Raw Food Diet - Day 18 (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Raw Food Diet - Day 18

[michellew]

wow my first ever post.
i'm getting so many ideas from this raw food diet to incorporate into my own diet.
now i bought okra yesterday, but was suprised by the hairy outer which, if you run your fingers up the fruit, is actually kind of sharp, like there are hidden prickles in the skin. is this ok? i was too scared to munch into it, in case it was like artichoke where you couldn't eat certain parts. do i need to do something to prepare it before eating it (raw)??

steve - love your work. thanks

[Vantage72]

30% (fatintake) is well into the range of serious long-term health problems. And 40% is basically slow suicide (fast suicide if you die from a heart attack or stroke).

In my opinion that statement is inaccurate. As far as I know, it makes a big difference what kind of fats and from what sources.

For example the Mediterenean diet:

It is based on what from the point of view of mainstream nutrition is considered a paradox: that although the people living in Mediterranean countries tend to consume relatively high amounts of fat, they have far lower rates of cardiovascular disease than in countries like the United States, where similar levels of fat consumption are found.

One of the main explanations is thought to be the large amount of olive oil used in the Mediterranean diet. Unlike the high amount of animal fats typical to the American diet, olive oil lowers cholesterol levels in the blood.[2] It is also known to lower blood sugar levels and blood pressure.[2] Research indicates olive oil prevents peptic ulcers and is effective in treatment of peptic ulcer disease,[3] and may be a factor in preventing cancer.[4] In addition, the consumption of red wine is considered a possible factor, as it contains flavonoids with powerful antioxidant properties.[5]

Mediterranean diet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Jay]

Hi Steve,

as the above post say, I think too that 30 % of fat intake is quite okay.
I am studying "Oecotrophologie" in Germany and my opinion is based on the Standards of the "DGE" (let's say "German Associatioin of Nutrition"). I second that the composition of the fat is important.

I wrote a few articles about sport and nutrition on my blog, you can see that sportsmen who should go for a maximum of carbs, still should eat 20% fat:
Ernährung bei Kraft- und Ausdauersportarten | fitfuttern

There are some numbers in it, based on a german science book (Citation is in it.

I just want to point out, that there are other organisations which are claiming the 30% and have nothing to do with US-Business.

Moreover I think that the DGE is not biased recommending businessfriendly standards. In Germany nutrition-related diseases are costing so much money that it is a burden for the whole health-system.

[Megan]

I'm a little late suggesting this, I know, but do you have a blood sugar testing device, Steve?

I think it would be interesting, and important, to see how your blood sugar is responding to all this fruit.

[Megan]

Steve wrote: My skin is still a little itchy at times, but it’s not as bad as yesterday. The dryness of my hands, especially my knuckles, looks like it has improved a little too.

You've probably read what Chet Day says about the dangers of raw, vegan eating. (Not to be prejudiced against what you're doing--I'm mostly vegan and eat a lot of raw myself.)

When Hallelujah Becomes "What Happened?" -- Crashing on the Vegan Diet

Westbrook writes of their survey,

Since the early days of our ministry, we've had our share of emails and phone calls reporting hair loss, muscle loss, slowing metabolism, dry skin and a host of other problems. In those days we just recommended Udo's Oil or vitamin B-12 and sent them on their way with admonitions to be more faithful to the diet, eat more raw food, bigger salads, etc.

But, as our own health problems became overwhelming, we began to sit up and take notice. Being a scientist at heart (an electrical engineer for 30+ years), I wanted to get a handle on the scope of the problem. So, we created a survey.

So far, we have identified the most common fifty-four health problems people have developed on the Genesis 1:29 Diet, and have incorporated these symptoms into the survey. The survey is an invaluable tool because it lays out all these long-term symptoms on two pages and enables people to really understand how much health they've lost. We've been keeping track of data from the surveys, and continue to update the database as new surveys come in.

We have been absolutely shocked at the survey results. Here are just a few examples:

• 55% reported loss of muscle and muscle tone on the diet.
• 55% also report difficulty staying warm, a thyroid problem.
• 59% are plagued with food cravings.
• A whopping 67% report scattered thinking.
• 46% feel they are looking older than they should.
• 54% feel run down, chronically tired.
• 59% don't feel like exercising or working on the diet.
• As you can see, these numbers are too significant to be ignored.

The results of the survey are persuasive, and the case against the Gen 1:29 Diet should only get stronger as other people take the survey and honestly share their results. Other symptoms not mentioned in the above short list but discussed within Greg’s book include losing one’s teeth, headaches, and depression.

