How to Be a Man (Blog)

[schola]

Originally Posted by sidelko

This blog post is a great summery of the book

The Way Of The Superior Man: A Spiritual Guide to Mastering the Challenges of Woman, Work, and Sexual Desire by David Deida

Bump. I recommend this book.

[Playlife]

I was just wondering, what would be that man who does everything listed in the article, and works as a florist, perfume maker or kindergarten teacher - all quite "female" careers.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Playlife

I was just wondering, what would be that man who does everything listed in the article, and works as a florist, perfume maker or kindergarten teacher - all quite "female" careers.

The article was about the qualites you would have. You would have them no matter your job or where you lived, etc. They are intrinsic to you.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by schola

Bump. I recommend this book.

Way of the Superior Man is a great read, especially for men who have a more spiritual viewpoint.

Another fantastic book, which I previously mentioned is "Fire in the Belly" by Sam Keen, which is the authors personal exploration into his own masculinity.

If anyone has further suggestions for books by men about being men that are insightful, please list them!

[Woohoo]

Originally Posted by cylon

If anyone has further suggestions for books by men about being men that are insightful, please list them!

The book I'd recommend was written by a woman, but it is a good addition to David Deida's and Sam Keen's books:

Ayn Rand - The Fountainhead.

[cylon]

Cool. I've read that, and a lot of her non-fiction, but it's been a few years. Have yet to read Atlas Shrugged, which is mentioned frequently as another positive masculinity book.

[Lexilicious]

Just because you have different values for your relationships than someone who would do such a thing, doesn't mean that this person isn't motivated by wanting to have a good relationship.
The father who honor kills his daughter is motivated by his ideal to be a good father.
If he didn't that high ideal of being a good father the chances for him to honor kill would be lower.
If you think that it is about the feeling of avoiding shame it has nothing to do with the ideals that Steve in the thread.

So is it the ideal about realtionships or relationships? Valuing an ideal about relationships still values an ideal over the relationship.

In general I wouldn't tell a person who looks to harm another where the person he wants to harm is regardles of whether the person he wants to harm is my wife or a stranger.
It would be my value to protect my wife that motivates that action but the value of preventing harm.

In the last sentence did you leave a word out? Use of the word "but" suggests you meant "It would *not* be my value to protect my wife" etc.
---

Okay, the following scenario-- A guy in the military and on the battlefield hanging with his buddies. Someone throws a live grenade your way- he dives on the grenade, to protect his buddies. In the military, at least according to my dad, it is the sense of loyalty to your buddies that causes you to do this, this would seem like a valuing relationship issue. What's your take?

[Brutha]

So is it the ideal about realtionships or relationships? Valuing an ideal about relationships still values an ideal over the relationship.

I think you can't value something without having values or ideals.
If you don't know what I good relationship looks like, how can you have a good relationship?

Maybe you still don't think that any sane person could think that killing his daughter is in the interest of his daughter.

Emilia Galotti is a drama by Gotthold Ephraim Lessing from 1772 and is in the western canon.
It ends with Emilia convincing per father after a long discussion to honor kill her. The drama is understood as being critical about those civic values.

In christian tradition suicide means that you go to hell. Emilia finds herself in a situation in which she doesn't want to life anymore to protect herself from shame.
Honor killing her gives her the opportunity to leave life without suicide and the moral burden of suicide that might mean that she go to hell.
On the other hand it leaves the moral burden on her father. Killing another person, especially your daughter is a heave moral burden.

Suicide probably has similar associations in Islam.
In the west a lot has changed in the last 250 years. You can't expect the same changes to have occured in some traditional muslim communities. I also don't think that it is a coincidence that those communities put a lot more emphasis on family relations than we do in the west today.

Steve gave the example of mafia clans that are dominated by family loyality.

I think that the honor killing is a similar example where putting to much value on blood relationships produces bad action.

In the last sentence did you leave a word out? Use of the word "but" suggests you meant "It would *not* be my value to protect my wife" etc.

You are right. I mean't *not*.

In the military, at least according to my dad, it is the sense of loyalty to your buddies that causes you to do this, this would seem like a valuing relationship issue.

I was never inside the military myself.
People could also throw themself into a grenade to be heroic.

In general the military is a place where blind obedience is needed. Part of that obedience may be to throw oneself into a grenade.
I think in most situations in real life, blind obedience is not manly.

