Are Darkworkers Evil? (Blog)

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by markytom

Expanding countryside to create more farms displaces and kills animals.

I just wanted to point out that the less meat I eat the less countryside is needed. Eating animals causes a double whammy on this from. Wild animals are displaced to feed factory farmed animals.

[markytom]

[quote=Dave Kaminski;181394]Some of us do go as far as avoiding most/all of these things; yes. We feel that strongly about our stances.

However, Steve was making an analogy of mental polarities (meat eating 'right' vs. 'wrong'), not path polarities ('lightworker' vs. 'darkworker') so he could set the foundation for his argument/point.
QUOTE]

I think that vegetarian vs. meat eating - 'right' vs. 'wrong' is a very weak analogy.

I could go on and on with just as many reasons why farming plants is as bad as raising animals for consumption - the E. Coli spinach breakout was on organic farms, rain forests being destroyed to grow crops, growing corn for ethanol, fertilizer runoffs, pulling up happily living carrots and slicing and boiling them - (isn't that cruel to do to a living organism? - people have put their lives on the line to prevent trees from being cut down - why is a tree different than a carrot?), etc. etc.

Supporting the subjective reality way of looking at life I don't see the world in terms of 'good' and 'bad' or 'right' and 'wrong' - those types of arguments are arbitrary and completely subjective. And many times what appears to be the 'right' thing to do ends up causing more problems in the long run.

You can take any event and interpret it however you want to in order to show 'rightness' or 'wrongness' - I think everyone should understand boths sides of every issue, question their beliefs, try to eliminate dogma in their thinking, and not push others with their personal agendas in arguments based on blanket 'of course, this is the right/wrong thing to do, everyone knows that' type of rationale.

[munish]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Again, I find it very difficult to distinguish between the Lightworker and Darkworker based on the fact that we cannot understand how they think at any point in time. Bill Gates could very well be a Lightworker or Darkworker and we can not be sure of knowing.

If he wants to feel the power to make those same decisions and the money and influence in terms of control of wills and people and that is his motivation for domination, he could easily be considered a darkworker.

It doesn't matter, whether Bill is a Darkworker or Light .

What is Important though is, what we are or willing to be .

Polarization/polarity are just words . See the depth of, what it is to be a person , who is 100% service oriented or 100% opposite of that .

[3mb]

Its noticeable to read in this article your vegetarian bias, christian perspectives; dark/light good/bad and from other writings and this, you seem to preference perceiving life with a pc game metaphor.

By the thinking in this article, if you intentionally harm someone to stop them harming your wife your harming yourself whilst protecting yourself, what are you?

Presumably you don’t believe in a human omnivore, assuming we are part of nature predatory behaviour is not without cruelty, you are saying in your opinion that human animals differ due to having behavioural choice? And that in your opinion ANY human being can healthfully live on non animal food sources?

It’s all beliefs and values, directing behaviour. Good/bad are individual subjective judgements based on believing and valuing, including this statement.

Playing with the game metaphor some more, you’re a dark worker or light worker or npc… so my choice is red blue or black… I’ll have white please… what do you mean you don’t offer white? It does exist; what is it?
So the game context in which there are light workers dark workers and npc’s with presumably an avatar by the name of steve pavlina, presumably a light worker?
Who determines the contextual parameters? The rules/possibilities of the context.
Some may believe a god, the programmer… beliefs and values.
Some wont have a god in their believing…beliefs and values.

What was there before there was anything, what will there be when there is nothing, if you have no ‘I’ who are you, why are hot cross buns cold.

Unlimited eternal pleasure’s just not enough.

Enjoy being.

[Nate Stahn]

If you really want to discern LW from DW: The mechanisms of growth are flavored by the perspective from which you view them. So check out how they've performed in the past and who they've affected (and in what ways). Easy way to measure. But that's sooo much less enjoyable than actually growing.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Plato

Thanks Keith.. This nonaction concept is confusing to me. I don't get what it is that will cause action if we leave ourselves as dust in the wind unless it is in fact equivalent to the motivation of a lightworker?

It's kind of a hard concept to wrap your head around. It's one you have to intuit and experience rather than understand cerebrally. "Nonaction" is a mistranslation. It's often translated "effortless action" or "actionless action" (one of those apparent paradoxes that eastern philosophy is so fond of).

