10 Reasons You Should Never Have a Religion (Blog)

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

I believe this is a question that cannot be left unanswered but... I might be wrong. I see it as going down a path and at one moment the path divides in 2. You have to continue the journey. Which path do you choose?

If you consider yourself a true agnostic and consider that this question could be left unanswered, what is your view on the meaning of life? Does it have a meaning?

When I thought about it I tried to road map it, but I found it inadequate. I still think the basic V works the best

Gnostic -->Theist____Atheist <--- Gnostic
_____________\ ______/
______________\ ____/
_______________\ __/
______________Agnostic

ignore the ______, it auto reformated to the left and I had to put in the lines to show the shape.

You can find yourself gravitating more towards Theist and Atheism and still be agnostic. I think those lines represent a scale. When you reach the top, you are full blown gnostic.




As far as the meaning of life goes, I think Steve's writing exercise clears that up. It's a very personal question that yields a very personal answer. I think each individual is going to reach their own conclusion. I think those answers can change over time.

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

When I thought about it I tried to road map it, but I found it inadequate. I still think the basic V works the best

we might be talking more or less about the same thing. here is a nice representation of how I view things:

[Liminal Chris]

The only reason why I think its more of a V is because once you are a Gnostic, you are forced to choose a side. Gnosticism is knowing. You can't know without picking a side, or you don't actually know. Whereas in agnosticism, you intentionally don't pick any sides.

When I was thinking this through, I came up with the crude analogy of one perception of their phsyical appearance. Someone may look at their self in the mirror and say, I don't like how I look. I would change X and Y about myself because then I would be attractive. Their actions in public may reflect their lack of self-confidence.

On the other hand, there might be some people who look in the mirror and admire their own beauty. Wow, I am so good looking! People should love X and Y about me! This person's supreme confidence may be reflected in their actions.

However, there are other people that don't concern themselves with the mirror. They are who they are and don't let their perception of their physical appearace interfere with how they act. These people don't fall victim to the trap of being concerned with how others percieve them. These people often tend to be really fun people ^^ as they seem to act freer.


I know its really really crude, and obviously suffers some serious problems (such as gross over simplification and generalization and me being extremely tired^^), but it may do the trick.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

I believe this is a question that cannot be left unanswered but... I might be wrong. I see it as going down a path and at one moment the path divides in 2. You have to continue the journey. Which path do you choose?

If you consider yourself a true agnostic and consider that this question could be left unanswered, what is your view on the meaning of life? Does it have a meaning?

Different agnostics come to different conclusions on that one.

Personally, I think the meaning of life can be derived from life itself without having to speculate on the existence or non-existence of gods, goddesses, flying spaghetti monsters or invisible pink unicorns.

[Liveformx64]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

This quote rings true, and I thought it was relevant to this discussion.

Ironically the biggest argument against Christianity has always been the "Christian"

It has provided the fuel for this topic, and countless others.

[Vahid]

Of course when religion and spirituality makes money, most of those who have no religion become religious and spiritual. Even most of those who don't believe in spirit and "life at the other side" become psychic when they see that it can make money for them. So we can not blame religion. It is a money making highway for many people.

Who cares about God?

But the reality is ... religious or not, we all have to return to the same person that we have been before. Whether you know or don't know and you can see or can not see, a red rose is red and what we think has no effect in the real nature of things and meanings.

[Swann]

Originally Posted by GreenTea

Again, I agree with your points---but something that concerns me in my own issues with religion is that I sometimes observe myself falling into the trap of, for example, judging people who are judgemental. Sometimes I find myself "increasing the 'otherness' of others" by not seeing through their 'beliefs' to the Being within them that is one with the Being in me. I hope this makes sense.

These questions are really total projections of my own issues--I've been very judgemental of Christianity in particular and I've really made an effort to, for example, not squirm inside when I meet someone and they tell me they're a Christian. I've made some progress, but it bothers me that I am not more fully accepting....

