keep growing until what??

[oldbiker]

Hi steve, im so impressed by your writings.
you always talk about self-growth as if it something that is supposed to keep going on forever.
but some times i wonder, what is the highest and most precious goal of this growth? i mean, we might dream of reaching something specific in our life and maybe get the habit of continuous planning and achieving goals. but what is the father goal? u know, if we are expected to get old and loose some or most of our abilities... if we are guaranteed preys of this rhythm of life... i think u got the point.. again.. what is the father goal?

[wolfgang]

I feel this way too. Or reminds me of what the heck is the point sometimes in personal developement. I would venture to say once one is in a place of mostly happiness and ability to provide then bigger goals can be taken on. But also I'd think those goals would start becoming how to help others - and there are endless ways to help others. I also wonder, in general about spiritual growth and awareness and how far that can go. I can image spiritual growth being something that literally has no end - it's infinte what can become of going through enlightenment and meditating and also bringing that back to humanity. So,maybe personal development is the ground work to go into spiritual growth. Again, once one has acheived enough to be self sufficient, say - then there is much more room for spiritual endevours and helping others.

[Angela]

Who says there's a father goal? In fact, who says there has to be a goal at all?

[silicon toad2000]

Read Steve's article on moving from a 7 to a 10

How to Get From a 7 to a 10

I tried to paraphrase but Steve puts it so much better. The article might help you out.

[Parthon]

I think it's a matter of perception. Most people see growth as somewhere you start from and some time in the future you and up somewhere else, almost as if there was a predestined place you were to arrive. The truth of it is that there is no future. The future that is out there is imaginary, a projection of our thoughts into what could be. The reality of it is that you get there only through the present moment, which is all there is.

Now when you only have the present moment, the question becomes something different. You are where you are, but there's also the direction in which you are heading. Rather than having a Start and End, you have a Location and Direction. This direction can either be growth or decay, even standing still will have a tiny bit of one or the other in it. Growth then isn't a goal to arrive at, but an aim to live by, a direction to follow and a path to proceed on.

The question then is "Do you, right now, grow or decay?"

Another one of Steve's great articles on this topic is: Self Acceptance vs Personal Growth

[MasterD]

For me personal growth is getting ready for times where huge crises show up in my personal life or in the world and I will be able to handle it.

[Ree]

I've thought about this some and I've come to the conclusion that my goal isn't a fixed goal, rather as I reach one goal another one is established in its place. What I have found is that my level of self-satisfaction with the life I'm living is much greater.

In years gone by my goals were outward based, such as getting my career going, money in the bank, buying my dream house and putting in a pool

Now, my goals are more inward based and have to do more with the quality of person I think I am currently and that I am working to become.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by oldbiker

Hi steve, im so impressed by your writings.
you always talk about self-growth as if it something that is supposed to keep going on forever.
but some times i wonder, what is the highest and most precious goal of this growth? i mean, we might dream of reaching something specific in our life and maybe get the habit of continuous planning and achieving goals. but what is the father goal? u know, if we are expected to get old and loose some or most of our abilities... if we are guaranteed preys of this rhythm of life... i think u got the point.. again.. what is the father goal?

Personal development is to be regarded like therapy. It makes you better at what you already want to do. It fine tunes you. What you are talking about goes into philosophy which is definately not to be confused with personal development. If you look at my thread on Ayn Rand you'll see what happens when you mix the two. :/

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Angela

Who says there's a father goal? In fact, who says there has to be a goal at all?

I have a few thoughts on this which I can't justify in this reply but are worth considering and if you want to find justification I can offer the sources of my arguments.

It could be argued that without a teleology, and an account of what we think is good and bad that derives from that teleology, we are in a severely deprived state. Without an objective understanding of good and bad we are left with moral debates that cannot be settled.

Abortion
Euthanasia
Crime and punishment
Foreign policy
Whether person A deserves to receive what they have earned or whether priority should go to ensuring person B has basic "human rights" and reduce A's salary in order to give B what they need.

You've heard all the arguments for and against. You know that there is no "right" answer. It's because it comes down to choosing which values mean most to us and eventually it is a matter of "opinion". Nevertheless we act as if we have objective reasons for holding our opinions in spite of this fact. It is a facade of objectivity.

Ever noticed that so much of political debate involves "unmasking" the opposition? Well ultimately everyone can be unmasked as having fictional arguments for holding their viewpoint and in the end the loudest voice in these very shrill debates will "win."

