How to Be a Man (Blog)

[cylon]

Spartan could you at least quote at least one thought from that article and give an example of what you perceive to be sexist, and why it is sexist, beyond "it's all sexist"?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by cylon

Spartan could you at least quote at least one thought from that article and give an example of what you perceive to be sexist, and why it is sexist, beyond "it's all sexist"?

I will analyse it tomorrow when I have more time. I have to go now.

[Plato]

We need equal social rights and justice. However, that does not mean to say we are the same and I think there is a fundamental difference between men and women relating to the spectrum of emotions we desire to feel.

The code I try to live by as a man is to embrace my need for heroic deeds and great actions by taming my emotions; making them the servants of my will to power, glory and the good. What I find attractive in women is a total confidence to be her emotions. Where I control and tame, she embraces and heightens.

If there's one thing we can agree on without needing to call people sexist biggots, it's that there are girly films that most men don't watch unless the girlfriend insists and we do as we're told. I think the reason for men not liking these films is because we don't want to feel emotions that weaken us. Meanwhile girls, you want to feel the strongest emotions possible, joyful and heartbreaking, because that is what makes you feel truly alive.

Contrary to popular belief, the reason some men don't express their emotions much is not because we feel scared to or because we're embarrassed. It's because we are trying to master them and just thinking about sensitive stuff weakens us! We must focus on the positive to feel postive.

This is my way of looking at it anyway.

[cylon]

great post Plato. Interesting perspective on "chick flicks". Never really thought about it like that, the reason we can find them so repulsive.

[Fullcrum]

Spartan: If we took your approach of only "consciously considering the differences in individuals," without finding patterns like "masculine energy" to group people by, nothing would ever get done and information would never get disseminated.

If you think this article is saying "You are not a man until you follow these things," I think you are just projecting a prejudice based on the title. How does this decrease acceptance. Do you think we will look at men who do not follow these tenants and say "He is not a man,"? Of course not!

This post is more like a roadmap for men on the path to leading lives of ultimate fulfillment. If you develop these qualities, the journey will be much easier. Maybe easy is a bad word, but you understand my point.

Instead of only trying to judge the article on its negative traits (you should do that, too), try and see what you can gain from it. At least it's working - it causes you to re-examine your old beliefs.

[supertom]

I'm interest to know if the women in the forum are attracted the man steve describes, if they think that sort of a guy is more ideal and what they look for ???

[Rachelle]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Fairness implies consciously considering the differences of individuals, not imposing stereotypes of masculinity (or femininity). I favour fairness on an individual level.

I think this article advocates sexism in the sense that it imposes stereotypes of masculinity that only serve to increase 'socially conditioned' prejudices, and decrease acceptance of the individual.

I think I agree with Spartan here.

Although, just because the article is sexist in the sense of imposing stereotypes, doesn't necessarily mean (in my opinion) that it's a bad article - I still like it. I just take from it what I want and apply it to myself how I see fit.

Sorry Steve, but I think your argument re: the definition of sexism was weak, at least when using the example of pregnancy by saying 'men can't have babies' and then saying that's a stereotype. That's not a stereotype, it's a fact. (although this article will tell you otherwise: Issue Number 1005 | Labor of Love | Advocate.com )

Here's the definition of stereotype I'm working with: something conforming to a fixed or general pattern; especially : a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

Someone else was saying women (as a group) want to feel heightened emotions. Because that statement is a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment -it means that statement is a stereotype. (There could certainly be truth behind this statement, but because the statement is being applied to a WHOLE group, that is what makes it a stereotype.) And, because the stereotype is based on sex/gender, that is what makes it sexist.

Now, I fully realize that it is a fact that there are indeed differences between men and women on a physiological scale, and this may include emotions. Since films were used as an example and breaking them up into 'girly' films vs the more manly variety, I would like to say that I usually DESPISE 'girly' films. I usually am not a fan of action-flicks either (although I LOVED certain action films as a kid), unless there's also something of substance to the film. I typically prefer a well-made film who's story line is intriguing and intellectual (and too many films out there usually don't fit the bill). One of my favourite films is 'Contact' based on Carl Sagan's Novel. And my favourite TV shows? Star Trek:TNG and Babylon 5.

Sometimes it might be practical to use stereotypes...Maybe? I don't know, it's not really for me to say. (Or is it?)
But I think the reason behind offensive reactions to stereotypes comes about as a result of the inaccuracies that are created when using a whole group to represent the identity/traits/characteristics of each individual in that group.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lilly

Steve, would you say this article applies to homosexual men? How about homosexual women? Are you going to open up the challenge to people who may want to write "How to Be a Homosexual Man?"