It's not inaction, it's appropriate (natural) action taken in the way that meets no resistance.

Did you read the parable about cutting up an ox that I posted? That sums it up rather well (vegetarian concerns aside).

P.S. When I refer to Daoism, I'm referring to philosophical Daoism, rather than religious Daoism, though that's a hard line to draw.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Keith

It's kind of a hard concept to wrap your head around. It's one you have to intuit and experience rather than understand cerebrally. "Nonaction" is a mistranslation. It's often translated "effortless action" or "actionless action" (one of those apparent paradoxes that eastern philosophy is so fond of).

It's not inaction, it's appropriate (natural) action taken in the way that meets no resistance.

Did you read the parable about cutting up an ox that I posted? That sums it up rather well (vegetarian concerns aside).

P.S. When I refer to Daoism, I'm referring to philosophical Daoism, rather than religious Daoism, though that's a hard line to draw.

Yeah, I read the parable and I didn't get it. I actually decided to read the Daodejing after reading your post..... and I still didn't get Daoism! Then I re-read the parable and I think I got it. What a mission! I tried this actionless action thing and it seems to me like a more efficient way of framing the concept of being "present." The word that really encompasses it for me is "spontaneity" and I like it. It feels like an innocent, child like way of being the way I was doing it.

In relation to the polarities topic I don't think Daoism is in contradiction to lightworking at all... in fact i would argue that it is lightworking in perfection. A total appreciation of simplicity and the moment, accompanied by perfect efforless action...

[Sam988]

Daoism seems to me like a glorified way of lazyness

[Lider]

I believe that everyone is starting to get a little crazy on the whole Dark Worker Evil thing. I myself am working on the Darkworker Path and I have learned many things. One of them is that you don’t need to kill, beat or threaten someone to get them out of the way. Yes, I may hurt some feelings sometimes, but that’s usually as far as I have to go. A little Manipulation tends to work wonders too, sometimes it even makes the said "person" my ally. Some Darkworkers may view one situation and think that it is better to just destroy the obstacle, others Darks may see the same thing and decide to go around it. Not all Darkworkers are the same, and not all Darkworkers use Evil as a tool.

Another thing that I have learned, just by paying attention, is that hated and feared rulers usually end up dead. Why not just be a "loved by everyone" ruler? Sure I may have to go out of my way to make some people happy but in the end because they love me, I have power over them. Love is of course the most powerful thing in the universe is it not? So know this: Evil Darkworkers are Moron Darkworkers, and not all dark workers are the same.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Lider

Another thing that I have learned, just by paying attention, is that hated and feared rulers usually end up dead. Why not just be a "loved by everyone" ruler? Sure I may have to go out of my way to make some people happy but in the end because they love me, I have power over them. Love is of course the most powerful thing in the universe is it not? So know this: Evil Darkworkers are Moron Darkworkers, and not all dark workers are the same.

As Machiavelli said, it's better for a ruler to be feared than loved. Love may be strong while it lasts but it's something that we can't control. Love is way too volatile to be any decent way of controlling other people sustainably in the long term. But i agree with you that it's better to wear an outfit of justice and goodness. People will respect you then, but at the same time you can never keep your guard down as you would if you just trusted that people's love is all you need to control them.

[Lider]

Yes it is true that fear is powerful, but to only use fear is the way of a Moron. A wise Darkworker would use both Fear and Love to achieve his goals. I as a person moving towards becoming a full fledged Darkworker believe that Love should be used more the fear, because people can stand against fear, but who can stand against love?

[shnu]

I've put a long post on Keith and Plato's discussion on daoism in a new thread:
Five points about Daoism

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Lider

I believe that everyone is starting to get a little crazy on the whole Dark Worker Evil thing. I myself am working on the Darkworker Path and I have learned many things. One of them is that you don’t need to kill, beat or threaten someone to get them out of the way. Yes, I may hurt some feelings sometimes, but that’s usually as far as I have to go. A little Manipulation tends to work wonders too, sometimes it even makes the said "person" my ally. Some Darkworkers may view one situation and think that it is better to just destroy the obstacle, others Darks may see the same thing and decide to go around it. Not all Darkworkers are the same, and not all Darkworkers use Evil as a tool.