Hello All,

I am new to this forum so Hi, glad to meet you all! The above quote was on page 1 of this thread, which is as far as I got before wanting to comment. My apologies in advance if you've moved on to other topics.

I think it's okay, and even necessary, to be judgmental, because judging, in the form of thinking critically, is how we decide what's best for ourselves. And the fact is that hierarchy exists, and some belief systems are better than others, "better" being defined as "more conducive to full personal development." In the hierarchy of belief systems, organized religion--which I lump into the category dogma--is quite unsophisticated. And you can determine this through a process of critical thought, observation, and honesty with yourself, something dogmatic believers cannot do (thus their dogmatism), in itself some proof of a more sophisticated belief system.

Many people have a problem with hierarchy, thinking it means not being fair and inclusive to all. But it's impossible to avoid hierarchy, as we are all on different rungs of the personal development ladder and that's just the way it is. So the more rational alternative is to make honest observations and sound decisions for yourself, while striving to understand the appeal of limiting beliefs and have compassion for those who practice them (or, more accurately, are stuck in them). Such a stance allows you to be accepting (inclusive) of people who practice dogmatic, limiting beliefs while still acknowledging their vast and tragic shortcomings. Again, something that practitioners of such belief systems are largely unable to do.

Great topic, great thread, and I am glad to be a part of this community. Thanks!

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Vahid

But the reality is ... religious or not, we all have to return to the same person that we have been before. Whether you know or don't know and you can see or can not see, a red rose is red and what we think has no effect in the real nature of things and meanings.

I totally get what you mean; but I'd say it does and it doesn't, that your perception as to the nature of reality, is in itself, part and parcel of the nature of reality.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

we might be talking more or less about the same thing. here is a nice representation of how I view things:

Can I be the dot in the middle of the picture?

[ctutt]

You seem to imply that "believing" in something is necessary to living a life on purpose, with love, fulfillment and happiness. Why is that?

[rodrigo]

Well, I didn't read every post in this thread, but here's a quick thought about getting a religion.

I don't have a religion and I don't like religions as they usually think they are: the final and ultimate truth. They are merely a set of beliefs. Some of those beliefs may rise your consciousness, some of them don't. Besides, I think that the mere act of believing that something (anything at all) is the ultimate truth is consciousness lowering. An ultimate truth makes you lazy to think, since it is all set and you don't have to do anything. Besides, it makes you to stop the exercise of doubting (the good one, not the bad one), that makes us try to find better answers.

That said, on the other hand I don't think that religion is a complete harm to society. We all have our set of beliefs, and I don't think any of us is perfectly correct. Religions serve as pre-defined beliefs set, for those who can't (or won't) yet create their own. See, I'm not saying that some are incapable of doing that. All I'm saying is that the world average counsciouness level is too low for us to expect that everyone should live "by themselves", without any help.

The problem with religion (as well as anything else) begins when we start to get too attached to it. We all strive to define ourselves, our identities. But every now and then (actually I think that happens more often than it should) we start to mistake who we are with what groups (including groups of beliefs) we fit in. That's when the "holy wars" begin - in any field of our lives -, when we start to think that criticizing or doubting the group is to do it to our very own selves.

As a friend of mine always says, religions are like bridges. Bridges are made to help you make the cross, it takes you from a point to another (hopefully the next one). You can like the bridge and be grateful for all the help it gave you. But that doesn't mean you have to live under the bridge and start fighting everyone who simply uses the bridge and then move on.

[jnnrr415]

Hi Steve, I've been reading your blog for a couple years and have always been impressed with the love and compassion with which you write. It's clear that you want to help others. Before I continue, I should say that I agree with the intent of your post -- I'm no longer religious and share many of the same sentiments. But this post seems to be full of anger, judgment of people who rely on their religion, and ridicule. I have known many people who have been lifted from the gutter of life by religion and turned their lives around. Is it right for me? No. Is it right for many "average intelligence" people who aren't quite brave enough to define their own path? I'd say it's often a lot better than nothing. I'm disappointed that you'd rail on these individuals just because they aren't part of the 1% (or less) of the population that feels secure enough to blaze their own path. My 2 cents...

