10 Reasons You Should Never Have a Religion (Blog)

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

I believe this is a question that cannot be left unanswered but... I might be wrong. I see it as going down a path and at one moment the path divides in 2. You have to continue the journey. Which path do you choose?

If you consider yourself a true agnostic and consider that this question could be left unanswered, what is your view on the meaning of life? Does it have a meaning?

When I thought about it I tried to road map it, but I found it inadequate. I still think the basic V works the best

Gnostic -->Theist____Atheist <--- Gnostic
_____________\ ______/
______________\ ____/
_______________\ __/
______________Agnostic

ignore the ______, it auto reformated to the left and I had to put in the lines to show the shape.

You can find yourself gravitating more towards Theist and Atheism and still be agnostic. I think those lines represent a scale. When you reach the top, you are full blown gnostic.




As far as the meaning of life goes, I think Steve's writing exercise clears that up. It's a very personal question that yields a very personal answer. I think each individual is going to reach their own conclusion. I think those answers can change over time.

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

When I thought about it I tried to road map it, but I found it inadequate. I still think the basic V works the best

we might be talking more or less about the same thing. here is a nice representation of how I view things:

[Liminal Chris]

The only reason why I think its more of a V is because once you are a Gnostic, you are forced to choose a side. Gnosticism is knowing. You can't know without picking a side, or you don't actually know. Whereas in agnosticism, you intentionally don't pick any sides.

When I was thinking this through, I came up with the crude analogy of one perception of their phsyical appearance. Someone may look at their self in the mirror and say, I don't like how I look. I would change X and Y about myself because then I would be attractive. Their actions in public may reflect their lack of self-confidence.

On the other hand, there might be some people who look in the mirror and admire their own beauty. Wow, I am so good looking! People should love X and Y about me! This person's supreme confidence may be reflected in their actions.

However, there are other people that don't concern themselves with the mirror. They are who they are and don't let their perception of their physical appearace interfere with how they act. These people don't fall victim to the trap of being concerned with how others percieve them. These people often tend to be really fun people ^^ as they seem to act freer.


I know its really really crude, and obviously suffers some serious problems (such as gross over simplification and generalization and me being extremely tired^^), but it may do the trick.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

I believe this is a question that cannot be left unanswered but... I might be wrong. I see it as going down a path and at one moment the path divides in 2. You have to continue the journey. Which path do you choose?

If you consider yourself a true agnostic and consider that this question could be left unanswered, what is your view on the meaning of life? Does it have a meaning?

Different agnostics come to different conclusions on that one.

Personally, I think the meaning of life can be derived from life itself without having to speculate on the existence or non-existence of gods, goddesses, flying spaghetti monsters or invisible pink unicorns.

[Liveformx64]

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

This quote rings true, and I thought it was relevant to this discussion.

Ironically the biggest argument against Christianity has always been the "Christian"

It has provided the fuel for this topic, and countless others.

[Vahid]

Of course when religion and spirituality makes money, most of those who have no religion become religious and spiritual. Even most of those who don't believe in spirit and "life at the other side" become psychic when they see that it can make money for them. So we can not blame religion. It is a money making highway for many people.

Who cares about God?

But the reality is ... religious or not, we all have to return to the same person that we have been before. Whether you know or don't know and you can see or can not see, a red rose is red and what we think has no effect in the real nature of things and meanings.

[Swann]

Originally Posted by GreenTea

Again, I agree with your points---but something that concerns me in my own issues with religion is that I sometimes observe myself falling into the trap of, for example, judging people who are judgemental. Sometimes I find myself "increasing the 'otherness' of others" by not seeing through their 'beliefs' to the Being within them that is one with the Being in me. I hope this makes sense.

These questions are really total projections of my own issues--I've been very judgemental of Christianity in particular and I've really made an effort to, for example, not squirm inside when I meet someone and they tell me they're a Christian. I've made some progress, but it bothers me that I am not more fully accepting....

Hello All,

I am new to this forum so Hi, glad to meet you all! The above quote was on page 1 of this thread, which is as far as I got before wanting to comment. My apologies in advance if you've moved on to other topics.

I think it's okay, and even necessary, to be judgmental, because judging, in the form of thinking critically, is how we decide what's best for ourselves. And the fact is that hierarchy exists, and some belief systems are better than others, "better" being defined as "more conducive to full personal development." In the hierarchy of belief systems, organized religion--which I lump into the category dogma--is quite unsophisticated. And you can determine this through a process of critical thought, observation, and honesty with yourself, something dogmatic believers cannot do (thus their dogmatism), in itself some proof of a more sophisticated belief system.

