10 Reasons You Should Never Have a Religion (Blog)

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Nice analysis Natsu.

That's pretty much what Jefferson did with the Jefferson Bible, isn't it?

Tried to make the Bible into a coherent, Gospel centric version.

Tolstoy did it too: Gospel in Brief

[wolfgang]

What bone was taken to make Eve?

Scholars give Scripture a spin - USATODAY.com

[MidasGirl]

What I find interesting whenever you start to have a discussion with christians (and other religionists) is that they quickly latch onto quoting the bible (and other books for the other religions). As if you are supposed to be so awed that they have this incredible manual dropped on their lap by Mr. God himself. Little do they realize it is the best way to get people to 'tune them out'. Who cares if the bible says so? Here's a clue: ONLY YOU!

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I take issue when people when they say they believe the Bible. I think that's a meaningless statement.

Believe what exactly? Which parts?



What parts are relevant to you?

I take issue with you Dan because you believe the Master Gardener's Handbook on roses. I planted a rose bush and it died.

Sound reasonable? Of course not.

I believe all of it. It's all relevant. The Beatitudes are more relevant than Leviticus, but it all matters.

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Hey, Jefferson said most of the Bible a "Dung Hill."

Calling a spade a spade is not hypocrisy.

The quote given by Jefferson and the corner you're trying to paint him in are not one in the same. Good try - but fail.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Kent F

I take issue with you Dan because you believe the Master Gardener's Handbook on roses. I planted a rose bush and it died.

Sound reasonable? Of course not.

I believe all of it. It's all relevant. The Beatitudes are more relevant than Leviticus, but it all matters.

The difference is, the Gardener's handbook can't be interpreted as God saying to kill all the Jews. Or all the Arabs. Or all the Muslims. Or all the blacks. The Bible can.

If you think that's some crazy, fringe belief, look at who is accepting Hagee's endorsement. Someone who could become the primary policy maker in the country.


When you say you believe everything in the Bible, you are saying you believe:

1) That it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
2) In committing genocide based on race (Samuel 15:2-3)
3) That God wants war (Exodus 15:3)
4) In committing genocide based on ethnicity as long as you spare the virgins.(Numbers 31)
5) In killing anyone who worships a different god or who worships differently. (Deuteronomy 13:6-16)
6) In killing disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law. (Mark 7:9)
7) In killing anyone who refuses to be ruled by Jesus. (Luke 19:22-27)


Saying you believe all those things is a lie.

If you really held all those beliefs you would be in jail right now for murdering just about everyone you met.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

The difference is, the Gardener's handbook can't be interpreted as God saying to kill all the Jews. The Bible can.

If you think that's some crazy, fringe belief, look at who is accepting Hagee's endorsement. Someone who could become the primary policy maker in the country.

McCain rejected Hagee's endorsement and Hagee retracted it.

Also, Hagee is not for killing Jews. I mean, the man is insane, but he believes they are God's chosen people. He simply believes (and it's Biblical) that the tragedies that have befallen the Jews are a result of God's punishment.

[Liminal Chris]

seems pretty logical to me

[Natsu]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

However, if you have to filter the Divine word of God, are you a true believer at that point (in the institutional sense)?

Well, for that you'd have to think the Bible is fully divine and the work of God, and I don't think that's necessary. The conquest of Jericho and the massacre of the medianites aren't very divine, they seem mere human wars.
It also depends on what you call "a true believer". My mother doesn't go to church, but she likes Jesus' teachings. I'd call my mother a truer believer than Ann Coulter (the very embodiment of compassión, isn't she? ), who is constantly claiming she's a Christian.

Like Steve said, you are sitting on both sides of the fence as an apologist.

As I said, because I don't think "ekklesia" means the catholic church, or the orthodox, or the episcopalians, or no other church, but it means "assembly", I don't mind which "assembly" people go to, and I don't think it hypocritical if people don't follow them to the letter, because nowhere in the bible it is said that you should follow any person to the letter.

