Do you agree with Steve that it's not easy to get to joy?

[anamoly]

I was reading the Steve Pavlina interview in regards to his thoughts on a million things available here: Steve Pavlina Interview - Part 1 - Entrepreneurs-Journey.com by Yaro Starak

I stopped reading at this quote because I found that it contradicted the true nature of reality and wanted to make a post about it.

But it's not remotely easy to get to this point. There are vast expanses of conscious development that have to be crossed first.

Once humans dis identify from the mind and not mistake their thoughts for their true nature (by listening the mind - not clinging to ideas - not judging them - observe which thoughts carry negative emotional charges and choose to discard them), then joy is easily accessible. I know this because one day I was able to access it when before I was suffering from an unconscious life. Anyone can make the choice to easily connect with joy and peace now (Power of Now, a New Earth) and this I truly know to be the truth.

I suppose that maybe we simply have two different relations to the word "easy." I find hard work easy once I do it from a state of consciousness such as peace, joy, empty mind, or enthusiasm.

Maybe Steve just wants us all to remain unconscious so he can continue to make his millions from our unconsciousness. Stop intending our doom .

BTW Steve if you read this - I didn't find an easy way to make the entrepreneur's link into clickable text. (IE <A HREF="sss">here</A> the "here" part is what I mean by clickable text - The little web button with the clip didn't give me an option )

[Steve Pavlina]

It sounds like you're confusing the emotional state of joy (short-term, easily accessible) with the level of consciousness of joy (long-term, takes a lot of conscious development to reach). The first one is how you feel in the moment, and you can experience it via Power of Now techniques and the like. The second one is your background level of awareness, which is an entirely different kind of beast.

I freely admit it's problematic to use the word joy to describe both. I think it makes sense to use joy to describe the emotional state, but it's probably not the best term to use to describe the level of consciousness. I'm at a bit of a loss for a better word though. Joy is the emotional residue of that particular level of consciousness, but the underlying structure of it is far more complex IMO. Perhaps a good word to describe it is truth, since it feel like the true nature of reality really opens up at that point, and life becomes much easier.

[Iamsuperman]

Steve, have you reached the LOC "Joy" as your default state? Do you still feel constant euphoria from being at a high LOC or does that wear off?

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Iamsuperman

Steve, have you reached the LOC "Joy" as your default state? Do you still feel constant euphoria from being at a high LOC or does that wear off?

Honestly I no longer use that paradigm for my own development. I thought it was really interesting when I first encountered it, but after a while I found it too limiting to think in those terms.

I think the LOC of joy comes from seeing the world a certain way. You stop interacting with the world from a place of fear. That joyful feeling is what arises when you grasp that nothing in the physical universe can possibly harm you. Your physical avatar may get smooshed, but the consciousness in which he arises is indestructible, and you're that consciousness, not the avatar. Without fearing for your survival, the game of life becomes much more fun because you know you can't really lose.

I think a better label to describe this state would be the word "fun." When you're playing a fun game, even the scary and challenging parts are enjoyable and exciting, as long as you remain aware that it's a game and can't really hurt you.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I think a better label to describe this state would be the word "fun." When you're playing a fun game, even the scary and challenging parts are enjoyable and exciting, as long as you remain aware that it's a game and can't really hurt you.

I think Joseph Campbell described it as discovering your bliss. Fun works for me as well.

[Silent Lucidity]

It seems that the better you understand yourself, the easier it is to access a state of joy. Basically you know what makes you happy, and do it. The understanding can be conscious, intuitive or unconscious. In a way the human quest for enlightnement (a constant state of joy?) can be compared to Steve's article about the 'hopeless situation'. Perhaps some believe it can never be achieved, as the human brain does not have the physical capacity to understand everything in the universe. Others believe that the quest for enlightenment itself must be abandoned in order to achieve it. It's a zen-like concept. Once you surrender to that, and stop looking for enlightenment, there are three things that can happen: You can stop trying to find enlightenment and start to make yourself happy. You can play to learn instead of playing to win. You can live your life around giving value to society, and happiness to others. All of these will result in enlightenment. All of these will also bring joy.