I am a homosexual man and I think the article applies to me as well. I think points 4 and 9 need some improvement in my case.... I cannot speak for all homosexual men, though. It may be that other homosexual men will benefit more from the "How to be a woman" article that Steve is going to link to. It depends on whether your character is more masculine or more feminine.

[Dan Morelle]

30 day Samurai trial then

Here's a page that I think you might find interesting: Death and the Samurai

[Rose of Cairo]

This blog post is about making conscious choices, taking responsibility, expressing love, putting personal integrity and purpose above relationships, etc. I really don't see anything gender specific about that. It's more "how to be a conscious person" in my eyes. I cannot think about something that would be specific to women and more important than those principles. Not saying they are the most important things in the world, but if there's something more important, it would also be more important for men.

I admit that maybe it's "how to be a conscious person with predominantly male energy" too. Unfortunately, Steve and a few others here assume that all men have predominantly male energy and all women predominantly female energy. That's not the case. There are men with predominantly female energy and women with predominantly male energy. Equating someone's energetical signature with their physical gender is a shortsighted generalization. Not all women are like Erin, and not all men like Steve.

If you're in fact talking about energies, then please talk about energies, and let the biological gender out of there. Using it as a criterion is disempowering and limiting, especially for those whose energetical gender doesn't match their biological one. A guy with dominant female energy would have a hard time living like this. However, he is neither automatically gay, nor a wimp.

If your point actually is that we should fully embrace our dominant energy instead of aiming for balance, then why don't you just say exactly this? Would be yet another kind of polarization This is another topic entirely. And a very interesting one. I'd love to talk about it, but now we're stuck in a discussion about stupid gender stereotypes, which is not in the slightest relevant.

[MarchHare]

Steve, you said "women can get pregnant and men can't" isn't sexist.

What do you think of Thomas Beatie? He's a transsexual male (FTM) who is married to a woman who had to undergo a hysterectomy. When the time came for them to start with children, they decided he carry the fetus instead of choosing adoption.

Is he not pregnant? Or is he not a man? If the latter, what determines whether one is a man?

Personally, I think the categories of 'man' and 'woman' are a little too vague to be certain about anything. Some women are infertile, or had their tubes tied, and will never get pregnant. Not women? Some people are intersex. Are they not the gender they think they are? How 'bout XXY (2 Xes, therefore woman AND Y, therefore man) and X0 (no 2 Xes, therefore not woman, and no Y, therefore not man) genotypes?

[Tamas]

How to be a Woman

In a nutshell: Be the perfect complement to a Man

1. Yield to the decisions and leadership demonstrated by a Man

A woman understands the importance of giving up control and lowering her resistance to follow freely and going with the flow. Just like in dance (latin or ballroom), it becomes frustrating when she refuses to yield to directions, while complete harmony ensues when she adopts his decisions.

A woman requires the approval of people around her. Through validating the reality created by the choices other people made, she gains validation in that world.

2. Put your relationships first

A woman’s loyalty to her partner, family, friends and local community has to be of highest importance (in that order). She is most feminine, when providing supporting love and care to those immediately around her.

Should she ignore her most important relationships, her life would become empty and directionless. It is the breathing out of the energy of love that defines the purpose of a woman.

3. Be willing to improvise

A woman relishes the opportunity, when chance, luck or coincidences force her to go out of her usual way and discover new enjoyment in a changing world. By improvising on the spot, she resists to complain or sulk about events that are out of her control.

A woman grows most spiritually when she employs her creative energies to foster change, rather than resent it. If she is unwilling to accept and adapt to change with vitality and optimism then she fails to understand the spirituality of living in the moment.


4. Be patient

A woman accepts and lives in harmony with other people in her life and her environment. She lets the natural rhythm of things to dictate a tempo and loves the people around her together with their mistakes and imperfections.

Just like a river carving through a bed of rock, she knows that only through patience, hard work and applying herself every day she can make a real change. There are no shortcuts.

5. Be passionate

A woman knows and understands well her wide emotional range and considers it an asset. She avoids neurotic tendencies, low self-confidence and emotional instability. Instead she follows through with her purpose by expressing her love to her cause.

She must wean herself from anxieties and coping or defence mechanisms restricting her to fulfil her role in the world. Only by seeking out inherent feminine instincts can she fully commit to a cause and lay her soul bare in the process.


