Are Darkworkers Evil? (Blog)

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by MasterD

The way I see it persuading people to spend more than they need to boost your commissions is not a DW approach. It is a short-sighted and therefore a stupid approach which will never benefit the person in the longterm; therefore it is sometimes very hard to distinghuish a lightworker form a darkworker.

Might I ask why or how this is not a darkworker approach? You give no facts or anecdotal evidence as to how this is un-darkworker.

I see this approach as darkworker, because they are focusing on how they can increase their power/influence. They may even just be building their influence by increasing their power in manipulation through practice. This is wholeheartedly darkworker to me.

[mercuryrising]

Originally Posted by BringTheDarkness

One other point I want to make. I make no judgements on the spirituality of others. If you WANT to merge with "God", don't let me stop you! I'm not trying to convince anyone to change or think like I do. I merely wanted to point out that there are a lot of misconceptions about my side of the fence.
I'm not trying to tell anyone that their spirituality is wrong; merely that their conception of MY spirituality are wrong.

Hope this helps to clean up any confusion.

BTD

I'm not sure your conception of the other side is correct, either. In the process of becoming closer to the Good or God or whatever you want to call it, you do not get your personality erased. I.e. you do not become a zombie for God. There are people like that, but there are people like that in every demographic you can think of (including yours).

Whether left-hand or right-hand, it is the same Power that animates everything. The question is in how you use that power. I can use a knife to prepare food (to keep up with the analogy) or I could stab someone in the eye. The knife didn't change, it's the way I used it.

I think life is like an instrument or tool that can be used in many different ways. Most people don't know what to do with it at all, so it just sort of lays there. They might as well already be dead. The only real need to distinguish light from dark or left from right is to begin to understand what this tool might be used for and what works best for me.

I think Steve's point is that the more you use the knife to slice bread, the more it looks like a butter knife. The more you use it to stab people in the eye, the more it looks like a dagger. It isn't easy to slice bread with a dagger or to stab people with a butter knife. The instrument conforms to its use.

BTW, BringTheDarkness, thanks for coming on here and discussing this in a clear, intelligent manner. You've made it a much more interesting conversation.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Might I ask why or how this is not a darkworker approach? You give no facts or anecdotal evidence as to how this is un-darkworker.

I see this approach as darkworker, because they are focusing on how they can increase their power/influence. They may even just be building their influence by increasing their power in manipulation through practice. This is wholeheartedly darkworker to me.

I think MasterD is rejecting that it's a clear DW approach all together. That it's a stupid approach. A DW would not do this because it would eventually harm the DW's well being in the future. So it's an attempt to be greedy as a DW is but not well thought out because the DWs motivation to help himself is going to be hindered in the future.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I think MasterD is rejecting that it's a clear DW approach all together. That it's a stupid approach. A DW would not do this because it would eventually harm the DW's well being in the future. So it's an attempt to be greedy as a DW is but not well thought out because the DWs motivation to help himself is going to be hindered in the future.

I don't see any downside to this approach in the way it was presented. There were no specifics included, just that the DW in question is using his skills in manipulation to get people to over spend. I'm just now seeing where it harms the darkworker's well being.

You could do this for 5 days, make $100k, and then use that $100k to hire others to do something else for you at a reduced rate and continue to parlay this ownership to more power.

Where do you see a downside for the darkworker? Unless he is caught or not cunning enough to prevent buyers remorse (you can change someones mentality from want to need very quickly with a bit of suggestion thanks to the many many infused messages in the form of advertisements. I've done so in sales.)

[MasterD]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

I don't see any downside to this approach in the way it was presented. There were no specifics included, just that the DW in question is using his skills in manipulation to get people to over spend. I'm just now seeing where it harms the darkworker's well being.

You could do this for 5 days, make $100k, and then use that $100k to hire others to do something else for you at a reduced rate and continue to parlay this ownership to more power.