Steve says, and you seem to think, that if a man goes to church in his neighbourhood and likes it, and meets nice people there, and feels comfortable there, but doesn't follow the exact orders of that church hierarchy (such as Catholic, Evangelist, Baptist, Adventist or whatever), he is being a hypocrite or an idiot. He is an idiot if he is ignorant of what he follows and he is being brainwashed. He is a hypocrite if he doesn't feel right there, or if he feels that, for example, using contraceptives, he is breaking the rules. But if he goes to that church because he's comfortable there, and doesn't follow the rule about contraceptives because he read the book and found out they aren't forbidden, then he wouldn't be either. He would just go to that church and to that assembly of people because he would like the feeling there.

I will grant you that most people will label themselves "catholic", "evangelist" or simply "christian" or whatever, and many of them will be ignorant (idiocy and ignorance are not the same), or hipocrites. But some of them may be there by a conscious choice.

What I mean... going to a catholic church and that may not mean you approve of what the Pope and high Vatican hyerarchy do. You may just feel comfortable around those people, and what I meant is that, as long as it is an informed decision, it will be OK with me. And I don't find hypocritical to go to a town catholic church and respect the priest there, and at the same time not obey the high hyerarchy, for the basic reason that the gospels talk of an "ekklesia" or "assembly", not of an institution. I never liked the church, but if someone finds a community in which he likes to be, I see no reason why he can't choose it willingly, and not be neither ignorant nor hypocrite.


I hope I made my point clear. Though I have to grant you that the religious people who make a fully informed choice are not in the majority, or there wouldn't be a 28% of creationists in America.

What I meant is I respect any choice as long as it's informed and conscious.

[Natsu]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Nice analysis Natsu.

That's pretty much what Jefferson did with the Jefferson Bible, isn't it?

I don't know about the Jefferson Bible, I just arrived to my own conclusions. But frankly, anyone who reads the Bible with an open mind and a bit of historical knowledge will get to the same place.

Something that really astonishes me is how little informed people are about Christianity. I mean, it has shaped the Western world inmensely. We count the years considering the time we think Jesus was born (and we've missed by a few years, apparently). In fact, the whole world, including now China and Japan, count their years since Jesus was supposedly born... And we don't get enough info about it at school. One would think it is an important historical theme, to be discussed as scientifically as possible. You know, on grounds of it being one of the pillars of the Western civilization (the other two being Greek-Roman culture and Germanic drive).

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

The difference is, the Gardener's handbook can't be interpreted as God saying to kill all the Jews. Or all the Arabs. Or all the Muslims. Or all the blacks. The Bible can.

If you think that's some crazy, fringe belief, look at who is accepting Hagee's endorsement. Someone who could become the primary policy maker in the country.


When you say you believe everything in the Bible, you are saying you believe:

1) That it's OK to own slaves, provided they are strangers or heathens. (Leviticus 25:44-46)
2) In committing genocide based on race (Samuel 15:2-3)
3) That God wants war (Exodus 15:3)
4) In committing genocide based on ethnicity as long as you spare the virgins.(Numbers 31)
5) In killing anyone who worships a different god or who worships differently. (Deuteronomy 13:6-16)
6) In killing disobedient children as prescribed by Old Testament law. (Mark 7:9)
7) In killing anyone who refuses to be ruled by Jesus. (Luke 19:22-27)


Saying you believe all those things is a lie.

If you really held all those beliefs you would be in jail right now for murdering just about everyone you met.

Jesus fulfilled the OT law. The Beatitudes in Matt. 5 state if anyone is even angry with his brother is subject to judgement. Anger and malice are no-no's with Jesus.

You have an incorrect interpretration of both Mark. 7 and Luke 19 - and no, I'm not going get into a verse by verse Bible debate with you. Suffice it to say Luke 19 is a Parable and needs some good intrepretive teaching to go along with it for your literalists. Jesus said many times - "those that don't believe me or my words cannot comprehend them."

Enjoy the back and forth Dan and I'm happy to further discuss Steve's toxic attitude toward religious folk - but, seriously, I'm not going to debate an agnostic or atheist - whichever you are - on the Bible.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

What bone was taken to make Eve?

Scholars give Scripture a spin - USATODAY.com

Ah yes - the Baculum! What an interesting bone!

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Kent F

Enjoy the back and forth Dan and I'm happy to further discuss Steve's toxic attitude toward religious folk - but, seriously, I'm not going to debate an agnostic or atheist - whichever you are - on the Bible.