Then I see no good or consistent definition possible for what a darkworker is. It becomes so terribly qualified to have any meaning.

Another thing that I have learned, just by paying attention, is that hated and feared rulers usually end up dead. Why not just be a "loved by everyone" ruler? Sure I may have to go out of my way to make some people happy but in the end because they love me, I have power over them. Love is of course the most powerful thing in the universe is it not? So know this: Evil Darkworkers are Moron Darkworkers, and not all dark workers are the same.

tricking others to love you to have power over them is not love at all - that is evil and domination tactics. The love that is powerful in the universe does not have codependency or power over others. That real love allows freedom and peace and cooperations.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Lider

Yes it is true that fear is powerful, but to only use fear is the way of a Moron. A wise Darkworker would use both Fear and Love to achieve his goals. I as a person moving towards becoming a full fledged Darkworker believe that Love should be used more the fear, because people can stand against fear, but who can stand against love?

I thought bringing love into the equation is a lightworkers path. if you are trying to make people love you, then that is different and a darkworker move - but not really love. because love goes both ways and allow freedom. the love you are talking about doesn't go both ways and keeps the other under your thumb.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by shnu

I've put a long post on Keith and Plato's discussion on daoism in a new thread:
Five points about Daoism

Good idea. This discussion has kind of diverged.

re: the original discussion, I maintain that any way of life with a 'true north' principle can be 'polarised' to. Daoism was just an example (and not a great one, actually 'cos it's so hard to explain ).

[Natsu]

Originally Posted by PrimaryErn

This is what I asked - i don't see how *any* kind of harm to others is 'allowed' under this model. Even if i'm the sweetest job applicant ever, honest, non-attcking, etc. etc. If I get the job and they don't I've taken something from someone else, and that's harm.

How is it that an animal that eats a fish (which is harm) and takes the fish away from the mouth of another animal (which is harm) is not a lightworker? Is it the lack of evil intent?

ARGH. I hate this kind of theory: it makes good people think they aren't good enough unless they behave as doormats and let others tread on them.

If you are the BEST applicant to a job position and take the job from everyone else, that's NOT harming the rest of the applicants... because you were the BEST. As Ayn Rand wrote, "there can be no conflict among rational people", meaning that if a person does something better than you, he gets the job and the money... And any reasonable person will accept it and take it as an opportunity to get better.

Imagine an editor needs a translator. The best translator appears, but suddenly she chooses to leave the job to another person, because said person "needs" the money. Much harm has been done, see:

1º. Employer loses the best candidate. Isn't that harm?
2º. Employee gets a job he doesn't deserve, since he wasn't the most qualified applicant. In the long run it'll do more harm, if he wasn't enough qualified, he needs to get better, and he may not realize it.
3º. Lightworker doesn't get money, and everyone gets the impression that being good equates with being a sucker.

Let's leave it clear: there is no harm when the best one wins. Whenever I've participated in a contest which was decided by voting, I always asked the voters for this: "Please vote for the best. It sucks to lose against someone worse than you. But you always learn when you lose to the best, and make it an inspiration to keep on working harder".

Losing always sucks, yeah. But there can be no complaining for losing against the best, it's fair and square, it shows you what you lacked, what you needed, your weak points and what you had to improve. So I see absolutely no selfishness in getting a job for which you are the best applicant. By refusing it, aren't you depriving the employer of the best applicant? What for? Pity for the rest? The rest of the applicants only have to get better than you... and that's going to be good for them, too.

Originally Posted by wolfgang

it occurs to me that a darkworker is a deluded lightworker. darkworkers think they are doing what's best just as a lightworker does. the difference is that the darkworker thinks of being separate from everyone else, or their group is, and that what makes that separate self better or achieve something is best. The lightworker does not see people/animals as separate and doesn't even make a distinction of little self versus other people/animals.

Totally agreed. I see no reason to become a darkworker unless you are on an extremely high level of consciousness. Becoming a darkworker at the levels of anger, courage or desire may not only lead to nasty consequences... It may also lead to jail. I see no point in raping a woman because your body so desires and getting eight years in prison afterwards. The path of the darkworker is dangerous... What's the point in using fear as a motive power if you're going to be afraid of getting caught? Sounds like a crappy life to me. I understand someone "darkworking" by playing piano twelve hours a day until he gets master ability, and refusing to "lose time" helping Mom with the house chores. But using people as if they were animals happens to carry the added trouble of you interacting with people who are able to sue, kick, punch and kill. And it's a stupid risk.