Finally: Live through your children and grandchildren

A woman’s mission in life is to care and love for her family and provide a safe and sound future for the next generation. Through being a mother, she provides guidance and support while making many selfless sacrifices. This way her children and grandchildren will be able to successfully face the challenges of the world they are born into.

---------
The small print :
-Man and woman is freely interchangable with masculine and feminine energy respectively
-The points that I left out I feel either apply to both or naturally follow
-This was written by a man and I currently feel that more often than not women dont know what they want or need in their lives.
-Also this was written, as inspired by Steve's post on the spot. Similarities between the two are not accidental as I belive the obvious is more useful than the original.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

Spartan: If we took your approach of only "consciously considering the differences in individuals," without finding patterns like "masculine energy" to group people by, nothing would ever get done and information would never get disseminated.?

Why do people need to be grouped into stereotypes in order for things to get done? I don't understand your logic here.

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

If you think this article is saying "You are not a man until you follow these things," I think you are just projecting a prejudice based on the title. How does this decrease acceptance. Do you think we will look at men who do not follow these tenants and say "He is not a man,"? Of course not!?

Then why post an article with a title implying that the quality of being a man is something to be attained? The quality of being a man is a natural birthright, and I wont let some 'positive masculinity' bandwagon dictate that right to me.

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

This post is more like a roadmap for men on the path to leading lives of ultimate fulfillment. If you develop these qualities, the journey will be much easier. Maybe easy is a bad word, but you understand my point.

Have you any evidence for this claim? Or are you just projecting your own beliefs onto others - imposing a stereotype of masculinity?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Plato

I think there is a fundamental difference between men and women relating to the spectrum of emotions we desire to feel.

How can one possibly know what emotions someone else desires to feel? Even if you had surveyed 1000 people and found strong correlation between the emotions people desired to feel and their sex, to induce that eveyone follows this pattern is fallacious beyond belief.

Originally Posted by Plato

The code I try to live by as a man is to embrace my need for heroic deeds and great actions by taming my emotions; making them the servants of my will to power, glory and the good. What I find attractive in women is a total confidence to be her emotions. Where I control and tame, she embraces and heightens.

Well aren't you the chivalrous knight. In fact, who decides what behaviour is deemed masculine/feminine? That is just another controversial matter of opinion.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Have you any evidence for this claim?

Have you got any evidence for men and women being the same?


It's a value system. Try it out and see how it works for you.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Spartan

to induce that eveyone follows this pattern is fallacious beyond belief.

I didn't say everyone. In fact quite the opposite because we can train ourselves to like whatever we're told to like -- it's a combination of genes and what society conditions us to feel. To follow these values would require reconditioning yourself to a degree.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Tamas

How to be a Woman

In a nutshell: Be the perfect complement to a Man

1. Yield to the decisions and leadership demonstrated by a Man

A woman understands the importance of giving up control and lowering her resistance to follow freely and going with the flow. Just like in dance (latin or ballroom), it becomes frustrating when she refuses to yield to directions, while complete harmony ensues when she adopts his decisions.

I felt nauseous after reading your first point. This is a blatant example of how an article like Steve's promotes sexism.

Tamas is creating criteria for feminity (submissive, obedient, emotionally expressive blah blah blah), just as Steve created criteria for masculinity (dominant, confdent, emotionlly controlled blah blah blah). This has negative effects on indivduals who don't conform to the stereotypes - whilst reinforcing socially conditioned prejudices.

[MasterD]

There are definitely polarity differences between men and women. I don't know if this is biological or spiritual, or maybe both, but how I feel it is that I have to live my life and achieve goals. This is far less important for women. Women generally want a dominant man who is very confident, knows his place in the world and knows what he is after. I think they are more happy supporting a man and giving him the energy and inspiration to achieve these goals then they are achieving goals themselves. The problem is that there are so few masculine man, that women are forced to take the masculine role and thereby losing touch with there feminine part and that women have forgotten that that is what they love most (women, correct me if I am wrong). Of course this can be switched if a man takes the feminine polarity and a woman the masculine polarity, but in order for a relationship to thrive there has to be a polarity.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by MasterD

There are definitely polarity differences between men and women. I don't know if this is biological or spiritual, or maybe both, but how I feel it is that I have to live my life and achieve goals. This is far less important for women. Women generally want a dominant man who is very confident, knows his place in the world and knows what he is after. I think they are more happy supporting a man and giving him the energy and inspiration to achieve these goals then they are achieving goals themselves. The problem is that there are so few masculine man, that women are forced to take the masculine role and thereby losing touch with there feminine part and that women have forgotten that that is what they love most (women, correct me if I am wrong). Of course this can be switched if a man takes the feminine polarity and a woman the masculine polarity, but in order for a relationship to thrive there has to be a polarity.