It says an awful lot about your beliefs that you refuse to discuss them. You've just said the only thing you are willing to discuss, just like when we started talking, is Steve's tone.

Could you write an article called "Ten Reasons to Have a Religion" so I know where you stand on it?

You say the Bible inspires you, but then you won't say how, or what parts inspire you, or what loving actions or avenues in life the Bible has opened up for you. You won't even say how you're personally helping the downtrodden, which is something you mentioned, though that really has nothing thing to do with religion anyway.

It sounds like you are basically just scared of Hell. Is that the main reason you believe? Because you'll go to Hell if you don't?

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Kent F

Anger and malice are no-no's with Jesus.

True no-no...

the commandment of non-resistance to violence by force is one of the most important teachings of Christ... and in the same time the most ignored.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

It says an awful lot about your beliefs that you refuse to discuss them. You've just said the only thing you are willing to discuss, just like when we started talking, is Steve's tone.

Could you write an article called "Ten Reasons to Have a Religion" so I know where you stand on it?

and then follow it up with a post that says - I don't really own these beliefs, it's just a perspective (like Steve did) that I don't take as part of my identity so defending myself over this belief is not something I'm interested in.

Maybe refusing to discuss a belief is that he doesn't "own" them.

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

It says an awful lot about your beliefs that you refuse to discuss them. You've just said the only thing you are willing to discuss, just like when we started talking, is Steve's tone.

Could you write an article called "Ten Reasons to Have a Religion" so I know where you stand on it?

You say the Bible inspires you, but then you won't say how, or what parts inspire you, or what loving actions or avenues in life the Bible has opened up for you. You won't even say how you're personally helping the downtrodden, which is something you mentioned, though that really has nothing thing to do with religion anyway.

It sounds like you are basically just scared of Hell. Is that the main reason you believe? Because you'll go to Hell if you don't?

Dan - c'mon man - tone or delivery is 99% of communication dude! Do you have kids? Try this out - "hey moron, you need to do better in English tomorrow."

Nice job of pigeon-holing me into your Class C (or is it B?) of Christian. Yes, I must be one of those "scared of Hell" Christians based on some nonsense you've dreamed up.

Other than that, your request is reasonable - just not something I have time for this week. I'll keep the invitation open if you don't mind - and see how this weekend looks.

Oh, boy - am I ever looking forward to seeing what label I can be attached to next.

Take care.

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

True no-no...

the commandment of non-resistance to violence by force is one of the most important teachings of Christ... and in the same time the most ignored.

Agreed - a significant percentage of Christians - including Pres. Bush - fail in the Pacifism category. But, clearly, Jesus was a Pacifist.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Kent F

Dan - c'mon man - tone or delivery is 99% of communication dude! Do you have kids? Try this out - "hey moron, you need to do better in English tomorrow."

Nice job of pigeon-holing me into your Class C (or is it B?) of Christian. Yes, I must be one of those "scared of Hell" Christians based on some nonsense you've dreamed up.

Other than that, your request is reasonable - just not something I have time for this week. I'll keep the invitation open if you don't mind - and see how this weekend looks.

Oh, boy - am I ever looking forward to seeing what label I can be attached to next.

Take care.

Could you at least give us a glimpse of how or why the Bible inspires you?

All you're doing is attacking Dan's question, dismissing his question with sarcastic 'playfulness' and saying "take care" to top it with a cherry.

We're just curious as to what we can glean from your viewpoint, as I'm not likely to be found reading a thousand page book of poorly written archaic fiction.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Kent F

Dan - c'mon man - tone or delivery is 99% of communication dude! Do you have kids? Try this out - "hey moron, you need to do better in English tomorrow."

No kids yet. I do keep trying to get pregnant though, so we'll just have to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Kent F

Nice job of pigeon-holing me into your Class C (or is it B?) of Christian. Yes, I must be one of those "scared of Hell" Christians based on some nonsense you've dreamed up.

Not trying to pigeon-hole you. Just curious about your perspective.

From my perspective, believing in a God that would bane people to Hell is just crazy.

You have to believe that good equals evil for that to make sense. And I don't believe that.

Originally Posted by Kent F

Other than that, your request is reasonable - just not something I have time for this week. I'll keep the invitation open if you don't mind - and see how this weekend looks.