But then again, I always find polarization stupid... Unless it's "partial polarization". I believe in the tit-for-tat system. I am a lightworker to lightworkers and NPCs. Some darkworker tries to "darkwork" me and finds out I happen to have a darkworker side. And of course, when you choose to do something "darkworkingly", don't be afraid and don't feel pity. I only do that in self-defense... And must add that I've found this system very helpful. Nice as a general rule, angelic when possible, damn bastard when attacked. But I don't see the reason why a normal being would want to be a 24/7 darkworker or lightworker. If you are a darkworker and try to use people, at some point you'll get caught and find out that there's a limit to what people will endure. If you are a lightworker, you can't let yourself be treated like a rug... or the bully will go on bullying you and others.

I don't find any reason why a person should be a darkworker. I understand some situations in which you have to get darkworker. But, full life commitment? Don't see the reason. That said, I agree that when you decide you have to be nasty (stopping a bully on his tracks is the most common situation), don't back, don't hesitate, don't feel guilty and don't feel pity. But, a whole lifetime like that? Urgh.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If you consciously embrace selfishness as your highest ideal, you'll be able to greatly accelerate your personal growth and achieve your desires more quickly. A lack of consistency will cease to hold you back. Darkworking is an accelerated path.

For example, if you want to achieve a certain net worth, then generally speaking you can expect to get there much faster via the darkworker route than you will if you refuse to polarize. The lightworker route can also get you there faster if you think such a goal will help you serve others, and income can also be generated as a side effect of service.

I still find any of the choices disempowering. I understand the polarizing stuff when it comes to certain situations. The clearest I remember is when I got rid of my nightmare bully at school. I had been enduring his attacks for five years, and one day I got angry and beat him. When I chose to do so, I beat him hard with a big book. Sure as Hell stopped preying on me. I wouldn't have gotten half that result if I had been thinking "Oh, poor lost guy, his parents don't love him really, they haven't educated him at all, he is just trying to call the attention". No, it was "F***** bastard gets payback today". I see why you ought to polarize in special situations. What I don't see is the reason to polarize as a general rule, in my overall life. I don't know why you can't enjoy your potential and that of others. A darkworker couldn't enjoy honest company and conversation from others? A lightworker couldn't enjoy personal success fully? Sooo disempowering, IMHO.

[Natsu]

Originally Posted by John Prophet

. We organisms are designed to prey on each other and there can never be any such thing universal goodness or peace. “Evil” is an essential part of this world. There must be winners and losers, it is simply inevitable. I know that this isn’t what you were taught and you probably don’t want to believe it; but just try seeing things from that view for just a moment.

I tried to see that from that point of view when I was eight and trying to create a non-religious moral system.

We are humans and need to live in society. Yes, nature is indifferent to suffering, but... life in nature is crap.

Which is the first rule of animals? Law of the strongest, right? And whom does the law of the strongest suit? Why, that's easy, it suits the strongest.

So, a society with no ethics in which people prey each other would be good only for the strongest. Fine, take the vast majority of the population off the list, only a few would benefit from such a system.

We've got this few who benefit from the system. The strongest. Now... are they always that strong? During their whole lives? Possibly not.

So, the "dog eat dog" system is good only for a few, only for a limited amount of time, unless some younger-smarter-stronger predator eats the strong one who was in charge. It's unfair crap and horrible lives for everyone else.

But in a "let's all collaborate and behave" system, everyone has a chance of living to old age, with the best of his success, at the best of his ability.

Now, who on his right mind would choose the "dog eat dog" system over the collaborative one? It's ridiculous... I just find it absolutely unefficient.

As a “darkworker” I see all encompassing goodness as naiveté idealism.

Besides of "all encompassing goodness" there's an "all encompassing society" that has a good healthy habit of screwing the ones who stray too much off the path. Be selfish if you need to. But if you get harmful, the rest of the world has a right to kick your ass.

Other people are not us! Our human standards of morality are not the universe’s concern and humans made up good and evil to suit our own needs.