In the grenade example I also don't know exactly what the competing motivation to loyality could be.
Not throwing yourself into a grenade may find no good justification that is based on any idealistic value and not on selfish reasons.
When you want to see what someones top priority you have to set up a situation where value A would result in Action B and value C in action D.
If you do B you value A over C.

I might value loyality over my own well being but still value truth and justice much higher than loyality.

[balexmills]

Originally Posted by Spartan

I'm not ashamed of my masculinity, I'm ashamed that I live in a world where intelligent, rational people attempt to impose their dogmatic beliefs (in this case a stereotype of masculinity) onto others.

Who is imposing anything on you?

[balexmills]

Originally Posted by cylon

Spartan I'm afraid you're reading too much into this.

[balexmills]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Despite all of that, I really, really, really, really believe that any female who knows herself, for example, as deeply as I know myself, would never take issue with this...issue. I know who I am, I know how I am, I know what statements apply to me and which ones don't. I like how I am in this area of my life, I like the different qualities I have and enjoyments I have that are considered feminine and I like to be considered feminine, this is how I am and I like it. Whatever enjoyments or qualities I may have that may be considered unfeminine, I can't even think of any off-hand, but there must be, but I simply don't think of them as being masculine, but rather as being a part of me and if I like them, I like them and I like that part of me. So what is there to get offended at when I read Steve's article? Nothing.

Get to know yourself.

^^^

[munish]

How to be a man.

11. Don’t let sex precipitate you into marriage. If you marry a girl who is not beautiful you won't be happy.

[Dylan]

I think a man should pursue beauty - in all areas of his life - constantly. Beauty can be found in business deals, exercise routines, financial decisions, learning choices, relationships, etc. When heterosexual men are young and immature, they pursue women who are physically beautiful. Often times, these men will ascribe virtues (more beauty) to pretty women - virtues the women may not even possess. As a man matures, his definition of beauty expands. Good looks become one quality, but other qualities rise in importance to create a more complete picture of a beautiful person. Although that illustration is about relationships, the point is that, as a man keeps his compass pointed toward beautry, beauty will respond and grow in his life.

[Cron]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

How to Be a Man

I don't mean this sarcastically.

I think part of "being a man" is not needing or letting other people tell you how to be a man.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Cron

I think part of "being a man" is not needing or letting other people tell you how to be a man.

In a society with congruent and appropriate value systems that would not be neccessary.

[cylon]

We find things that speak to us, and we take them or leave them. The whole point of personal growth, is experimenting with new ideas and concepts. That is not the same as "someone telling you what to do". If it resonates with you, you're going to consider it, if not, you're going to reject it.

I don't understand where people who are actively clicking a link and reading an article are left with a feeling that someone has just told them what to do and is keeping score. It's all in your head.

FWIW my personal opinion, (and Steve brought this up with his examples of poor male role-models) is that men in this generation can definitely benefit from a new way of thinking. It worked for me.

And I can't be all that different, I grew up with the same cultural conditioning most men I know grew up with.

[Brutha]

I think part of "being a man" is not needing or letting other people tell you how to be a man.

I think there is still a space where you can discuss ideals without pushing other people.

Everyone has to find their own ideals, but it valuable to look at the ideals that other people persue before you make your own decision of what life you want to life. Looking at other ideals broadens your perspective and can give you ideas.

That intenal and external conversation of thinking about values and ideals is important.

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by Cron

I think part of "being a man" is not needing or letting other people tell you how to be a man.

Exactly what I was implying :

Originally Posted by jamestl2

my opinion is that if someone has to TELL you how to be a "man", then you won't achieve that "man-status". It's a paradox, and you're not really thinking for yourself.

[Myrabeth]

Steve's post on 'How to be a Man' really spoke to me for the following reason: he speaks as an initiated man. Whether by actual initiatory process, or that he's just done so much work with the issues of initiation that he's transformed himself, I don't know. But from my perspective, here are the hallmarks of an initiated man:
clarity of thought and action
less fear of failure
lack of willingness to engage in heady debate
an understanding that the fear of death drives much behavior that is unproductive (from addictions to war)
less frightened of angry women/angry feminine energy
less needing to be right
less needing to be in competition, especially with other men

How do I know? I am in relationship with a man who has gone through a men's rite of passage (there are lots of different kinds, some include vision quests) and there are several men in my community who have also done this work. I find them the men that I choose to spend time talking with: they just are more real, honest and fun to be with than other men that I know (and love!). I love it that they can hug each other with great zest and caring!