I just get mad when I read comments like this.

I won't even bother to dissect the prejudice that is your post, it speaks for itself.

edit: Realtionships based on mutual respect and acceptance are usually thriving ones, unlike relationships which are fettered by some socially constructed 'polarity'. Talking about polarities in this way is restricting, since there are too many nuances in behaviour.

[Paul C]

Incredible post Steve, I've already printed it out for further reference.

It hit home on so many levels, many reminders. You didn't pull any punches, just like usual, great.

And to Spartan: I find your forum alias to be amusingly ironic, considering the image that it conjures up in the mind more often than not- incredibly masculine men, running about doing heroic deeds (although, obviously, there were Spartan women as well).

I personally didn't perceive anything sexist about this article, it was specifically about the male polarity of our species. And there will be a similar article for the female polarity, no problem. And I am aware that some of the points within this article could be applied to either sex.

As for equality? Equal in essence, different in form. Opposites that are complimentary to one another.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by cylon

Spartan could you at least quote at least one thought from that article and give an example of what you perceive to be sexist, and why it is sexist, beyond "it's all sexist"?

Gladly.

4. Be confident.

A man speaks and acts with confidence. He owns his attitude.

This imposes the attribute of being 'confident' as a criterion for being a man. However, there are millions of men that suffer from anxiety problems, and anxiety problems are real medical problems, not some self-induced habit of negativity. There are possible physiological/genetical causes.

Thus to indicate that these men aren't masculine becuase they don't conform to the stereotype is sexist. Yet Steve goe's one further and implies that these men aren't even men - just because they struggle to suppress anxious emotions. That is tantamount to saying mentally disabled people aren't real humans because of their inability to think rationally.

2. Put your relationships second.

A man who claims his #1 commitment in life is his relationship partner (or his family) is either too dishonest or too weak to be trusted.

This implies that men (exclusively) should value relationships second, otherwise they are to be considered "dishonest" or "too weak to be trusted." That is an extremely sexist and judgmental comment.

There are perhaps many 'masculine' trustworthy men who regard their relationship more important than anything else. Are they to be condemned because of this?

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Paul C

And to Spartan: I find your forum alias to be amusingly ironic, considering the image that it conjures up in the mind more often than not- incredibly masculine men, running about doing heroic deeds (although, obviously, there were Spartan women as well).

Is there any need to get personal?

For your information Spartans were also known for their quick wit as well as their physical prowess.

I am into fitness as I have mentioned in previous threads. I weightlift, run and kickbox, however that is irrelevant to this issue.

[MasterD]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I just get mad when I read comments like this.

I won't even bother to dissect the prejudice that is your post, it speaks for itself.

edit: Realtionships based on mutual respect and acceptance are usually thriving ones, unlike relationships which are fettered by some socially constructed 'polarity'. Talking about polarities in this way is restricting, since there are too many nuances in behaviour.

I didn't say there is no mutual respect. Of course there is and the one with the feminine polarity (either man or woman) has own goals of itself. I am just saying for a passionate relationship there is one more dominant and one more submissive. One more the leader and more the follower. For the feminine 'player' the relationship is most important. For the masculine player his goals, his purpose and his challenge. He needs the feminine, however, badly in order to inspire him and in order to thrive.

I talked to many women about this; and this is what I am experiencing in my own life. I feel when I am in this polarity and living my life as a real man (I am not there yet 100% consistent) I attract women that are looking for this type of energy. And those aren't the most needy unattractive girls. In the contrary; these are definitely the more attractive women, who are sick of the wimpy unpolarized guys.

You as a man, don't make ridicilous dominant decisions, just for your own benefit. You make sure everybody around you feels good and comfortable. You are a pillar of strength; a source of grounding energy and everybody around you benefits from that.

[The Wise Turtle]

There are men who are more strong and competitive, there are men who are more gentle and collaborative, and there are men who are more balanced between the two. Similarly there are woman who are more strong and competitive, there are women who are more gentle and collaborative, and there are women who are more balanced between the two. And there are people of mixed genders who are more strong and competitive, and people of mixed genders who are more gentle and collaborative, and there are people of mixed genders who are more balanced between the two.