And they were created because they suit needs. Better than any other behavioural pattern that you can see in nature. And I don't give a damn about nature's concerns here. It's my concerns I'm talking about. I don't want to live worrying about whether some dork will decide to prey on me. If you prey on me, you open the path for me to hit back. You won't like it. You chose to use fear as your main source of willpower? It's up to you, but you'll have to fear some of the people you step in.

Good and evil are a mass delusion, not real.

You don't mind me beating you up bloody with a nailed baseball, right? You won't feel pain, it'll be just a delusion.

The world is a cruel and imperfect place and to survive you must compete in the endless waltz of predator and victim.

The world is a cruel and imperfect place and that's why humans gathered together and chose to collaborate and sort of agreed not to kill each other, so they could work together and stop being both victims and predators to be shepherds, peasants, smiths and other things that didn't get themselves killed.

That’s just how it is. By accepting these dark realities we can use them to our advantage and even enjoy them .

When you use them to your advantage, take care not to step on other people. You may find that some of them may get angry. And one in a bunch will get royally pissed off and get revenge, despite how nice and caring you thought that person was. Some of the nicest guys can get extremelly aggressive when attacked. You were warned.

Demk, if you truly want to understand the upside of being a darkworker then you must be able to slip on a pair of darkworker glasses, if only for a moment .

I totally see your point there. It was a question of trying to understand how a darkworker thinks. Point is, the more I think about it, the more I find it a ridiculous idea. Darkworkers are about ten thousand years obsolete.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Natsu

I still find any of the choices disempowering. I understand the polarizing stuff when it comes to certain situations. The clearest I remember is when I got rid of my nightmare bully at school. I had been enduring his attacks for five years, and one day I got angry and beat him. When I chose to do so, I beat him hard with a big book. Sure as Hell stopped preying on me. I wouldn't have gotten half that result if I had been thinking "Oh, poor lost guy, his parents don't love him really, they haven't educated him at all, he is just trying to call the attention". No, it was "F***** bastard gets payback today". I see why you ought to polarize in special situations. What I don't see is the reason to polarize as a general rule, in my overall life. I don't know why you can't enjoy your potential and that of others. A darkworker couldn't enjoy honest company and conversation from others? A lightworker couldn't enjoy personal success fully? Sooo disempowering, IMHO.

Good that it's just your humble opinion and not everyone elses. Polarization is very useful and empowering if the person really understands it and experiences it. If he doesn't, then it will look like a crazy theory of motivation indeed.


Polarizing makes decision making so much easier and faster. And after the decision is made, the person knows that it was the right decision, giving him more motivation to go after it. It's really something that you have to experience. Everything gets clearer and easier to understand and proccess. And the motivation and energy boost is awesome.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Natsu

When you use them to your advantage, take care not to step on other people. You may find that some of them may get angry. And one in a bunch will get royally pissed off and get revenge, despite how nice and caring you thought that person was. Some of the nicest guys can get extremelly aggressive when attacked. You were warned.

I definitely agree here. A DW must be careful to choose who he steps on. If he steps on the wrong person things may get ugly. But we can't deny the fact that, besides the risks of pissing off the wrong people, stepping on people has many benefits, for the DW of course. Just as an example, look at Roman Abramovich, the owner of approx. 20 billion dollars and of the football team Chelsea. To get as wealthy as he got, one of his acts was the betrayal of a close friend and mentor of his, Boris Berezovsky. He threatened Boris to sell him all his stakes in two large russian companies for very low prices, damaging Boris' in approx. 4 billions, otherwise Boris' stakes would be confiscated by the russian government.
So you see that's how a DW acts. Of course now Roman made so many enemies that he flew away from Russia to Great Britain and always surrounded by a heavy load of bodyguards. But he made it. Me too; i'd rather be the richest of Great Britain as he is but have made many enemies and betrayed a lot of people than be just the average joe blow and live a "morally respectful life", whatever that means...

Originally Posted by Natsu

I totally see your point there. It was a question of trying to understand how a darkworker thinks. Point is, the more I think about it, the more I find it a ridiculous idea. Darkworkers are about ten thousand years obsolete.

As in my example that i wrote before, i don't know where you got this idea that DWs are obsolete. The concept of the DW remains, what changes is the strategies. While a DW of 10000 years ago would go out on a killing spree, the DW today doesn't kill (unless it's really t