Evidence for service to self = service to others

[Plato]

I understand that within a subjective reality and one consciousness the concept of service to self = service to others holds true. It's analytically true.

My question to Steve is does this hold true in an objective reality? Jeremy Bentham made this claim in his original conception of utilitarianism- it's what allowed him to make the move from satisfying one's own happiness to serving the greatest happiness. Of course he left the condition that only the most enlightened, educated individuals would be able to see the truth of this.

It's an empirical claim and one that I simply can't see the truth of and neither could John Stuart Mill. For it to be true there could not exist any examples that contradict it and it further depends on how you understand what happiness or "good" is too. What really counts as serving others if we don't even know what we're here for and have no way of measuring happiness? Perhaps we are meant to suffer in order to develop character as some christians might claim. That said, Steve, I think you have come up with the best possible service to the majority in helping us become more conscious.

Anyway, to put it into Pavlina terminology, how would a fear-polarized person who believes they are living in an objective reality come to the conclusion (at the highest level) that service to self is service to others? Does it depend on complete enlightenment at which point the darkworker (supposedly) feels uninhibitted love and compassion for others? I'm confusing myself now o_0

[Dive Bomb]

I have understood the polarization techniques to be useful when trying to motivate or find energy to achieve certain goals. Take the popular idea around here of starting a business. The concept of trying to make money and provide a service remain the same whether you are a dark or light worker. From what I understand, the polarity answers why you are starting the business in the first place.

Since you like serving others, in a sense you are serving yourself because you are doing something that gives the self joy in helping others. Reverse that for a dark polarity. Since you want to serve the self, you would want to do things that would help others so that in return you would recieve the benefits of helping them.

[Plato]

That doesn't work though. That argument is basically saying that prudence will almost inadvertently cause you to serve others in your self service. This is not always the case. Certainly for a person on whom other people are dependent (a.k.a. in a position of power) this will often not apply.

[Plato]

Can nobody counter what I just said? Is it given that service to self is not equivalent to service to others in an objective reality?

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Plato

Can nobody counter what I just said? Is it given that service to self is not equivalent to service to others in an objective reality?

I have a totally different view on polarization. In my view, a fear based approach accomplishes nothing but destruction. Self-Love and World-Love, in balance, is in my opinion the path towards enlightenment. Why? Because once you go up the levels of enlightenment, the lines blur as to where Self end and World begins. Meaning, on a large enough scale, you will realize that one day that in order to have your best interests at heart, you have to have the world's best interests at heart.

Meaning, every cause has an effect, and it always comes home. Indirectly, eventually, everything someone "out there" does affects you. If there is a nuclear explosion somewhere in the world, it affects me. If there is an oil spill, it affects me, etc. Just because we don't see the effects of something yet, doesn't mean they're not there.

Anyway... my suggestion is this....ignore Polarity.

[Plato]

You know, I really want to believe it's true. It would solve all my issues about morality which are currently screwing me up inside. I see the logic there Paul- as the scale tends towards infinity (a.k.a. subjective reality in this case) it becomes more and more true. For now I'm happy to settle with the conclusion that spreading joy is a good thing.

[Brutha]

You probably should read Ayn Rand to get the perspective you search.

[Freelancer]

You can't put idea's who have there basis in Subjective Reality into a Objective Reality model. Offcourse this won't work, the entire basis of which the theories are build is different.

Personally I don't particulary like the light/darkworker terms and I think more people are being screwed up by them then helped, I wish steve never coined these terms.

Subjective reality though is very interesting way of putting it all into a understandable and logical framework. Reading eastern philosophy is much less clear about these type of subjects.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Brutha

You probably should read Ayn Rand to get the perspective you search.

I'll have a look.

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Subjective reality though is very interesting way of putting it all into a understandable and logical framework. Reading eastern philosophy is much less clear about these type of subjects.

Yup, Steve does a great job of explaining Hinduism (subjective reality).

[Dive Bomb]

Originally Posted by Plato

Can nobody counter what I just said? Is it given that service to self is not equivalent to service to others in an objective reality?

To me that's how it seems to be presented. You're right though, certain circumstances seem to contradict that idea. I myself do not subscribe to the polarity theory, but the way I explained it was how I generally understood it as I tried summing up all of Steve's posts about the concept.

I actually agree with Paul in that as you climb higher in awareness, the lines begin to blur between serving the self and others.

[lifeforce]

Originally Posted by Plato

Yup, Steve does a great job of explaining Hinduism (subjective reality).

Is it true that buddism comes from hinduism? Wasn't budda a hinduist? Would that make buddism subjective reality too?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by lifeforce

Would that make buddism subjective reality too?

LOL, Buddhism is the most "subjective reality-ish" religion / philosophy of all. Here's a quote from Gautama Buddha himself:

"“We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts.
With our thoughts, we make the world.”

[coLLege kid07]

Live it and discover it for yourself

[Plato]

Originally Posted by lifeforce

Is it true that buddism comes from hinduism? Wasn't budda a hinduist? Would that make buddism subjective reality too?

Buddhism and Hinduism are very much anti-dualistic... they believe there is only one type of substance that exist in the world: buddhism, matter and Hinduism, spirit.

Buddhism is objective reality, although our perceptions create the illusion of subjectivity. The quote above from ALG is meant to mean that the illusion of self arises from thoughts. We must end the cycle of Samsara by realising that we are impermanent and contingent beings and in fact there is no "we" at all. The central thesis of Buddhism is the concept of No-Self. When this is realised we enter a state of Nirvana.

That is completely opposite to Hinduism. They expound a subjective reality in which we have an essential spirit (Atman) which is equivalent to God/Everything/Oneness(Brahman). Moksha, is the realisation that everything is one.

Yes, the Buddha was a Hindu originally. He then went against everything that Hinduism preaches.

[Plato]

I'm starting to see how service to self = service to others anyway.

In order to sell things to people and control them you have to understand their individual needs, and dangle the appropriate carrot in front of them. This makes them happy for a bit I suppose.

[ProjectX]

Originally Posted by impaul99

I have a totally different view on polarization. In my view, a fear based approach accomplishes nothing but destruction. Self-Love and World-Love, in balance, is in my opinion the path towards enlightenment. Why? Because once you go up the levels of enlightenment, the lines blur as to where Self end and World begins. Meaning, on a large enough scale, you will realize that one day that in order to have your best interests at heart, you have to have the world's best interests at heart.

Meaning, every cause has an effect, and it always comes home. Indirectly, eventually, everything someone "out there" does affects you. If there is a nuclear explosion somewhere in the world, it affects me. If there is an oil spill, it affects me, etc. Just because we don't see the effects of something yet, doesn't mean they're not there.

Anyway... my suggestion is this....ignore Polarity.

I fully agree with your statement. I believe that self-service=service to the world. They are both highly interdependent.
The ultimate service is bringing and spreading joy. Joy has a multiplier effect, the more you give the more you receive. Its like interest and investment but without the risk,