Thanks. I do think it's reasonable to discuss the merits of holding certain beliefs, regardless of what they are.

I'm all for spirituality, peacefulness, ethical behavior, etc. I just don't see organized religion as necessarily moving people towards that brand of harmonious living.

Too often, a belief in Hell makes Christians want to send anyone they don't like there. Know what I mean?

Originally Posted by Kent F

Oh, boy - am I ever looking forward to seeing what label I can be attached to next.

No labels. Just trying to figure out what your real beliefs are. Since you won't tell me I've just been guessing.

[SomeRandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Kent F

Jesus fulfilled the OT law.

So there was a time, before the birth of Jesus, that the things listed by Dan were ok? Then Jesus fulfilled the OT law, so those things are no longer acceptable? Does that accurately describe your stance?

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

From my perspective, believing in a God that would bane people to Hell is just crazy.

Heaven and Hell are distractions, at least in my view, from the real goal which is to manifest God's Love in the NOW.

Worry for tomorrow is evil because it fosters fear... and fear, as we all know, is the path to the Dark Side. Fear is the root of all violence. Fear leads to anger anger leads to manipulation. Angry people are easy to be manipulated. And then anger leads to hate.... and hate... leads to suffering.

[Kent F]

The Bible inspires me to:

1) Show unconditional love towards others
2) Expect the best and receive it
3) Be grateful for the abundance around me
4) Find the best in others
5) Treat others with dignity and respect
6) Not be consumed with worry or fear
7) Understand there is an eternal home for me that will have no fear, hatred, jealousy, envy, pain or suffering
8) Be the best Parent I can be
9) Not be consumed with stuff
10) Not be disappointed in the temporary
11) Rely on the spiritual plane, not the emotional or physical
12) Stick with a committment
13) Stand for the poor, the oppressed and the downtrodden
14) Give generously to others
15) Understand the concepts of grace, mercy and reconciliation
16) Understand that people screw up, but they're still ok
17) Understand there are evil forces roaming the Earth
19) Understand those evil forces will not be victorious
20) To see God's Spirit moving in me and through me
21) See there are all kinds of whacky new ideas all the time that are temporal.
22) See that I need to help others
23) Be generous toward others
24) Not judge others
25) Not call others names
26) Treat others as I would hope and expect to be treated
27) Live on a higher plane than those that have no hope in the eternal
28) Forgive others
29) Seek forgiveness from others when I wrong them
30) Act morally and ethically in matters of trust
31) Be committed to my spouse in a monogamous relationship
32) Treat my parents with respect and take care of them
33) Run from evil
34) Know right from wrong
35) Understand the temptations of evil
36) Understand I have grace and redemption even though I fail
37) See hurting people in the world
38) Help hurting people


More coming later, but that's a decent start.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by pdamoc

Heaven and Hell are distractions, at least in my view, from the real goal which is to manifest God's Love in the NOW.

Worry for tomorrow is evil because it fosters fear... and fear, as we all know, is the path to the Dark Side. Fear is the root of all violence. Fear leads to anger anger leads to manipulation. Angry people are easy to be manipulated. And then anger leads to hate.... and hate... leads to suffering.

I never understood this phrase. How does God (an infinite being) have anthropomorphic emotions? Could you perhaps explain?




For Kent F. What is the intentionality or motivation behind that list? I appreicate your list, many of those things I try (and struggle) to implement into my daily life. However what I don't get (and perhaps I am wrong) is the seemingly illogical attachment to the book? Obviously, I love philosophy. I love reading Plato, I love reading Aristotle, I love reading Kant (yes even Kant), I love reading Nietzche. I believe they help me do all those things on your list. However, I love/believe their ideas, not the books themselves.

I guess what I am getting at is why do religious people take the bible and the ideas in the bible as synomous.

[Kent F]

Part II
The Bible inspires me to:

39) Live within my means
40) Give thanks for my daily food
41) Pay my bills
42) Don't live on credit
43) Understand that excess credit is bad
44) Live honestly and fairly
45) Pay my taxes. I don't have to be happy about it either - which is nice.
46) Treat everyone equally
47) Appreciate the concept of time
48) Appreciate the concept of Seasons
49) Appreciate relationships with others
50) Understand the purpose of the Church

OK, that's it for at least half a day. More coming. I haven't even really touched on many of the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. I can see this list going into the 200 range very easily.