Another thought; if an enlightened state includes moments of deep empathy for others who may be suffering, would an enlightened person experience joy during those moments as well? I'd say yes and no, as if you are egoless, you 'become' the other for brief moments of time... thus adding to joy (the expanding joy of understanding others/self/universe), and detracting from the current moment of ego-based joy.

I've had unusual states of intense joy, bliss and creation over the last month or so, more than I've had in a long while, due to the realization of a new life purpose unfolding. If somehow I sabatoge this opportunity through fear-based LoA, than how do I keep this state of joy I have? Food for thought.... as I sit here I've already answered all my own questions. They are to do with commitment to my the purpose regardless of if the signpost opportunity continues or not.

So this is an example of how moments of joy are transient until one gets to that higher level of consciousness.

I think non-ego based love of the awareness is the key to joy.. and if you can't do self-love, try self-acceptance first, and just be okay with that... then suddenly self-love happens on it's own, and that's joyful.

[Iamsuperman]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Honestly I no longer use that paradigm for my own development. I thought it was really interesting when I first encountered it, but after a while I found it too limiting to think in those terms.

Oh, I'm kind of upset by that because I've been using it as a guide for my development since I read Power vs. Force. I always thought that it was the ultimate truth (looking back that sounds freakishly like a religion) and that nothing else in a persons life is really significant compared to a persons LOC.

It has helped me though, it gives me hints on how to reach the next level and every level I've raised has come with incredible benefits (and almost makes every other PD improvement I've made seem insignificant). Right now I don't see this paradigm as limiting, I see it as empowering because it's created such positive effects in my life. However perhaps the reason I see it as empowering and you see it as limiting may be because you're at a higher LOC and have more awareness then me, or perhaps we just have different personalities therefore different perspectives. For now I'm going to continue using it as a guide and/or map on my journey toward enlightenment.

[Steve Pavlina]

I think Hawkins' LoC is a good model, but the problem is that when you use it with other people, it can devolve into something competitive. You start thinking you're higher or lower than other people, and that becomes a trap. That disconnects you from others, and then the whole thing becomes an egoic pursuit.

The model is useful, however, when you apply it to yourself. It can help you identify what to work on next. But as you improve, it makes sense that you should feel even more connected and tuned in to the people around you, not separated by rungs on a ladder.

[Plato]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I think a better label to describe this state would be the word "fun." When you're playing a fun game, even the scary and challenging parts are enjoyable and exciting, as long as you remain aware that it's a game and can't really hurt you.

Wow, that's interesting. It changes my understanding of the concept and it makes sense. It makes me think of a concept another personal development guru recently coined "self amusement."

[Iamsuperman]

Yes Steve, I agree completely. I remeber when I first learned about the levels I fell into that egoic trap (I reached neutrality and then got really ego wrapped and fell back to pride ). Fortunately I learned from it and it doesn't happen to me anymore.

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

That joyful feeling is what arises when you grasp that nothing in the physical universe can possibly harm you. Your physical avatar may get smooshed, but the consciousness in which he arises is indestructible, and you're that consciousness, not the avatar. Without fearing for your survival, the game of life becomes much more fun because you know you can't really lose.

And that is where you are wrong. The consciousness has its opposite. It is nothingness, no-consciousness non-existence. Without its opposite, it would not exists. Everything has it extreme opposing state. Name something that does not.

Light - Dark, Life - Death, Matter - Antimatter... You name it. Nothing exists without its opposing state. Nothing. Two extremes define each other.

Without two, there is no one.

This life is precious just because it is so unique and because we have it for this short period of time. Not because your consciousness is indestructible. There is no after-life. Death is final, that's it. It is opposing state of life. They define each other.

If everyone realized and internalized this we would all live our lives in very different manner. Think about it...

[Steve Pavlina]

Consciousness can't experience its own destruction. True nothingness means no awareness to perceive it. If the game of life truly terminates, there will be no You to be aware of it. So there's still nothing to fear.

[Myrabeth]

Hi--
This has been a helpful discussion for me.
Since it's not been my experience that there's anyway to get an accurate spiritual picture of myself without community to be mirrors and spiritual friends, I host a monthly fire circle. Last night's (March 21) was an amazing, full-moon fire. Here's the post I wrote on the Virtual Tea House, a site I host, about the dialogue. It fits in with the flow of this discussion, I think!

Waiting in the Garden; Stories of hula hoops, humus and holy crappola!

