"Are Humans Carnivores or Herbivores?" or omnivores?

[Vantage72]

This post to discuss the post of Steve "Are Humans Carnivores or Herbivores?"
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-herbivores-2/

My question is: are humans built as herbivores or omnivores?

While Steve argues that we are built as herbivores, this professor argues that we are omnivores: Re: Are humans Vegetarians or Omnivores?

PS. I did a search to find if there where any similar topics, but could not find them. If there is, please let me know.

[Sam988]

This talk that 'humans are actually herbivores" is vegetarian people's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


This professor's article that you showed in your post explains it very well.

[Raymond Fernando]

Steve's post tended to be very one sided and only cherry picked the facts that made Steve's argument look better. My understanding is that when comparing something it is best to present both sides equally and look at the bigger picture.

The professor in the blog answers what his credentials are and offers references to the facts stated in his response, which make the professor more credible than Steve.

Finally, you ask about my credentials to answer this question. Well, I am
employed as an anatomy professor (and am therefore a specialist in human
anatomy). I teach at a college that specializes in training health care
workers (so I am familiar with issues of human health an nutrition).
Finally, I earned by Ph.D. in Physical Anthropology (which sort of makes me
an expert in how humans adapt both biologically and culturally to the
environment).

Some References relevant to this questions:

Harding, RSO & Teleki, G (1981) Omnivorous Primates. Columbia University
Press: New York.

Romer, AS & Parsons, TS (1986) The Vertebrate Body. Saunders College
Publishing: New York

Oxnard, C. (1987) Fossils, Teeth and Sex. University of Washington Press:
Seattle

I need to do more academic research before I can decide what I believe to be true.

[Dave Kaminski]

Steve,

Thanks for the great article link! Yours was a hell of a summation, but I particularly liked reading the professor's ideas on the carnivore-by-choice claim.

Thanks

[ZHereford]

Interesting articles - both of them!

I've personally never liked meat and didn't eat it long before it was the thing to do. I was actually made fun of for not eating it. I enjoy all dairy products and milk sustained me in my formative years. Everyone else in my family eats it.

My thinking is that as humans we need balance more than anything. I don't see anything wrong in enjoying meat. Didn't most of our cavemen ancestors eat it for survival. There's also the hunter/farmer distinction.

I believe that we as humans are very adaptable. To label us is too restrictive especially since so many enjoy meat. Balance is key. Both of my parents who have enjoyed eating some meat, but not too much, have lived long healthy lives with no serious medical problems. They've also eaten lots of vegetables, herbs etc. Again I think balance is key.

[sheffy4]

Yep, this was a very informative post.
Now I don't feel so bad about being "mostly" vegetarian

[agnostic]