All are perfectly good combinations, as long as each individual feels comfortable with who they are and feels free to be themselves.

But I do see a usefulness to offering a gender specific title for an article such as this one from Steve, as it attracts guys who might be looking for some guidance about what it might mean to be a man who is confident and successful. Of course the post applies to all genders, and is really just about being a healthy sentient, social animal, but more people are likely to read something if it's got a catchy title and seems to specifically apply to them or someone they know. So framing this generalized information specifically in a male perspective is a great way to make it seem more personal, since we all are either a man, or at least know someone who is. :-)

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turil

[MasterD]

Originally Posted by Spartan

Realtionships based on mutual respect and acceptance are usually thriving ones, unlike relationships which are fettered by some socially constructed 'polarity'. Talking about polarities in this way is restricting, since there are too many nuances in behaviour.

By the way; I think a long time ago the socially accepted relationship role of man was very dominant in the relationship and often controlled the woman.

That is NOT what you are shooting for.

I think; however; nowadays; a lot of men are living there lifes for the approval of women. Women hate that. They want you to be strong and confident in yourself and what you want out of life.

Two great books about this are The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida and On Being a Man by Sam Keen.

I am not 100% clear yet all the time what my role as a man is. Then I learn; but I am definitely aware that there is a polarization difference. This doesn't mean she is less than you; you are both absolutely equal; you just have different functions, different roles.

If you want to find a masculine women and play the feminine part; fine; it will work out fine probably.

If you look in gay couples, by the way, there is also always a more feminine one and a more masculine one.

[Savage]

FYI I've received 4 submissions for the "How to Be a Woman" article already.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Spartan

The quality of being a man is a natural birthright, and I wont let some 'positive masculinity' bandwagon dictate that right to me.

WHAT are you talking about? Look at the title for THIS website. "personal DEVELOPMENT".

Not personal "birthright".

And it's not a bandwagon. Please stop using the stereotype that people coming here using a term like that are part of a 'bandwagon'. I find it offensive.

[The Wise Turtle]

I find it amusing that some people are actually serious about the idea that there is a right way and wrong way to "be a man". Or even that the word "man" actually means anything in reality. It's like saying there is a "right" way to be short, or young, or blond, or a science fiction fan.

But some people like making rules up, I suppose, so do what you want, as long as it makes you happy.

Steve, do these guidelines you wrote make you happy?

Peace, Love, and Bicycles,
Turil

P.S. I find it even more amusing, given the stereotype that men are loathe to ask for or read directions, that Steve is giving men directions on how to be a man. :-)

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Spartan

This imposes the attribute of being 'confident' as a criterion for masculinity. However, there are millions of men that suffer from anxiety problems, and anxiety problems are real medical problems, not some self-induced habit of negativity. There are possible physiological/genetical causes.

Thus to indicate that these men aren't masculine becuase they don't conform to the stereotype is sexist. Yet Steve goe's one further and implies that these men aren't even men - just because they struggle to suppress anxious emotions. That is tantamount to saying mentally disabled people aren't real humans because of their inability to think rationally.

Got it. You hear people use words like "positive masculinity" and suddenly get flashbacks to nazi concentration camps.

Try to lighten up man.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by MasterD

I didn't say there is no mutual respect. Of course there is and the one with the feminine polarity (either man or woman) has own goals of itself. I am just saying for a passionate relationship there is one more dominant and one more submissive. One more the leader and more the follower. For the feminine 'player' the relationship is most important. For the masculine player his goals, his purpose and his challenge. He needs the feminine, however, badly in order to inspire him and in order to thrive.

I talked to many women about this; and this is what I am experiencing in my own life. I feel when I am in this polarity and living my life as a real man (I am not there yet 100% consistent) I attract women that are looking for this type of energy. And those aren't the most needy unattractive girls. In the contrary; these are definitely the more attractive women, who are sick of the wimpy unpolarized guys.

You as a man, don't make ridicilous dominant decisions, just for your own benefit. You make sure everybody around you feels good and comfortable. You are a pillar of strength; a source of grounding energy and everybody around you benefits from that.

I'm sorry, but I just don't feel the need to be a "pillar of strength" in order to prove my masculinity. I accept myself as I am, I don't feel the need to change myself or prove myself or align myself to a socially constructed 'polarity'.

If I act like a nervous wreck I would still consider myself masculine, I don't need to be a stoic like figure to feel masculine.

If someone considers me 'wimpy' shame on them for judging me based on one instance of my behaviour.