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by jnnrr415

But this post seems to be full of anger, judgment of people who rely on their religion, and ridicule.

Ding!

That made it for me. I will never know the intention with which Steve wrote this article. But what I have just now learned what to take from it. Just because you aren't religious doesn't mean that you don't use the same poor tools that the religious use all the time.

Anger, judgment, and ridicule. Can be used by the devout and the atheistic and are not useful to personal development used either way.

[munish]

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

Some People in India have
made a saint out of Mahatma Gandhi .

Whereas he was a very religious person. He died after someone shot him ,when he was coming out of Birla temple after offering prayers at Birla temple , a famous temple in New Delhi.

Whereas the real people who contributed for the Home rule are long forgotten.

One of that real person was Annie Bessant.Founder of congress party in India.(which still rules the country)


She spent her entire life for the upliftment of the poor in India .

She began to write attacks on the churches and the way they controlled people's lives. In particular she attacked the status of the Church of England as a state-sponsored faith.
(Annie Besant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[muslim]

After reading the article “10 reasons you should never have a religion”, I want to begin by saying that everything that was mentioned condemns mainly the Christian religion. I understand that Steve and others are very skeptical about Christianity or religions in general. But I was a quite surprised that the religion of Islam was not talked about. I want to address the issues raised in the article using the teachings of Islam.
Steve you said that “Christianity is the worlds most popular religion”, this is incorrect. Recent statistics show that Islam is now the worlds leading religion. It is ranked No 1 having a population of 1.9 billion.
The word Islam means, submission to the one and only almighty god
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world due to the large number of converts entering Islam every single day. It is certainly the fastest growing in the west, at an alarming rate. I am a convert myself for the last 5 years
The prophet of Islam is ranked No. 1 most influential man is history, read “Michael H. Hart's book The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History”
Dear reader does this information pose a question in your mind.
Steve mentions that “the Old Testament and the New Testament in the Bible frequently contradict each other”, but have you considered the Quran, which its words have never been changed since it was reveal by almighty God. It is the only authentic scripture that exist today in its entire form. It is rated as the world’s most memorized book of recitation
Steve mentions that “If you want to talk to God, then communicate directly instead of using third-party intermediaries.” Actually in Islam we are ONLY allowed to communicate to God directly. As a matter of fact if we use intermediaries we are committing a major sin.
Steve mentions about catholic priest and how they are not allowed to marry. In Islam it is highly encouraged to marry and to establish a family. Celibacy is forbidden in Islam.
Steve mentions that “you aren’t still practicing the religion you happened to be born into?”. Well I was a strict catholic and now I am Muslim convert, and so are all my friends. As a matter of fact thousands and thousands of people are accepting the religion of Islam every day. Ask your self the question why???
And for those who believe that God made us in his image, this is absolute falsehood. God says in the Quran, “there is none like him and he is the all-hearer all –seeing”. We are not allowed to give the attributes of God to that of humans, or vice versa,
Dear reader, there is so much I can talk about here; I can keep going on and on. But it is your choice to research more into the religion of Islam. It is not on me to force my religion upon anyone, however everyone has a right to know the truth.
I agree with what Steve mentioned about Christianity but I don’t agree by making this general to all religions, until you look into Islam. We must always seek the truth even if it means travelling to space.

[muzzy]

Oh Muslim ... puhlease ...

Yadda yadda yadda

Quran, Bible, Torah ... whatever...

Humanity must WAKE UP and stop using religion as this curtain to hide behind. We need to take responsibility as individuals to commit to the whole. Why does our species rely so heavily on this "father figure" ?
I truly believe it is this "fear of death" that fuels religions of all kinds. Humanity must stop being so gullible and grow up and contribute to our earth without the religious interference on our development.