I was vegan for some time in my youth, but I learned better. I now live exclusively on meat. I've never felt better in my life. And even the male-pattern baldness that runs in my family stopped for me completely (which it shouldn't). Veganism works better than the standard diet mostly by cutting out all the processed carbs and all the sugar. As such it can be recommended as an improvement (I think)- temporarily (that is: for about 3-5 years max). However, dropping meat is pretty much the worst choice you can make health-wise.
The inuit live without any diseases of civilization with zero plant food and only meat of which 80% of calories are fat, mostly saturated animal fat.
Same goes for the Massai. Zero cases of heart disease, cancer etc.
You should watch the movie "Fathead". It's the ultimate mindtwister for every vegetarian and should be watched only for that (Personal Growth anyone?)
Anthropologists think than man evolved to the creature that he is now on a diet consisting mostly of meat. Also, all other monkeys are omnivores. Chimpansees eat meat regularly, see Jane Goodall's research, which led to the eating habits of these creatures to be reclassified.
Read the works of Viljhalmur Steffansson, who, after returning from the Inuit, went into a metabolic ward study with a colleague of his to eat nothing but meat (cooked, not raw), for an entire year. They were in perfect health, even the gingivitis that plagued one of them disappeared during the diet.
Think about it: If meat is not healthy, how can it be that it is the only food in existence that provides you with all the vitamins and essential proteins and fats you need for perfect health. It is the only food that when eaten exclusively provides you with all you need. Beefsteak and water, that's it. Perfect health, low body fat, fast recovery from injuries, oh, and your caries not only doesn't get worse, but it goes away and holes in your teeth regrow.
Read Weston A. Price's Nutrition and Physical Degeneration on that.
You can't live on apples alone, or oranges, or any other food for that matter exclusively without developing some major deficiency diseases. Only meat. The food on which we evolved our big brains, social skills, upright posture, low body hair, speech and major tool-building skills, which all was part of a positive feedback-loop that led to one thing: more meat in the diet.
Meat is a healthy food. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. While it is understandable that one wants to save the animals, it is better to just go with organic meat than to abandon it completely. Not eating meat is well-intentioned, but unfortunately misguided.
I've been a vegan once. I've changed my mind (and improved my health).
I've come to realize that nutrition functions like religion. After we've lost faith in major religious institutions for a big part, nutrition becomes our crutch to feel pure and morally superior. Also, the state of nutritional science is horrifying. If you want to know more about how bad it is, read Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories".
The only argument that matters, in my opinion, regarding nutrition is: Is it healthy for the person eating it.

I'll leave you with a quote from Dr. Blake Donaldson:

During the millions of years that our ancestors lived by hunting, every weakling who could not maintain perfect health on fresh fat meat and water was bred out.

[James81]

I don't understand why this is such an issue.

Both sides have solid arguements. I mean, the vegan/vegetarian community is right about the mistreatment of animals. Eating mass-produced meat from you local grocery store is bad for many reasons. First of all, the moral issue is that the animals are all herded together in tiny little farms, fed steroids and other things to make them grow faster, and then killed in mass. I don't care who you are, that's ethically wrong. And remember, all that ♥♥♥♥ they are pumping into those animals end up in the meat, and it's not good for you.

On the other hand, meat has it's nutritional value. Too much meat is bad for you, but in moderation it's actually a good source of protein (one of the few sources out there actually).

So a good comprimise would be finding a small farm where they treat the animals right and feed them grains and buying your meat there (interestingly enough if you buy a whole or half a beef from one of these farms it's actually MUCH cheaper by the pound than from the store, and FAR better for you...not to mention that the meat itself actually tastes better as well...it's just a matter of amassing enough money to buy it in bulk and having room to put a deep freeze to store it).

Or you can actually go out and hunt your own meat.

Remember that protein should not exceed 12-20% of your diet, so you should limit your intake of meat accordingly.

[BeyondtheWrap]

Originally Posted by agnostic

I now live exclusively on meat. I've never felt better in my life.

It is the only food that when eaten exclusively provides you with all you need. Beefsteak and water, that's it. Perfect health, low body fat, fast recovery from injuries, oh, and your caries not only doesn't get worse, but it goes away and holes in your teeth regrow.

Really? Your diet is entirely steak?

I have some further questions, so I would appreciate if you have any resources to share on this.

How much do you have to eat in a day? Do you eat the fat or cut it off? Where do you buy it? Do you eat it raw or cooked? But don't you need fruit to prevent scurvy? Steve talks about the main benefit of veganism being "mental clarity"; since you were also a vegan at some point, you might have experienced something similar; do you still get the "mental clarity" benefits on your meat diet?

[Dreamline]

Humans are obviously omnivores or we would die from all the variety we eat.

Humans have attributes of carnivore, herbivore, fruitivore and omnivore physiology.

If we weren't meant to digest meat, we'd have less stomach acid than we do and probably multiple stomachs. Nor "tearing" type teeth.

If humans weren't meant to eat vegetables, we wouldn't have such long digestive tracts nor "grinding" type teeth.

If you want to know what YOU should be eating, your blood/DNA/ancestry does not lie: Read Eat Right 4 Your Type and get your exact diet.