Would love to get anyone's input!

Myrabeth

[anamoly]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

It sounds like you're confusing the emotional state of joy (short-term, easily accessible) with the level of consciousness of joy (long-term, takes a lot of conscious development to reach). The first one is how you feel in the moment, and you can experience it via Power of Now techniques and the like. The second one is your background level of awareness, which is an entirely different kind of beast.

I freely admit it's problematic to use the word joy to describe both. I think it makes sense to use joy to describe the emotional state, but it's probably not the best term to use to describe the level of consciousness. I'm at a bit of a loss for a better word though. Joy is the emotional residue of that particular level of consciousness, but the underlying structure of it is far more complex IMO. Perhaps a good word to describe it is truth, since it feel like the true nature of reality really opens up at that point, and life becomes much easier.

I think we are both confused because it seems like we are both talking about the same state of joy. I do feel truth, a sense of peace, wonder and curiosity about the world. It's the true nature of what I am. I am not talking about short-term happiness which depends on egoic interpretation, which is what I think you meant by "short-term" joy. No, I talk about the joy of consciousness - the joy of Being - the joy of aliveness.

I suppose it can be difficult to experience it on a constant level because it does require constant vigilance of primary awareness and a degree of presence that allows you to detach from thoughts. However, once you learn the basic principle of dis identifying from the conditioned mind and the noise subsides the deep state of joy which is prevalent becomes known with intensity. Once you access that power, it cannot leave you - which is why I make the non-confrontational argument that joy is easy to access, a joy which is inside everyone - but covered up by attachment to things, or false beliefs about reality (which I believe are ANY beliefs about reality are false - since reality just is). It's simply learning the basic principle of dis identifying from the mind. Yes, you are responsible for your mind, but no you cannot blame yourself for thinking negatively because until you are constantly present and alert you have no choice in the matter.

Perhaps you should focus some of your articles more on the simplicity of finding this feeling. Only once this feeling is found and felt than is it possible to work on the level purpose, otherwise you get lost in your work - you care about whether you fail or not - you mistake that your work is intertwined with who you are. When in reality your work is just a manifestation of consciousness. Consciousness works "through you" so to speak once you are in touch with the state of joy, peace, or enthusiasm. The "Joy of Sadness" is excellent, I love the analogy to the storm and witnessing the storm.

Originally Posted by Myrabeth

Hi--
This has been a helpful discussion for me.
Since it's not been my experience that there's anyway to get an accurate spiritual picture of myself without community to be mirrors and spiritual friends, I host a monthly fire circle. Last night's (March 21) was an amazing, full-moon fire. Here's the post I wrote on the Virtual Tea House, a site I host, about the dialogue. It fits in with the flow of this discussion, I think!

Waiting in the Garden; Stories of hula hoops, humus and holy crappola!

Would love to get anyone's input!

Myrabeth

A monthly fire circle? That all seems so out there that it's difficult to believe that someone outside of the LSD-consuming hippies would hold such interesting events.

I appreciate the link to the Jungian book, as Jungian psychology is interesting and I would love to learn more about it. I ordered it through you, so I fully expect you to give me $1000 back once I create lots of value!

[tekomino]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Consciousness can't experience its own destruction. True nothingness means no awareness to perceive it. If the game of life truly terminates, there will be no You to be aware of it. So there's still nothing to fear.

Ah, but see, that changes everything. I don't disagree with anything you just said, but belief that life, that your consciousness is indestructible is the cause for majority of pain and suffering in the world.

How much pain has been inflicted by no respect for this unique life, one opportunity that we have?

How much suffering has been caused by belief that something better awaits for you after this life?

Nothing is indestructible. Nothing exists forever.

Enlightenment is internalization that you are alive, that you got this one chance to be alive.

Realizing that yes, there is an end. Yes, I do have limited time to be alive is a cause to live life fully, be joyful just for being here and respect everything around us that got that chance too.

Thats what being presents and experiencing now is all about, I think.

Belief that your consciousness is indestructible and that nothing can harm you on that level is misguided. Every one thing has it opposite to define it. Without its extreme opposite there is no one.