Good on you, Steve.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by muslim

Recent statistics show that Islam is now the worlds leading religion. It is ranked No 1 having a population of 1.9 billion.

Do you have a source for those statistics?
The 2006 figures I have seen (quoted on timesonline.co.uk on 31/3/08) give:

17.4% Catholic; 19.2% Muslim; but combined Christian denominations at 33%.

Originally Posted by muslim

but have you considered the Quran, which its words have never been changed since it was reveal by almighty God. It is the only authentic scripture that exist today in its entire form.

Not strictly correct. There were many 'korans' circulating after Mohammed's death, with differing texts.

[mlc82]

Found this in another forum and it made me laugh, because it's so true when it comes to laws/politics (and the usual persecution screams when a specific religion isn't catered to in them) in the US.

[Keith]

Muslim, I find it interesting that you've chosen the name "Muslim" - as though your religion were your entire identity - why is that?

Originally Posted by Cantando

Do you have a source for those statistics?
The 2006 figures I have seen (quoted on timesonline.co.uk on 31/3/08) give:
17.4% Catholic; 19.2% Muslim; but combined Christian denominations at 33%.

He's referring to the same figures. Catholicism was the world's most populous religion, now Islam is.

OTOH, I'm not sure why different versions of Christianity are counted separately but not Shi'ite and Sunni - Catholics are still #1 if you compare them to just Sunni Islam.

Either way, popularity is not the same thing as correctness.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

That's because Jesus' teachings make up perhaps 5% of the Bible. The bulk of the rest is the Old Testament and the teachings of Paul (a born-again evangelical Christian who never met Jesus).

Originally Posted by munish

Some People in India have made a saint out of Mahatma Gandhi .

Quite bizarre given that he was Hindu.

On the other hand, if it means people are moving towards a broader definition of who and what is 'holy' that can only be a good thing...

[freshwala]

wow, I never knew steve had it in him, welldone for speaking your mind on such a sensative subject

power to the peoples

[Arawn]

1) Spirituality for dummies.

If you have the awareness level of a snail, and your thinking is mired in shame and guilt (with perhaps a twist of drug abuse or suicidal thinking)...

For reasonably intelligent people who aren’t suffering from major issues with low self-esteem, religion is ridiculously consciousness-lowering.

First and for most throwing insults and unfounded accusations at any group of people, religious or otherwise, makes your position and personal character very questionable. My personal stance is, "I am who I am. If you accept me, fine. If you do not accept me, fine."

When you subscribe to a religion...Religion is the off-switch of the human mind.

I will make my own choices no matter what they tell me. Also explain one of the previous leaders of our church Henry Eyring who was First Counselor in the First Presidency of The Church. He received his doctoral degree in Chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley in 1927.
Henry Eyring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
He also developed the Eyring equation
Eyring equation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yes he is just one, but I can provide you with many more.

Leave the mythology behind...Your intellect is a better instrument of spiritual growth than any religious teachings.

Just to mention a couple things that my church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teach and promote:
One of the statements that the Deacons have to say, at the beginning of every session is, "Obtain as much education as possible."
There is also the Church's Perpetual Education Fund. No you do not have to be a member to receive this.

2) Loss of spiritual depth perception.

One of the worst mistakes you can make in life is to attach your identity to any particular religion...

Yes I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I will tell you what is important to me in order: My wife, my baby boy, my wife’s parents, my best friend Chad, Chad’s wife, Chad’s daughter, my church. Why did I not mention my parents; because they are passed away.

Your <perspective> stereo vision is only from one church, the Catholic Church. I have been in six different churches. Then 15 years later I learned of this church and four years later I joined.

3) Engineered obedience training.

Religions are authoritarian hierarchies designed to dominate your free will.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches "free-agency."

...They’re among the most powerful instruments of social conditioning. They operate by eroding your trust in your own intellect...