Where do you see a downside for the darkworker? Unless he is caught or not cunning enough to prevent buyers remorse (you can change someones mentality from want to need very quickly with a bit of suggestion thanks to the many many infused messages in the form of advertisements. I've done so in sales.)

The downside for the darkworker is clear.

Whenever you feel someone made you buy things you actually didn't need you feel you have been taken and you promise yourself never to buy from him again (unless you are weak and let you be persuaded another time) and you will discourage people you know to do so either (unless you are ashamed and not telling it).

In my opinion a 'smart' darkworker contributes because it will benefit him in the long term.

For instance is 'Think and Grow Rich' a book for darkworkers or for lightworkers? Obviously both can use it. It is one of the #1 success books ever.

In the chapter Auto-Suggestion: "By the first day of January, 19.., I will have in my possession $50000, which will come to me in various amounts from time to time during interim." This is obviously DW thinking. However the sentence continuous "In return for this money I will give the most efficient service of which I am capable, rendering the fullest possible quantity, and the best possible quality of service in the capacity of SALESMAN of..... (describe the service or merchandise you intend to sell" This is obviously LW thinking.

I couldn't think of a situation where it would be beneficial for someone to trick someone else into buying, especially if you are taking 'opportunity cost' into account (the time/money you spent which you can't spend anymore on another service/sale to make money). The world is too small to keep tricking people into buying. Eventually you get caught and therefore you would be a short-sighted, stupid darkworker.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by MasterD

The downside for the darkworker is clear.

Whenever you feel someone made you buy things you actually didn't need you feel you have been taken and you promise yourself never to buy from him again (unless you are weak and let you be persuaded another time) and you will discourage people you know to do so either (unless you are ashamed and not telling it).

In my opinion a 'smart' darkworker contributes because it will benefit him in the long term.

For instance is 'Think and Grow Rich' a book for darkworkers or for lightworkers? Obviously both can use it. It is one of the #1 success books ever.

In the chapter Auto-Suggestion: "By the first day of January, 19.., I will have in my possession $50000, which will come to me in various amounts from time to time during interim." This is obviously DW thinking. However the sentence continuous "In return for this money I will give the most efficient service of which I am capable, rendering the fullest possible quantity, and the best possible quality of service in the capacity of SALESMAN of..... (describe the service or merchandise you intend to sell" This is obviously LW thinking.

I couldn't think of a situation where it would be beneficial for someone to trick someone else into buying, especially if you are taking 'opportunity cost' into account (the time/money you spent which you can't spend anymore on another service/sale to make money). The world is too small to keep tricking people into buying. Eventually you get caught and therefore you would be a short-sighted, stupid darkworker.

I agree with you. I think that the best a DW can do, when possible, is to take advantage of the buyer but at the same time make the buyer think that he's the got advantage, or that the trade was fair.

Tricking the clients while they're aware of it is virtually never a good deal. Even if you're never going to deal with them again (in the case they're one-time buyers), they're going to spread bad information about you and scare away other possible future clients.


Sometimes its even better to let them have the advantage of the deal, which will make them think that you're either dumb, soft, generous, and so on. They'll trust you more and when you sell them some more significant/expensive products/services you can bite them in the a** and they won't even know it, thinking that the price is still fair/advantageous to them. Of course if they find out (and, in this age of information, they probably will sooner or later), you loose them, but depending on the advantage you already got from them it may be a good deal.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I think that the best a DW can do, when possible, is to take advantage of the buyer but at the same time make the buyer think that he's the got advantage, or that the trade was fair.

Deception is part of the darkworker strategy. If they take advantage of someone, they'll present it as a good deal for the client/customer, even if they have to keep lying about it.

Darkworkers don't care about fairness, but an intelligent darkworker will cultivate the illusion of fairness when they believe it will serve their needs.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I agree with you. I think that the best a DW can do, when possible, is to take advantage of the buyer but at the same time make the buyer think that he's the got advantage, or that the trade was fair.

Tricking the clients while they're aware of it is virtually never a good deal. Even if you're never going to deal with them again (in the case they're one-time buyers), they're going to spread bad information about you and scare away other possible future clients.