Jennifer

[agnostic]

@James81: I only have about 20% of my diet consisting of protein. I agree that one doesn't need more. The rest - for me - is fat.

@ BeyondTheWrap:
Well, my diet is only meat. It comes from a variety of sources. Pork, beef, fish, any meat basically. Yes, I do eat lots of fat. Pretty much 80% of my calories come from animal fat. It eat my meat cooked (in lard usually), except for beef steaks which I like medium, so I do get my fair share of raw meat during the week. I've just ordered books on making my own sausages, so this will enhance my food list a bit more. Given how much crap there is in commercial sausages, I'd rather make my own to be sure what's in there. But I really look forward to eating lots of sausages.
I eat quite a lot of meat. About 2000-3000 calories a day of fatty meat, 2-3 meals, as I skip breakfast regularly because I'm not hungry in the morning. I eat most of that in the evening when I can wolf down up to 1 kg of fatty meat.

The idea that one needs citrus fruits or a high amount of vitamin C to prevent scurvy is true only for people who eat lots of carbs.

I've dug up "Good Calories, Bad Calories" for this, this is what I've found (page 325):

The vitamin C molecule is similar in configuration to glucose and other sugars in the body. It is shuttled from the bloodstream into the cells by the same insulin.dependent transport system used by glucose. Glucose and vitamin C compete in this cellular-uptake process, like strangers trying to flag down the same tasxicab simultaneously. Because glucose is greatly favored i the contest, the uptake o vitamin C by cells is "globally inhibited" when blood-sugar levels are elevated. In effect, glucose regulates how much vitamin C istaken up by the cells.

So your cells get glucose and your body flushes out the unused vitamin C, which increases your demand for the vitamin. So while according to the standard nutritional requirements meat is deficient in vitamin C, you still don't get scurvy on a low-carb diet, because the vitamin C you do get is enough when glucose doesn't compete with it. That's because the standard requirements are for carbivores.

Regarding the mental clarity, I do have tons of energy now, both for physical and mental tasks. I only sleep six hours per night. I have read this before, but always thought that it was a myth as I used to need at least 9 hours to function. Given that a ketogenic diet is used against Parkinson's, schizophrenia, epilepsy and Alzheimer's. One of the benefits of my type of diet is that you have rock-solid stable blood-sugar levels and thus less mood swings. I guess that one can have similar experience on a vegan diet when one doesn't juice too much and eats everything raw and sticks mostly to vegetables, which would keep the blood sugar level similarly stable, but one would lack the additional ketones for the brain, I suppose. I haven't been a raw food vegan when I was a vegan. I did have bread and potatoes back then. So I really can't compare in this regard. I did have one morning though, when beginning a vegan diet, when I felt really great, similar to now. It's hard to compare memories with current experience. But this "boost" was what got me going on the vegan path. I've always tried to replicate it, but I guess bread, potatoes and too much juice kept me from experiencing it again in my vegan times. It might have been just chance, but at least I can find a plausible explanation for it.

I also do have days when I don't eat anything till the evening, simply because I am not hungry and the thought of eating something seems repulsive. Then I just drink my water when thirsty and wait. Usually I'm hungry for a steak in the evening again - either that or I need a big breakfast.
I've also noticed that I need less and less salt for my meat as it seems too salty when I use my once usual (relatively high) doses.

Some references:

Here's Gary Taubes' lecture on the Calorie theory vs. the Carb theory of weight loss: (6/5/2009)
Why we gain weight: Adiposity 101 and the Alternative Hypothesis of Obesity

Next up is, this nice study by a 25-year long vegetarian Assistant professor of nutrition whose study showed that the Atkins diet beat every other diet they tried (Ornish, Zone, "Everything-in-moderation") both in weight loss AND in every single health marker they have tracked :shock:

YouTube - The Battle of the Diets: Is Anyone Winning (At Losing?)