Again we are to obtain as much education as possible. There is the Church's Perpetual Education Fund, and free-agency.

4) Toilet-bowl time management.

...flushing much of your precious life down the drain with little or nothing to show for it.

You believe that I would have “little or nothing to show for it” if I obtain as much education as possible? My working on my Masters in Aerospace Engineering is this a waste time and the Perpetual Education Fund pays for some of it?

First, you’ll waste a lot of time filling your head with useless nonsense.

Try studying archeology. I can tell you exactly what year David defeated Goliath. I can tell you how many children Goliath had and what their names were. Verifiable archeological evidence goes far beyond David and Goliath.

5) Support your local pedophile.

In addition to being a serious waste of time, religious practice can also be a huge waste of money.

For starters when you donate to a major religion, you support its expansion, which means you’re facilitating the enslavement of your fellow humans.

The Bishop’s store house offers food to those in need. No, you do not need to be a member. We help all who are in need.

Why aren’t Catholic priests allowed to marry?

Good question. Our bishops are required to have a wife and children. I will let you look this up in the New Testament.

6) Incest is best.

Religions frequently promote inbred social networks. You’re encouraged to spend more time with people who share the same belief system while disengaging from those with incompatible beliefs.

That is quite the stretch.
We teach to love thy neighbor and thy enemy.

7) Idiocy or hypocrisy – pick one.

When you subscribe to an established religion, you have only two options. You can become an idiot, or you can become a hypocrite.

Again, you are the one who needs to study.

First, there’s the idiocy route...Accept that the earth is only 10,000 years old.

First study Ancient Hebrew. There are three translations. The fist is a 12 hour day; Sun rise to sun down. The second is a 24 hour day; Sun down to sun down. The third is a “period of time.” Examine the six days of creation and look at each “day” as a “period of time.” The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints does not have a stance for or against evolution.

...with no more than 9,000 of them quoted from your favorite great book.

Ok, I will not quote my favorite book, but I will give you the name of it, so you can go to whatever book store you prefer and purchase a copy for yourself. My favorite book is Azure Bonds by Jeff Grubb and Kate Novak.

8) Inherited falsehood.

Please tell me you aren’t still practicing the religion you happened to be born into?

Many religions are just a mish-mash of what came before. For example, Christianity is largely based on pagan rituals.

That comment is only partially true. Jesus Christ was not born December 25th. Also there was no year zero. He was born April first five B.C. In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. Jesus Christ was a real and living being, not some fictional character: FRONTLINE: from jesus to christ: jesus many faces: crucifixion | PBS

Is your religion based on the inspired word of God? No more than this article.

We do not teach that the Bible is the complete inerrant word of God. This can be verified by what has been discovered in the dead sea scrolls. Start by looking up the famous Isaiah scroll found in Comran Cave one.

9) Compassion in chains.

Religious rules and laws invariably hamper the development of conscience. This causes all sorts of problems like pointless violence and warfare. Those who preach nonviolence as a rule or law tend to be the most violent of all. Such people cannot be trusted because they’ll violate their proclaimed values with the weakest of excuses.

That is very a very narrow minded comment. Atheists have done this. Christianity has done this. Islam has done this. Judaism has done this. Secular/Nonreligious have done this. This list goes on!

10) Faith is fear.

Religion is the systematic marketing of fear.

Blessed are the poor (donate heavily). Blessed are the meek (obey). Blessed are the humble (don’t question authority).

The leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints have said, "Do not only listen to what we have to say. Pray. Ask Heavenly Father, so you may know for yourself."

Blessed are the hungry (make us rich until it hurts).

Again, the Bishop's store house.

Blessed are the merciful (if you catch us doing something wrong, let it go).

As above, they WILL be excommunicated!

Blessed are the pure of heart (because your brains are switched off). Blessed are the timid, the cowardly, the fearful. Blessed are those who give us their power and become our slaves. Muahahaha!

Again, "free-agency."