Without a socially assented to concept of the true end of human life we are left with emotivism. In emotivism the distinction between manipulative and non-manipulative behaviours is lost, as well as the distinction between power and authority. Emotivism fosters manipulative social relationships, a government devoid of real authority and these incommensurable moral debates. What's more without a knowledge of our place in the world, many people feel (rightly or wrongly) that their life is devoid of meaning.

What can provide meaning? What could be the ultimate telos of human life? Becoming aware of God. Whether this appreciation be found through meditation, reading Eckhart Tolle's books or good old religion, it doesn't matter. Subordinate to the appreciation of God/oneness/The Now would be human virtues. These are characteristics that we could praise as being beneficial to providing a peaceful society, with economic growth and good living standards. Law exists simultaneously. Anybody who breaks the law can be considered to have signed themselves out of society because they clearly don't share the common goal. People are not punished for a lack of virtue but there is no praise to be found in it.

We therefore have a metaphysical telos and a practical account of the virtues to which we can aspire to mould our character.

[Brutha]

It's not about the destination but about the way.

[oldbiker]

Personal development is to be regarded like therapy. It makes you better at what you already want to do. It fine tunes you. What you are talking about goes into philosophy which is definately not to be confused with personal development. If you look at my thread on Ayn Rand you'll see what happens when you mix the two. :/

I think self development itself is kind of philosophy. ok, its not the kind of phil. we know, they both share some points though. and thats what causes the trouble.

[tekomino]

The highs are short lived, the journey takes up most of the time. If you don't enjoy the journey is 5 minutes of satisfaction worth it?

And if you do enjoy the journey, does it matter where you are going and when you will arrive?

[Mags]

Abraham (as in Abraham-Hicks) often says "you are never done" (Isn't there also a sports slogan something like that?! "I am not done"?!).

I think it's exciting that my life is constantly evolving and changing - as I progress towards one goal, I learn new things which introduce me to new subjects to learn about, new experiences I wish to have, new goals I'd like to achieve. I love that I will never be done!

[Angela]

Plato, I don't understand how your last post is in response to my questions that you posted. I was talking about goals, and you seemed to be talking about meaning and morality?

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Angela

Plato, I don't understand how your last post is in response to my questions that you posted. I was talking about goals, and you seemed to be talking about meaning and morality?

What's the difference?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Plato

What's the difference?

To be clear, you are asking, what's the difference between goals, and meaning/morality? I am little surprised by that question, because to me it is like asking the difference between koala bears and heartbreak.

[fellowtraveler]

If you strongly suspect, as I do, that this "life" is not the limiting beginning or end of your spirit, then the "goal" is to keep on learning the lessons, which you will build upon duriing your subsequent lifetimes. There may be a grand ending point to everything (I doubt it), but for me the end of this life will only mean I'll carry on with it in another existence..

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Angela

To be clear, you are asking, what's the difference between goals, and meaning/morality? I am little surprised by that question, because to me it is like asking the difference between koala bears and heartbreak.

Cool, then it shouldn't be difficult to explain the difference?

[loulou]

I do not know if there is an afterlife, I'd like to think so, so I do live by a moral code, not a religious one though.

I think our ultimate goal in this life, is to be accepted by other people. Think about it, every goal we set ourselves is to make ourselves grow or become succesfull, or accomplished, or well travelled, or to make ourselves fun people. All of these minor goals, they are just goals we set to achieve the ultimate goal of love. I think everybody just wants to feel accepted, even by just one person.

I know I set myself goals, and try to grow and become smarter. It is partially because I want to reach my potential, but honestly, it is mostly because I want people to look at my life and think, wow. I recently come to accept the fact that I try, usually subconciously, to make people fall for me, because all this self growth, it is just part of a big human chase to be better, so people will want you.

[John Prophet]

The race for success has no finish line- so technically, it's more like a death march.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Plato

Cool, then it shouldn't be difficult to explain the difference?

It is easy to explain the difference*, but I still don't see how your post is in response to what I said.

*A goal is: an achievement or result towards which effort is directed, meaning is inherent significance, and morality is a system of living in accord with a notion of adhering to right or wrong conduct.

A koala is a cute furry animal, and heartbreak is an emotional response.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Angela

It is easy to explain the difference*, but I still don't see how your post is in response to what I said.