Also, here's some nice videos on how we've started to eat high-carb and why it's bogus and how it makes us fat:

YouTube - Big Fat Lies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNYlIcXy ... annel_page

These are excerpts from "Fathead" by Tom Naughton, a low-carb answer to SuperSize-me, where he eats at McDonald's for 28 days, keeps his carbs under 100g per day and calories below 2000 and ends up losing (as far as I remember) 12 pounds. It's a good movie to watch to get started. He also has a blog.

There are also forums of carnivores only. You can try zeroinginonhealth or "the magic bus". The magic bus has two guys named Jeff and Dean, who have tested the calorie theory vs. Taubes' theory by eating 4000 calories per day of 80% animal fat and ended up losing weight. They called it "Dean's ZCarnivore MAM experiment", MAM standing for Metabolic Advantage Movement, an insider joke (to make fun of Anthony Colpo, who claimed that there is no metabolic advantage to low-carb diets and that you need to watch your calorie intake above all). I'm not sure if I'm allowed to link to other forums, but I guess if you want to find them, you can.

There is a guy who has been eating only rare beefsteak and water since his 20s who is now 71 and in fine health. He calls himself "the bear". You can read his essay on diet and exercise here

You can read Gary Taubes' "Good Calories, Bad Calories". It's very technical and long, but it's a treatment of the science of nutrition of the last 150 years and not a light diet book.

Then there's Weston A. Price's book "Nutrition and Physical Generation" here

and of course Fat of the Land by Steffansson, the guy who lived with the Inuit, which I have only skimmed myself so far.

That should be enough to get you started.
Enjoy!

[Said1]

Apparently, God intended for humans to be vegans. But like everything biblical, it's always open to interpretation.

[James81]

Have you ever noticed how, when it comes to nutrition, everybody seems to act like an expert? lol

Especially since the rise of the internet. I mean, look two posts above. Nothing but a bunch of internet sources providing what SOUNDS like logical advice.

It's like, when it comes to nutrition, people latch onto a couple pieces of science, and use it to try and build an entire arguement out of it.

Perhaps we could just admit that we don't have a clue what the hell we're talking about when it comes to nutrition. And maybe we could stop trying to push out own diets onto other people.

Do what works for you. With all the conflicting information out there, we are on our own. So, through trial and error (and a few very basic fundamentals of nutition), you find what works for you.

Some foundational information for good health would include:

1. Eating plenty of fruits and vegetables. I'm pretty sure it would be hard to debunk the nutritional value of fruits and vegetables.

2. Drink plenty of water (hey, that's basic, common sense).

3. Exercise 5-7 days a week.

Those are the foundational points. From there, you need to decide what works best for you.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by James81

On the other hand, meat has it's nutritional value. Too much meat is bad for you, but in moderation it's actually a good source of protein (one of the few sources out there actually).

I'd be lead to believe that at least most foods have protein in them if not all. 72g of peanuts = 120g of beef for protein.

[agnostic]

@James81: Sorry, but one of the references is a book scourging through 150 years of nutritional science in a very dry manner with a bibliography that makes your head explode. The next one is a presentation of a scientific paper.
I fully agree that the rest is purely anecdotal internet stuff. But it is a good intro and - not knowing who I am talking to, I thought it was a good mixture. I can link to scientific papers and journal articles if you want to.
I've read both bunches of literature, both the vegan/vegetarian parts and the carnivore part and the carnivores make more sense. No mention of spirituality and cleansing or detoxification there. Just biochemistry and a bit of anthropology.

It's true. Everyone acts like an expert on the web. But the same is true offline. That's why one should always consider that one is wrong about everything and try to find holes in one's pet theories. That's why I am currently reading mostly vegan/vegetarian books to find something that's wrong with my meat-diet. I'm the first to change my mind when faced with conflicting evidence. Anecdotal stuff on the internet is a good start, but it's far from sufficient. In the end, you have to make up your own mind. I began all of this as a full-fledged vegan, but stuff like this makes you doubt that primates don't eat animal products:

YouTube - Chimpanzees team up to attack a monkey in the wild - BBC wildlife

It all began from there. That said, I could challenge you on the fruits and veggies. All the evidence for fruits and veggies I've seen so far is either anecdotal or epidemiological.