Many people have a problem with hierarchy, thinking it means not being fair and inclusive to all. But it's impossible to avoid hierarchy, as we are all on different rungs of the personal development ladder and that's just the way it is. So the more rational alternative is to make honest observations and sound decisions for yourself, while striving to understand the appeal of limiting beliefs and have compassion for those who practice them (or, more accurately, are stuck in them). Such a stance allows you to be accepting (inclusive) of people who practice dogmatic, limiting beliefs while still acknowledging their vast and tragic shortcomings. Again, something that practitioners of such belief systems are largely unable to do.

Great topic, great thread, and I am glad to be a part of this community. Thanks!

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Vahid

But the reality is ... religious or not, we all have to return to the same person that we have been before. Whether you know or don't know and you can see or can not see, a red rose is red and what we think has no effect in the real nature of things and meanings.

I totally get what you mean; but I'd say it does and it doesn't, that your perception as to the nature of reality, is in itself, part and parcel of the nature of reality.

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

we might be talking more or less about the same thing. here is a nice representation of how I view things:

Can I be the dot in the middle of the picture?

[ctutt]

You seem to imply that "believing" in something is necessary to living a life on purpose, with love, fulfillment and happiness. Why is that?

[rodrigo]

Well, I didn't read every post in this thread, but here's a quick thought about getting a religion.

I don't have a religion and I don't like religions as they usually think they are: the final and ultimate truth. They are merely a set of beliefs. Some of those beliefs may rise your consciousness, some of them don't. Besides, I think that the mere act of believing that something (anything at all) is the ultimate truth is consciousness lowering. An ultimate truth makes you lazy to think, since it is all set and you don't have to do anything. Besides, it makes you to stop the exercise of doubting (the good one, not the bad one), that makes us try to find better answers.

That said, on the other hand I don't think that religion is a complete harm to society. We all have our set of beliefs, and I don't think any of us is perfectly correct. Religions serve as pre-defined beliefs set, for those who can't (or won't) yet create their own. See, I'm not saying that some are incapable of doing that. All I'm saying is that the world average counsciouness level is too low for us to expect that everyone should live "by themselves", without any help.

The problem with religion (as well as anything else) begins when we start to get too attached to it. We all strive to define ourselves, our identities. But every now and then (actually I think that happens more often than it should) we start to mistake who we are with what groups (including groups of beliefs) we fit in. That's when the "holy wars" begin - in any field of our lives -, when we start to think that criticizing or doubting the group is to do it to our very own selves.

As a friend of mine always says, religions are like bridges. Bridges are made to help you make the cross, it takes you from a point to another (hopefully the next one). You can like the bridge and be grateful for all the help it gave you. But that doesn't mean you have to live under the bridge and start fighting everyone who simply uses the bridge and then move on.

[jnnrr415]

Hi Steve, I've been reading your blog for a couple years and have always been impressed with the love and compassion with which you write. It's clear that you want to help others. Before I continue, I should say that I agree with the intent of your post -- I'm no longer religious and share many of the same sentiments. But this post seems to be full of anger, judgment of people who rely on their religion, and ridicule. I have known many people who have been lifted from the gutter of life by religion and turned their lives around. Is it right for me? No. Is it right for many "average intelligence" people who aren't quite brave enough to define their own path? I'd say it's often a lot better than nothing. I'm disappointed that you'd rail on these individuals just because they aren't part of the 1% (or less) of the population that feels secure enough to blaze their own path. My 2 cents...

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by jnnrr415

But this post seems to be full of anger, judgment of people who rely on their religion, and ridicule.

Ding!

That made it for me. I will never know the intention with which Steve wrote this article. But what I have just now learned what to take from it. Just because you aren't religious doesn't mean that you don't use the same poor tools that the religious use all the time.

Anger, judgment, and ridicule. Can be used by the devout and the atheistic and are not useful to personal development used either way.

[munish]

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

Some People in India have
made a saint out of Mahatma Gandhi .

Whereas he was a very religious person. He died after someone shot him ,when he was coming out of Birla temple after offering prayers at Birla temple , a famous temple in New Delhi.

Whereas the real people who contributed for the Home rule are long forgotten.

One of that real person was Annie Bessant.Founder of congress party in India.(which still rules the country)


She spent her entire life for the upliftment of the poor in India .