*A goal is: an achievement or result towards which effort is directed, meaning is inherent significance, and morality is a system of living in accord with a notion of adhering to right or wrong conduct.

Well I would argue that no objective morality exists that isn't derived from a greater goal or teleology, which was the point of your original post. I'm assuming that goals generally are derived from the 'father' goal(s) or otherwise they are pointless and out of context. In my view then goals are not arbitrary end points to be aimed for, they are expressions of what we want to happen and implicit in them are how we ought to behave (if we wish to realise our goals). Right and wrong cannot be plucked from the air, they must derive from something. In virtue ethics (which is the system I'm proponing) right and wrong are in fact behaviours that will aid in the fulfilment of a telos (end purpose). All other systems of morality can be demonstrated to be either fictional or subjective. The enlightenment project of the 18th, 19th centuries was an attempt to justify an objective morality without the concept of an end purpose, which had been rejected during the reformation. They failed and not because of a lack of intellect but because it is not possible.

My point is there must be a further goal (preferrably shared by a society but not neccessarily) from which all decisions can be based and all judgments made. A morality without this is just subjective preference and we are left with a society that acts as if emotivism were true. And the problems with that are it fosters manipulative relationships, provides us with incommensurable moral debates and a government devoid of authority.

In the context of personal growth: there's no point in setting goals at all unless there is a purpose to those goals... right? We don't grow for growth's sake otherwise it literally a pointless existence. Not to say we can't enjoy ourselves, but it is pointless.

In relation to what a teleology could be, I suggested in my other post that there could be the metaphysical teleology of contemplating the divine. That could be worship of God or apprecation of the Now... I think most who have experienced it would agree that it is the highest form of being.

Subordinate to that would be virtues or character traits that better enable both the contemplation of the divine (similar to the fourth noble truth of Buddhism- the path to freedom from suffering, which is really a code of ethics) and service to the self and society on a practical level. The purpose of government in a society which accepted such a scheme would be to help maintain peace via law but also to cultivate these virtues in the people. As opposed to the goals of our current society which are... unclear to say the least... is it economic growth, helping people live the american dream or maintianing power or what?

A single person can choose their own telelogy without being part of such a society. Many people probably already do live in such a way without making it explicit in the way I am attempting to but the benefits of doing this are that we can see objective ways that we should behave. The most obvious teleological scheme is the one I have proposed and it is expressed best in the works of Thomas Aquinas, which is an adaptation of Aristotelianism. Followers of eastern religions already live by such a scheme.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Plato

Well I would argue that no objective morality exists that isn't derived from a greater goal or teleology, which was the point of your original post.

Oh, was that the point of my original post? I hadn't realized. Thanks for pointing that out!

Actually, I don't believe any objective morality exists, period. My post was asking, "who says there has to be a goal" father- or otherwise? -- as if it is just an undisputable fact that we must have goals. I don't see the necessity of goals, except in the most basic of ways, such as reaching for an apple. I think it's funny that people believe thoughts like, "But you have to have a goal!" (or any other thought, come to think of it!) as if it were The Truth.

I see goals more and more as mere, secondary signposts, little game flags that give me a fun signal about who I'm being. The being is the primary part. But that's not The Truth!

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Angela

Oh, was that the point of my original post? I hadn't realized. Thanks for pointing that out!

My bad.

Originally Posted by Angela

Actually, I don't believe any objective morality exists, period. My post was asking, "who says there has to be a goal" father- or otherwise? -- as if it is just an undisputable fact that we must have goals. I don't see the necessity of goals, except in the most basic of ways, such as reaching for an apple. I think it's funny that people believe thoughts like, "But you have to have a goal!" (or any other thought, come to think of it!) as if it were The Truth.

I see goals more and more as mere, secondary signposts, little game flags that give me a fun signal about who I'm being. The being is the primary part. But that's not The Truth!

I agree that it's all about being. Awareness of just being is what I meant by contemplation of the divine.

My argument rests in the assumption that there are characteristics that aid us in becoming aware of being. The goal is the realisation of those virtuous characteristics and subsequent appreciation of love and life versus a person who does not possess virtuous characteristics and subsequently does not experience that. Also assumed is that these virtuous characteristics are not inherent in all people but are learned, particularly from the observation of role models and ourselves. Full incorporation of those virtues into the way you are would be fulfilment of the telos, and the goal is no longer a goal: it's a reality- as is perhaps happening for you . As you can see, in this scheme the telos is simultaneously an end and a path.