Fruits and vegetables cause more DNA damage than other food:

Associations of antioxidant nutrients and oxidativ...[Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2007] - PubMed Result

From the abstract:
"African-Americans had ... lower self-reported intake of most antioxidants (than whites). Levels of oxidative DNA damage, measured using the alkaline comet assay, were lower in African-Americans than Whites"

and:
Green tea extract only affects markers of oxidativ...[Br J Nutr. 2002] - PubMed Result

"The overall effect of the 10-week period without dietary fruits and vegetables was a decrease in oxidative damage to DNA, blood proteins, and plasma lipids, concomitantly with marked changes in antioxidative defence."

The reason for this is that plants, like all living things, don't want to be eaten. That's why there are antinutrients and toxins in plants. We bred most of that out of most of the plants we eat or we cook them to destroy the toxins.

I also believe that this much exercise causes oxidative damage. A bit of googling presented me this:

Science Links Japan | Exercise, Oxidative Stress and Health Benefit.

But I must admit that I haven't researched it, yet, so I can't say anything about it.

One of the main benefits of the internet is that if you are curious it forces you into a postmodern state of mind. You can expose yourself to tons of different points of view. It helps to take none of these too seriously, including your own. The great thing is that you can actively search for evidence that what you are believing or doing is wrong and look for the best evidence you can find. In terms of nutrition and exercise, these would be scientific journals. And even there one has to beware which kind of study one is reading, is it epidemiological, what are the flaws in the research, funding by pharmaceuticals etc. There are no boundaries for skepticism. Of course, books, articles and blogs help for orientation.

I agree with you completely that we currently have very little clue as to what makes a healthy diet and that in the end, you have to experiment and make up your own mind. But to do that you have to constantly challenge everything you think you know to be true. The state of science in this area does leave a lot to be desired, but you have to take what you can get.

[Michelle]

I'm actually wondering if this has more to do with genetics and anscestry tha people are aware. Some people do actually thrive while eating meat, others thrive on raw vegan diets. Perhaps the right answer lies in one's origins and current habitat. I mean we are all human, yes, but there are differences like in hair colour, thickness or quantity, in blood types, etc. And in hotter climates the body (mine, at least) asks for different sorts of foods than in colder climates.

[James81]

Originally Posted by agnostic

I agree with you completely that we currently have very little clue as to what makes a healthy diet and that in the end, you have to experiment and make up your own mind. But to do that you have to constantly challenge everything you think you know to be true. The state of science in this area does leave a lot to be desired, but you have to take what you can get.

And here's where conflicting viewpoints come into play...

I've been reducing the amount of meat I've been eating lately, and really limiting red meat in my diet. Since I've done that, I've felt fantastic. Over the weekend my family had a cookout and I had some hamburgers and a hot dog, and I felt like crap after eating it.

I figure it has more to do with the type of meat (I mean, a hot dog is bad for you all around simply because it's processed) than anything else, but it's still an interesting thing to think about.

Since I've went to mostly fruits and vegetables, I've never felt so good and full of energy.

So, like I said, I think it's a matter of finding what works.

And I'm not even a vegan or vegetarian. I have no "moral" stake in the game (other than perhaps seeing the point that mass producing meat and the way they go about it is probably a tad unethical).

Thus far, I'm fairly convinced that a diet of 75% fruits, vegetables, and nuts is probably the healthiest diet out there (at least in my own experience).

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by Dreamline

Humans are obviously omnivores or we would die from all the variety we eat.

Humans have attributes of carnivore, herbivore, fruitivore and omnivore physiology.