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I never understood this phrase. How does God (an infinite being) have anthropomorphic emotions? Could you perhaps explain?




For Kent F. What is the intentionality or motivation behind that list? I appreicate your list, many of those things I try (and struggle) to implement into my daily life. However what I don't get (and perhaps I am wrong) is the seemingly illogical attachment to the book? Obviously, I love philosophy. I love reading Plato, I love reading Aristotle, I love reading Kant (yes even Kant), I love reading Nietzche. I believe they help me do all those things on your list. However, I love/believe their ideas, not the books themselves.

I guess what I am getting at is why do religious people take the bible and the ideas in the bible as synomous.

I'm trying to keep on task and fairly basic I guess Chris.

How does the Bible inspire you?

I'm simply trying to answer the question. These are all things I've taken to heart from the Bible - and the Bible has helped me in each of these areas.

For example: Jesus says (Matt. 5:45)

...But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."

I take that literally. I am to be kind to all, even those who treat me crappy. Do Christians or "religious people" do a good job with that teaching? Not really - but that doesn't change the teaching.

I believe the Bible was written by man, but inspired by God. I do also read other things and am inspired by them. Love is the Killer App by Tim Sanders is a very moving, thought-provoking book I've read several times that also inspires me for example.

[Liminal Chris]

Originally Posted by Kent F

I believe the Bible was written by man, but inspired by God.

Thank you for the explination, and sorry for all the questions, but I have one more for you.


To me, this seems like an apparent contradition. I believe the Bible was written by man, so it has a historical context and is fallible. However, I believe it was inspired by God and is thus infallible?

Am I off on that?


I think the Bible just too often gets used as a crutch, an excuse for people not to stand on their own two feet.

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I never understood this phrase. How does God (an infinite being) have anthropomorphic emotions? Could you perhaps explain?

You are right, God is not something that can be described... as the Master said... "Every word, every image used for God is a distortion more than a description."

I guess that phrase revolves around my idea of the Future... my theory of what this world is and where is it suppose to be going...

In my view is more interesting for the world to evolve that to repeat doing the same stupid mistakes over and over again.

The way I view it, evolution of the human race requires fuel... and the most effective fuel there is.... is Love.

[pdamoc]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

I think the Bible just too often gets used as a crutch, an excuse for people not to stand on their own two feet.

The Bible is the finger pointing at the Moon.... people should be looking at the Moon, not at the finger... should use the guidance of the finger... but never forget their target, never stop looking for the Moon.

[Kent F]

Originally Posted by Liminal Chris

Thank you for the explination, and sorry for all the questions, but I have one more for you.


To me, this seems like an apparent contradition. I believe the Bible was written by man, so it has a historical context and is fallible. However, I believe it was inspired by God and is thus infallible?

Am I off on that?


I think the Bible just too often gets used as a crutch, an excuse for people not to stand on their own two feet.

Yes, I believe the users of the Bible are very fallible, and I think also many have misused the Bible through the history of man - that goes without saying. But, I do believe the writers were inspired by God in their writings.

I know one big difference I have with a non-believer is that I believe the teachings in the Bible are congruent with one seeking the most fulfillment in the here and now, and also for the eternal Spirit.

No problem with the question(s).

[Dan.Linehan]

Thanks for the reasons Kent. The things you wrote are spot on, as far as what lessons people should take away from the Bible.

Do you think churches are the best way to teach these lessons? Are these even the lessons that churches are really teaching?

It would be a really interesting social experiment, I think, to go to several dozen churches and record the sermons to see if they mention these same values that you just have.

If churches are out there telling people to celebrate life, to get along better, explaining how other religions aren't things to fear, teaching people to stay out of debt, etc., I'd be all for that. But I bet if you recorded ten sermons and analyzed the lessons, churches would be teaching something entirely different. In fact, I bet ten different Christian churches might be teaching ten different things, some of them contradictory.

I know it's a bit unfair to group all churches together when looking at this issue. Not all churches are the same, by any means. I realize that there are some very loving, open minded, joyous churches out there.

An interesting indicator of how truly loving and accepting a given church is would be their response to 1. an atheist joining, and 2. a gay couple joining.