Sometimes its even better to let them have the advantage of the deal, which will make them think that you're either dumb, soft, generous, and so on. They'll trust you more and when you sell them some more significant/expensive products/services you can bite them in the a** and they won't even know it, thinking that the price is still fair/advantageous to them. Of course if they find out (and, in this age of information, they probably will sooner or later), you loose them, but depending on the advantage you already got from them it may be a good deal.

In the beginning of this conversation, however, you mentioned nothing about how the client/purchaser feels. I agree completely with you when you say they can take advantage and make them feel they've made the right choice at the same time, and that's exactly what my point was previously.

Originally Posted by Sam988

The way I see it persuading people to spend more than they need to boost your commissions is not a DW approach. It is a short-sighted and therefore a stupid approach which will never benefit the person in the longterm

I think you can probably cheat someone and have them accept it pretty easily as the correct choice. Just tell them you gave them the correct choice in explanatory terms that they understand and you're often fine.

Not everyone is so experienced with language and logic as those who use these forums and view these texts. There are masses of more easily exploitable people out there, in my opinion.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

In the beginning of this conversation, however, you mentioned nothing about how the client/purchaser feels.

And what does it matter, to a DW, how the client/purchaser feels, as long as it's not going to backfire at the DW in the long term?

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Sam988

And what does it matter, to a DW, how the client/purchaser feels, as long as it's not going to backfire at the DW in the long term?

A darkworker keeps feelings of others in mind because emotion is a strong tool to be used in manipulating.

Assumedly, the darkworker is just indifferent to what the feeling is.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I don't think that there's another valid polarity. I mean, we either do things, ultimately, for ourselves or for others. If your goal is to pursuit art, then why are you pursuing it? To be recognized as a great artist, to become famous, to bring joy to other people, to make money, and so on.

Like I said: because art is awesome and beautiful (even when it's horrible). Because it's right to channel art into this world whether it helps you or anyone else or not.

Originally Posted by Sam988

In your case, it probably brings you joy/happiness; so you're doing it for your own pleasure, and you're getting a personal benefit out of it, which means that it's more towards DW motivation because you care only about the pleasure you're getting. You get the point? There's no "for it's own sake" in my opinion. Everything has a higher motivation behind it than "for it's own sake".

Then I strongly disagree with your opinion. Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy? Sure, if you don't have your physical and emotional needs met, then your focus is on getting them met. But when you're fed, housed, loved and personally satisfied, then you have no need to do things for yourself - or for others. Everything you do is "for it's own sake".

Are you familiar with Daoism? Daoism is an entire belief system of "for its own sake". You don't do things for yourself, you don't do things for others - you just do things because they are the natural thing to do in those circumstances.

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

You're a salesperson. Will you persuade people to spend more than they need to boost your commissions? Will you favor profitability over genuine service? Or will you go out of your way to serve people, even if you lose money in the process? Either path can succeed, but non-polarized people will be the worst off because they'll hold back and be too lazy (too little greed and too little service).

Steve, I'm sure I remember a blog of yours (rightly) pointing out that the best way to serve yourself is to give value to others. Quite clearly the first approach in your example above would result in diminished business and be detrimental to everyone. It would be a poor path for LWs or DWs.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

interesting. do they also see this energy as a DC type of energy or a AC type of vibration.

AC and DC aren't energy. they are just different styles of electric currents... if you want the closer comparison to contemporary popular phenomenon, torsion fields are most similar to faraday electromagnetic fields or to einstein general-relativity curved spacetime.

was his energy being directed or was he just able to generate a field of this energy around him. not so much a flow but a radiance.

both

is this also chi or prana?

yes

google time

definitely

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by Keith

Then I strongly disagree with your opinion. Are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy? Sure, if you don't have your physical and emotional needs met, then your focus is on getting them met. But when you're fed, housed, loved and personally satisfied, then you have no need to do things for yourself - or for others. Everything you do is "for it's own sake".