If we weren't meant to digest meat, we'd have less stomach acid than we do and probably multiple stomachs. Nor "tearing" type teeth.

If humans weren't meant to eat vegetables, we wouldn't have such long digestive tracts nor "grinding" type teeth.

If you want to know what YOU should be eating, your blood/DNA/ancestry does not lie: Read Eat Right 4 Your Type and get your exact diet.

Jennifer

I see you are back under a different name and still pushing that bunk. Good to see some things never change.

[borisg]

If you like to eat meat eat it and shut up about.

If you don't. Then don't.

Its an individual thing. You have your reason for eating meat..

I have my reason for not eating meat. I don't eat solely for the same reason that I don't eat human flesh.

That's it.

[KazeCraven]

The label of 'herbivore' and 'omnivore' is misleading, because it implies that there is a correct diet and an incorrect diet.

And if we are 'omnivores' and I can live for 40 more years eating only meat or only vegetables, I think the point is pretty moot. I'd say it's irrelevant, but the opening question asks whether we are carnivores or omnivores or herbivores. Why are we arguing this?

[Dreamline]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

I see you are back under a different name and still pushing that bunk. Good to see some things never change.

The bunk works, saves lives and I see you are under a different name too. Your point?

Jennifer

[Joeschmoe]

I'm not. Same name as always.

As far as the bunk goes, i think it's incombent upon those making extraorinary claims to provide the evidence for those claims. I would love to see any scientific evidence backing up the blood type diet or documenting the results. When you go around positively proclaiming that it is the only right way to go you need to back that claim up.

[Dreamline]

Buy the book. The studies are available, extensive and over four decades in the making.

You can get it practically free on Amazon used.

Jennifer

[WilliWibald]

We are most definitely carnivores... that's why we get cancer from eating meat.
It's meant that way.

[Dreamline]

Carnivores eat raw meat. Humans eat cooked meat. We are not true carnivores. Carnivores have a large intestine that is, on average, 6ft in length. Ours is 22. That is somewhere between a vegetable-nutrient absorbing length of bowel and a meat eater length of bowel.

Carnivores instinctively prey upon and attack their prey and then rend it to death. We can't stand meat unless it's in a tidy package, clean and grilled to perfection. We are not true carnivores.

Carnivores have teeth meant to rip apart raw flesh. We can rip apart a pre-cooked piece of meat if it's tender enough.

But that doesn't mean some of us aren't evolved to eat meat. That meat-based diet is ideal for some of us. But not all of us.

Humans, as we are now, have mutated three times. From the basic blood group O, into A, B and AB. AB being the most recent. Despite interbreeding, O still dominates. O is the survival-of-the-fittest type. The caveman. Thrives in feast or famine. Handles high protein easily.

Each of those sero-groups originated from specific climatic and nomadic habits which means their changes in latitude and subsequent food options and climatic challenges literally changed them. Long story short, there are ideal diets for each bloodgroup based on ancestry. It's proveable by the reactions that ALL people with O blood have to a specific food item. ALL people with B react to chicken poorly. ALL people except O react to tomatoes poorly. ALL people with A do better as vegetarians. ALL people with O do better as lower carb, moderate protein. (there is something called secretor status that has an effect on specific foods choices within a blood group and it can be easily tested for to have the most customized diet.)

So why do years of trial and error with diet and health? Just trust your blood.

Jennifer

[Andrew Brunelle]

No offense to anyone here, but the whole vegetarian/vegan diets are not the most healthy and we are definitely omnivores. Sure, the meat today is of poor quality and produced in atrocious conditions, but before the time of factory farming, meat was a big part of our diets and has been for millions of years. And it tastes delicious. If we weren't meant to eat meat, then why do we crave it? Why does it have an essential vitamin that does not exist anywhere else (B12)? And what about plants? They are living things as well. Just because they may not feel pain does not mean that you are not killing them.