She began to write attacks on the churches and the way they controlled people's lives. In particular she attacked the status of the Church of England as a state-sponsored faith.
(Annie Besant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

[muslim]

After reading the article “10 reasons you should never have a religion”, I want to begin by saying that everything that was mentioned condemns mainly the Christian religion. I understand that Steve and others are very skeptical about Christianity or religions in general. But I was a quite surprised that the religion of Islam was not talked about. I want to address the issues raised in the article using the teachings of Islam.
Steve you said that “Christianity is the worlds most popular religion”, this is incorrect. Recent statistics show that Islam is now the worlds leading religion. It is ranked No 1 having a population of 1.9 billion.
The word Islam means, submission to the one and only almighty god
Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world due to the large number of converts entering Islam every single day. It is certainly the fastest growing in the west, at an alarming rate. I am a convert myself for the last 5 years
The prophet of Islam is ranked No. 1 most influential man is history, read “Michael H. Hart's book The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History”
Dear reader does this information pose a question in your mind.
Steve mentions that “the Old Testament and the New Testament in the Bible frequently contradict each other”, but have you considered the Quran, which its words have never been changed since it was reveal by almighty God. It is the only authentic scripture that exist today in its entire form. It is rated as the world’s most memorized book of recitation
Steve mentions that “If you want to talk to God, then communicate directly instead of using third-party intermediaries.” Actually in Islam we are ONLY allowed to communicate to God directly. As a matter of fact if we use intermediaries we are committing a major sin.
Steve mentions about catholic priest and how they are not allowed to marry. In Islam it is highly encouraged to marry and to establish a family. Celibacy is forbidden in Islam.
Steve mentions that “you aren’t still practicing the religion you happened to be born into?”. Well I was a strict catholic and now I am Muslim convert, and so are all my friends. As a matter of fact thousands and thousands of people are accepting the religion of Islam every day. Ask your self the question why???
And for those who believe that God made us in his image, this is absolute falsehood. God says in the Quran, “there is none like him and he is the all-hearer all –seeing”. We are not allowed to give the attributes of God to that of humans, or vice versa,
Dear reader, there is so much I can talk about here; I can keep going on and on. But it is your choice to research more into the religion of Islam. It is not on me to force my religion upon anyone, however everyone has a right to know the truth.
I agree with what Steve mentioned about Christianity but I don’t agree by making this general to all religions, until you look into Islam. We must always seek the truth even if it means travelling to space.

[muzzy]

Oh Muslim ... puhlease ...

Yadda yadda yadda

Quran, Bible, Torah ... whatever...

Humanity must WAKE UP and stop using religion as this curtain to hide behind. We need to take responsibility as individuals to commit to the whole. Why does our species rely so heavily on this "father figure" ?
I truly believe it is this "fear of death" that fuels religions of all kinds. Humanity must stop being so gullible and grow up and contribute to our earth without the religious interference on our development.

Good on you, Steve.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by muslim

Recent statistics show that Islam is now the worlds leading religion. It is ranked No 1 having a population of 1.9 billion.

Do you have a source for those statistics?
The 2006 figures I have seen (quoted on timesonline.co.uk on 31/3/08) give:

17.4% Catholic; 19.2% Muslim; but combined Christian denominations at 33%.

Originally Posted by muslim

but have you considered the Quran, which its words have never been changed since it was reveal by almighty God. It is the only authentic scripture that exist today in its entire form.

Not strictly correct. There were many 'korans' circulating after Mohammed's death, with differing texts.

[mlc82]

Found this in another forum and it made me laugh, because it's so true when it comes to laws/politics (and the usual persecution screams when a specific religion isn't catered to in them) in the US.

[Keith]

Muslim, I find it interesting that you've chosen the name "Muslim" - as though your religion were your entire identity - why is that?

Originally Posted by Cantando

Do you have a source for those statistics?
The 2006 figures I have seen (quoted on timesonline.co.uk on 31/3/08) give:
17.4% Catholic; 19.2% Muslim; but combined Christian denominations at 33%.

He's referring to the same figures. Catholicism was the world's most populous religion, now Islam is.

OTOH, I'm not sure why different versions of Christianity are counted separately but not Shi'ite and Sunni - Catholics are still #1 if you compare them to just Sunni Islam.

Either way, popularity is not the same thing as correctness.

Originally Posted by Liveformx64

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." - Mahatma Ghandi.

That's because Jesus' teachings make up perhaps 5% of the Bible. The bulk of the rest is the Old Testament and the teachings of Paul (a born-again evangelical Christian who never met Jesus).

Originally Posted by munish

Some People in India have made a saint out of Mahatma Gandhi .

Quite bizarre given that he was Hindu.

On the other hand, if it means people are moving towards a broader definition of who and what is 'holy' that can only be a good thing...

[freshwala]

wow, I never knew steve had it in him, welldone for speaking your mind on such a sensative subject

power to the peoples