That’s the kind of nonsense religion pushes on people. They train you to turn your back on courage, strength, and conscious living. This is stupidity, not divinity.

You have absolutely no idea what kind of courage and strength I have. I will provide for and protect my family, no matter what!

Religion will teach you to fear being different, to fear standing up for yourself, and to fear being an independent thinker. It will erode your self-trust by explaining why you’re unable to successfully manage life on your own terms:

Throughout school I was an Outcast. No one would accept me as part of the Jocks, Nerds, Preppies, geeks, rich kids, poor kids, etc. I just accepted that. I am ME!

When you practice faith instead of conscious living, you live under a cloak of fear...

Fear of what?

Faith is the coward’s substitute for courage...If you’re afraid or unwilling to assume total responsibility for your life, you’re a perfect match for religion.

That is completely preposterous! Does it make me a “coward” that I want to go and explore outer space. It comforts my wife to know, beyond any shadow of doubt, that I have the “courage” to protect her and my baby boy, even with my life if is so be required! Can you honestly do the same?

...If you find yourself frustrated because you’re too afraid to follow your dreams...

It has been my dream to go to space since the fifth grade. And I am working on getting my Masters in Aerospace Engineering.

Dump the safety-in-numbers silliness.

I take comfort in doing what I what to do, learning what I want to learn, going where I want to go. Do you suffer from haphephobia?

[Victor Vikingr]

Arawn has some good points. Much of this post is generalization, and even though you (Steve) probably just wants to wake people up, being a human alarm clock and all, I'd say you have made lots of better attempts at it. The post seems very judgmental and unfriendly.

I agree with Arawn in that your experience with Christianity seems to stem mostly from Catholicism, and I have to admit I agree on several points in that case, primarily related to rules and shallow spirituality. However, Christianity comes in all shapes and sizes, and I was amazed to find out how different the variations are. In my opinion, it's actually several different religions (depending on your definition, of course).

I know it's an old post, but I'll still answer this question:

Does this mean we can’t be friends anymore?

Of course it doesn't! I love you just as much as before. Jesus does too.

By the way, don't you say yourself that hanging out with people who support your path is a good idea? I don't see why that should be different here.

[Carl Carlson IV]

Wow, someone sure sounds offended by someone else challenging their beliefs. What is the point of dissecting the entire article? What needs are you trying to satisfy?

[Goliath]

Touche Steve!

I had a good laugh reading your article.

I am born Roman Catholic and have forsaken that spiritually retarding practice. I have also experienced the very same things you mention in your article.

"My God" lead me out of that foolish dogma.

It's refreshing to listen to like minded people, as opposed to the fearful rebuttals of deprived minds.

You've inspired me.

Thanks!

[Goliath]

Oh! And one more thing...

To all you would be Christians out there.

Have any of you ever met the man (Jesus) personally?

Thought so.

[Lucidism]

Meeting Jesus personally (in the conventional way you meet someone) is not a prerequisite to believe in Christianity, so your point is moot.

Christians believe they build a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through prayer and experience, not by meeting at Starbucks and shaking hands.

[Goliath]

Hey, did you know that Joseph Smith was a 33 degree Freemason? Oh...and so was Charles Taze Russel. The founder Of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
The secret rituals perfomed in their temples are all freemasonic.

Don't those guys worship the Baphomet?

Just something i heard that's all.


God Bless!

[James81]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Oh! And one more thing...

To all you would be Christians out there.

Have any of you ever met the man (Jesus) personally?

Thought so.

Whew, you really showed us.

[Elija11]

very nice site...

i'm looking forward to doing some more reading...

[Carl Carlson IV]

Originally Posted by Goliath

Oh! And one more thing...

To all you would be Christians out there.

Have any of you ever met the man (Jesus) personally?

Thought so.

I've never met Steve personally either but I'm pretty sure he exists.

But then again, there is quite a bit more evidence to support my belief that Steve exists compared to Jesus.