We are omnivores and that's the end of the story. I look at vegetarians and vegans and I see sickly looking people. Even if they are SAD vegans, they look worse than SAD omnivores. In a perfect world, we would hunt for our meat and it would be much healthier than the meat we eat today. This is why the vegan and vegetarian shun meat, because factory farming has made meat less healthy than in the past. Or they feel compassion for animals, but most people in this world don't even talk to their neighbors, so I do doubt that in most people.

Death isn't a horrible thing anyway. IT's part of the cycle of life. An animal dies so we can eat. When we die, if we weren't embalmed and made toxic, the worms and other insects would eat us. There's nothing evil about eating animals. It's natural.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Or they feel compassion for animals, but most people in this world don't even talk to their neighbors, so I do doubt that in most people.

This is what has always gotten me. That people can be so focused on "saving" the animals, yet totally disresepct their fellow person.

I've also noticed a trend that the vegan crowd also tends to be pro-choice (not always, but that's the trend I see most).

That worldview absolutely baffles me. It's wrong and unethical to kill animals, but when it comes to babies? No biggie.

(That's all I'll say about that, as I don't want to go off into some kind of abortion debate)

[Michelle]

Originally Posted by James81

This is what has always gotten me. That people can be so focused on "saving" the animals, yet totally disresepct their fellow person.

I've also noticed a trend that the vegan crowd also tends to be pro-choice (not always, but that's the trend I see most).

That worldview absolutely baffles me. It's wrong and unethical to kill animals, but when it comes to babies? No biggie.

(That's all I'll say about that, as I don't want to go off into some kind of abortion debate)

Animals are bundles of pure positive energy, love and joy. They radiate complete oneness with all that is, and living fully in the NOW. For some people, an animal is their only connection the divine. People, on the other hand, have ego personalities which are, by nature, unloving. It is much more of a challenge for one person with ego to relate to another person with ego than with a being of pure positive energy.

[KazeCraven]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

No offense to anyone here, but the whole vegetarian/vegan diets are not the most healthy and we are definitely omnivores. Sure, the meat today is of poor quality and produced in atrocious conditions, but before the time of factory farming, meat was a big part of our diets and has been for millions of years. And it tastes delicious. If we weren't meant to eat meat, then why do we crave it? Why does it have an essential vitamin that does not exist anywhere else (B12)? And what about plants? They are living things as well. Just because they may not feel pain does not mean that you are not killing them.

We are omnivores and that's the end of the story. I look at vegetarians and vegans and I see sickly looking people. Even if they are SAD vegans, they look worse than SAD omnivores. In a perfect world, we would hunt for our meat and it would be much healthier than the meat we eat today. This is why the vegan and vegetarian shun meat, because factory farming has made meat less healthy than in the past. Or they feel compassion for animals, but most people in this world don't even talk to their neighbors, so I do doubt that in most people.

Death isn't a horrible thing anyway. IT's part of the cycle of life. An animal dies so we can eat. When we die, if we weren't embalmed and made toxic, the worms and other insects would eat us. There's nothing evil about eating animals. It's natural.

I completely agree (aside from a vegan diet being unhealthful and considering vegans as sickly; don't know what masochistic people you've been around), but until people stop making animals suffer so that we can eat toxic meat, I'm not touching any of it. Not to mention it destroys our environment in the process! (Factory farmed, not wild/properly raised)

Notice I said suffer not die. I don't mind eating meat as it was done in the old days, with a few seconds of painful slaughter for the animal. But most people use the argument as an excuse to eat factory farmed meats. You aren't doing yourself any favors, and a lifetime of suffering is cruel and unusual punishment.



Dreamline/Jennifer: I looked at Eat Right for Your Type, and was immediately skeptical when the typing tried to tell me what my personality was, and was completely wrong. I'm 'O', strongly introverted, and proud of it. That aside, I'll look into it if my vegan diet stops working for me.

[StacyT]

I think Michael Pollan put it best when he said, "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants."

I highly recommend his book "Omnivore's Dilemma"!