There are some amazing programs that are doing initiatory work with youth of both sexes. Hats off to them--giving our youth more rites of passage than getting a car and/or getting laid, seems like some good work.

Thanks, Steve--don't know your path, but the world needs more of what you have to say, and give.

Beth (aka Myrabeth)

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by balexmills

Who is imposing anything on you?

Steve is... duh!!! Read his article, notice the abrubtness and wild assertions about what is means to be a man!!! Anyway, I can't be fcuked to explain myself over and over, anymore!

This is my last comment on the matter. I've justified everything I've written with well reasoned arguments. If you can't see that, then you are blinded by your own sentinment.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Spartan

If you can't see that, then you are blinded by your own sentinment.

You've explained that you disagree with the article. But no one has the power to impose anything on you. You read it and responded in such a way that you felt you were being told what to do. You're the one that read it and had that reaction. All from your own power. For someone to impose something on you, it has to be against your will.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Nice Cylon. Its obvious Mr. Spartan has a bit of a problem being reduced to a list of traits that aren't really the be all and end all of being a man, just a signpost.

Oh well...so reasonable, intelligent and non-defensive people who are left in the conversation....

Do you think that the Women entry has a distinctly feminie energy about it, or was that just me? Because as I read both side by side I got a distinctly seperate feeling from them.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by cylon

You've explained that you disagree with the article. But no one has the power to impose anything on you. You read it and responded in such a way that you felt you were being told what to do. You're the one that read it and had that reaction. All from your own power. For someone to impose something on you, it has to be against your will.

It's semantics again, but I see what you are saying now. By the word 'impose' I meant that steve asserts this is how it is, i.e. either do this or you aren't a man (which is how I interpreted his article from the wording used). Perhaps others interpreted his wording differently? I guess semantics is the problem here.

[Myrabeth]

There is a way that the river flows. We can do a lot to change the path of the river, but in the end, the river flows where it wants to go.

It seems to me that this discussion thread is another 'how many angels on the head of a pin' thing that begins to be boring. Steve's wisdom about what he's learned about how his life flows is a snapshot of where he is right now in his understanding of the river. The river looks different from different perspectives. Are any of them wrong? I don't think that Steve said that this is the ONLY way to view man-hood? This is his way, his perspective, gleaned from living and loving and serving.

The maleness of this thread is pretty interesting. While the discussion rages about other things, the truth is revealed in the bigger picture of (competitively?) assigning values to perspectives.

Am I saying that maleness=discrimination? Not at all, although, I as a woman, full of my own opinions, often note that making discriminations of good from better, better from best, is not my highest functionality. Whereas, I notice that many men tend to excel at that function.

So, let's go swimming and cool off. Race you all to that rock on the other side.

Beth (aka Myrabeth)

[Brutha]

By the word 'impose' I meant that steve asserts this is how it is,

I don't think that this is what Steve is doing. Rather: Hey here is a perspective (or lens) of reality that might help you.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Spartan

It's semantics again, but I see what you are saying now. By the word 'impose' I meant that steve asserts this is how it is, i.e. either do this or you aren't a man (which is how I interpreted his article from the wording used). Perhaps others interpreted his wording differently? I guess semantics is the problem here.

It's fine to disagree with his views. Just look at them, reject them, and move on.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Do you think that the Women entry has a distinctly feminie energy about it, or was that just me? Because as I read both side by side I got a distinctly seperate feeling from them.

Haven't read them. But I would assume you would get that sense. Of course, you know in advance that it's a man or woman.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

It's fine to disagree with his views. Just look at them, reject them, and move on.

It's also fine not to just reject them and move on, too. Spartan is not wrong to respond as (s)he does, any more than you are. Don't you agree, Cylon?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

It's also fine not to just reject them and move on, too. Spartan is not wrong to respond as (s)he does, any more than you are. Don't you agree, Cylon?

I mean to mentally to move on, and walk away from things that don't speak to you. Not to stop posting.

Steve, myself, or anyone else can't impose anything on someone who comes and goes of their free will.

[Spartan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Spartan is not wrong to respond as (s)he does,

Are you implying I'm not a man?