Everyone always needs something. No one is "completely satisfied". So it's impossible to get to the level where you just do things "for their own sake".
As you said in your example, that you think "it' right to channel art into the world". But why is that? Why do you like art so much? Isn't it because you feel well when doing art? You may not have DW motivation; you may want to make people see how good for them art is. In that case, it's a LW motivation. Whether it's DW or LW, one of these is behind what you do, you just need to dig enough to find it.

[shnu]

Originally Posted by Keith

Are you familiar with Daoism? Daoism is an entire belief system of "for its own sake". You don't do things for yourself, you don't do things for others - you just do things because they are the natural thing to do in those circumstances.

Right. The Daoist ideal of wuwei appears inconsistent with polarisation. If we accept everything Steve has said about polarisation, then it follows that Daoists are NPCs, that they are not on any sort of fast track to high awareness, and that their philosophy is a bunch of deluded bunk. It's sort of surprising that he credits daoism as an influence, really.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by shnu

Right. The Daoist ideal of wuwei appears inconsistent with polarisation.

It seems to me that Daoists have polarised to a third alternative option (wu wei). They certainly aren't oscillating back and forth in indecision like you'd expect of "NPCs" - they are intently focussed on an indivisible "true north" polarity, just not one that falls under "self" or "other".

In fact, it seems to me that anything that can be seen as "the meaning of life" could serve as a focus of polarisation.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

A simple example of the darkworker connection strategy:

Was Darth Vader connected?

Absolutely. He didn't isolate himself from others. His connection took the form of control. The more he controlled and dominated, the more connected he was. His Empire was his outlet for connection. He would feel disconnected if he wasn't in power.

He also connected to the dark side of the force and to the Emperor.

Switching polarities at the last minute ultimately killed him. Big mistake for a darkworker.

Another interpretation would be that Darth Vader saved his soul by doing this. Just before he died he became a free person once more, instead of being dark. No mistake but redemption.

[Dave Kaminski]

The Dao concern is where Steve's argument breaks down with me, in terms of logic, anyways.

Although I don't see anywhere where Steve says Lightworker and Darkworker are the ONLY polarities, I think those who assume this to be the case are mistaken. They may be the only polarities that regard focusing inward or outward specifically, but they're certainly not the only things you can polarize yourself.

Polarization to any of these things, I imagine, could have some very powerful results as well. I think it's less about energy (like the 'flow' of energy from a lightworker/darkworker) and more about pure intention/action correlation.

Lets say you wanted to become an ARTist. We know the word already; we can use it as an example:

You polarize with art. You decide that art is your purpose and your point of being. Your clothing and skin and words and output becomes art. You reflect on every possible means of communication or action you have and make it an artistic endeavour. Everything you do is to make yourself a better artist in every possible way.

Of course you're going to be a better artist in 30 days. Art is your thing. It is quite literally all you focus on. 10 years like this and you're not only an art genius but have interesting perspectives in regards to art on everything you see because you've experienced it and added some sort of artistic flair to it.

This can be said for a polarized scientist, preist, teacher, etc. These people would be seen as polarizing with their action or understanding in any school of thought. They will excel.

[Grandsummon]

@ Dave: But then again, what would be your motivation to create art?

I like to see this as a labyrinth. To ensure a way out, you'd have follow either left or right. You could of course get out by guessing, but the chances of getting out aren't that great then and you'd be confused a great deal of the time.
The left and the right path are different paths, but they end up leading you to the same destination.

[MasterD]

The way I see it now is that the DW (as the tricky bastard) is still completely identified with his mind and his thinking.

Anyone who has reached a certain point of awakening will see the greater perspective and oneness in things and will renounce the DW path.

It's that part; what Steve describes; will I be willing to die broke, but having affected millions of lifes in a positive way? Yes. Will I be willing to die extremely rich, but have had a negative impact on the well-being of the rest of the world? No. I think everyone who has lost the identification with his mind/ego/thinking, etc.. will make that very same decision in the end.