[Plato]

Yes, attachment to mind and body leads to suffering. But consciousness as meant in this sense is a metaphysical concept. The Buddha of course famously rejected it in favour of an objective reality of impermanence. He argued that attachment to any permanence is a delusion because everything in reality is in a dynamic state of change. Therefore enlightenment to Buddhists is the realisation of no-self (An-atman).

Anyway, within a subjective reality one recognises that the waking consciousness that is experienced by the pyscho-physical complex that is us, is impermanent. The consciousness in which the reality exists however does not die with the death of the body.

[Myrabeth]

Originally Posted by tekomino

Belief that your consciousness is indestructible and that nothing can harm you on that level is misguided. Every one thing has it opposite to define it. Without its extreme opposite there is no one.

Well..Tekomino--hello!
Going to jump in here, on this Easter morning...
You have stated some potent truths in your recent posts here. But, at the risk of drawing energy away from the main discussion, I'd like to interject an idea.

What if...polarity was the struggle of the mind to make sense of the experiences we have. And, in the state of mind that is beyond consciousness (of which very few of us have any knowledge--mostly because we're caught in the web of the polarities) there is nothing, so there's nothing else.

My mind scrambles to make sense of that, because our world is constructed of polarity.

And so...partly in response to my monkey-mind, I host the monthly fire circles that I posted about! We sit around and eat good chocolate and drink red wine (sometimes right out of the bottle ) We laugh a lot. We talk about what our experiences are like...we don't get into too much philosophizing or theologizing...other than lived experience. Because the fire is about our heart's longings and joys. All faiths/non-faiths are welcome. The only requirement is respect for each other and the elemental spirit of the fire. The fire pit is under my ancient weeping birch tree, who has a disease called birch boring beetle...and the beetles are killing the tree one limb at a time. I treat the tree every spring (she just got her injections this week )We will cut the dead limbs off, burn them in the fire later this year and tell the tree that she is lovely, with or without any particular branches. There's no LSD to be found--the strongest chemicals are in the wine, and maybe the chocolate! But we all feel altered by the power of connection--with each other and the fire, and the tree, etc. that goes beyond our minds' grasp. And we keep coming back, to learn from each other and the fire that holds all of it!

No answers to your existential questions, but heart-answers of patience, peace, and real joy (that I'll take any day over happiness!)

So that's all I know for today!
Sweet Re-births to all of you--
Myrabeth

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by tekomino

How much pain has been inflicted by no respect for this unique life, one opportunity that we have?

How much suffering has been caused by belief that something better awaits for you after this life?

I haven't experienced such problems in my own life.

Contemplating the potentially indestructible nature of consciousness only sharpens my appreciation for this temporary physical existence. I know my body will die, but as for my consciousness... who knows? When you believe you'll probably live forever, time becomes less meaningful. When time seems infinite, it becomes ever more clear that the present moment is what really matters. "Who am I right now?" becomes a very important question.

Some religions teach that a better life occurs after death. I agree that's a disempowering belief that causes people to disrespect their physical lives. I think if there's life after death, it would be largely the same aside from the loss of physicality, assuming I take my consciousness with me.

Given a choice between living as though consciousness is vulnerable to oblivion vs. living as though consciousness is indestructible, I get better results from the latter. I live as a better person when I assume my consciousness will always exist. It makes me more keenly aware of who I am.

The concept of forever motivates me to stop creating pain for myself and to learn to love unconditionally. Why would I want to spend eternity in a state of suffering when I can choose joy instead?

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

It sounds like you're confusing the emotional state of joy (short-term, easily accessible) with the level of consciousness of joy (long-term, takes a lot of conscious development to reach). The first one is how you feel in the moment, and you can experience it via Power of Now techniques and the like. The second one is your background level of awareness, which is an entirely different kind of beast.

Do you mean that Power of Now techniques are only good to experience short term joy and that they don't really work for long term joy?

I'd be curious to know what you think of these techniques and their goal, which seems to be able to stop the thinking mind in order to get to a "next stage" of counsciousness, or some kind of enlightenment. Eckhart Tolle is getting very popular these days, and I must admit I like his teachings very much. (even though I don't find it so easy to implement )
To some extent, I find that SR is pointing towards the same direction as Power of Now. Am I missing something?

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by theknightwhosaysni-NI

Do you mean that Power of Now techniques are only good to experience short term joy and that they don't re