To take this survey and perhaps get a wake up call about your own state of health on the Gen 1:29 Diet, you can download and/or print off copies by clicking right here:

How's Your Diet Doin' You?
Long-term symptoms of Vegan, All-Raw, Genesis 1:29, and Vegetarian Diets
http://http://chetday.com/gendietsurvey.pdf

http://http://chetday.com/hallelujah...enedreview.htm

I'll try to find the really grim article I read about the fruitarian diet causing tooth loss, etc. Scared me out of ever trying it, though I'm really attracted to such things, in general.

[Jacko Green]

In my opinion that statement is inaccurate. As far as I know, it makes a big difference what kind of fats and from what sources.

That's correct. Fat is a problem when the source of fat is an animal that has been fed grains (especially corn). The omega 6 to omega 3 ratio becomes skewed in favor of omega 6 fats and fats with excess omega 6 fats have been shown to cause heart disease, cancer, type II diabetes. However, a diet high in omega 3 fats has been shown to reverse all those diseases. Compare wild salmon to farmed salmon that has been fed corn. Fat from the wild salmon has been proven to improve your health, fat from the farmed salmon has been proven to damage your health.

A healthy, fit human will get most of their ATP from fat metabolism.

There's literally tons of studies to support these statements. Just hit google and put aside the afternoon to read and learn.

[Megan]

Steve wrote: If you want to learn more about this topic, there’s a detailed chapter on fat in The 80/10/10 Diet, which I think is a good place to start. The numbers in the title refer to getting at least 80% of your calories from carbs and no more than 10% each from fat and protein. You can actually aim for those nutrient targets even without eating an all-raw diet.

Amazon Customer Review:

The 80/10/10 Diet
--by Dr. Douglas N. Graham

Fruitarian? Just Fruit? Really? JUST FRUIT??

I'm vegan. So based on the few 5 star reviews I read, and the synopsis of the book in the Amazon post, I expected a raw diet sort of book.

But the diet is essentially ONLY fruit with a little lettuce thrown in.

The author makes the claim that humans are meant to eat fruit and only fruit alone based on a number of what I consider to be somewhat spurious and superficial arguments and "facts" for his premise. If you want to eat fruit and only fruit then this is the book for you. Otherwise I'd recommend about a thousand other excellent cook/health books as being much better and more useful.

Amazon.com: The 80/10/10 Diet: Books: Dr. Douglas N. Graham

I haven't read the book, so I don't know if the "ONLY fruit" claim above is accurate, but I would be very cautious about going all fruit, or mostly fruit. This isn't the article I was looking for, but....

Fruitarians, Fruit Based Diets and Dental Disintegration

Many raw-food enthusiasts have experienced dental problems from fruitarian or fruit-based diets. I've talked to people on fruit-based diets who had gums recede, teeth loosen and fall out, had teeth crack, had pieces of teeth break off, etc.

They generally felt fine, and dental disintegration came as a surprise.

One man, who had eaten nothing but raw fruit for six months, told me he had "felt like he was flying". Then he started losing teeth. He gave up raw foods.

This is not a new problem. Decades ago, Arnold Ehret promoted a fruit-based diet. Some people who followed him lost teeth.

inhs.net/drbass Raw food e-groups have posts by people saying I thought this diet was supposed to help me, how come my teeth are falling out?

Some raw food advocates teach that fruit is the perfect food. They often ignore the tooth loss and other dental problems of their followers. Some claim that the suddenly toothless people were all having dental disorders before going raw, even though it's not true.

RawVeg.info · Fruitarian

Also, seems like Pritikin should have lived longer, you know?

[Liquid Soap]

Hi Steve, regarding dry and cracking skin after more frequent hand washing, make sure you aren't using "liquid soap", don't know what you call it in the USA, but anything that you pump from a dispenser.

It isn't soap in the chemical sense and I know from experience it's a lot more harsh. It doesn't normally matter but if you suddenly have to start washing your hands more frequently, these skin problems appear. Switch to a bar of soap, real chemical soap. It's a lot more gentle.

I developed bleeding cracked skin over the knuckles and it gets very sore, with the skin tearing open repeatedly. Switching to soap made it disappear quickly.

[Joeschmoe]

Wow, steve you opened a flood gate. I think that you just can't argue with people who think that they are right even though they have never tried it for themselves. I prefer to listen to people who've been low fat raw vegan for many years and see what they think about tooth loss, and energy levels. But it''s interesting to see how enraged and closed minded people get when you question some of their base beliefs.

[Megan]

Enraged and closed-minded? Question my basic beliefs? Are you serious?

As I said, I'm mostly vegan (& eat a lot of raw food), and have been vegetarian most all my life. I'd say I'm pretty open-minded to question what I've been doing for most of my life.

Maybe it has something to do with my low energy and broken teeth...but I'm still not open-minded enough to start eating meat again.

I'd probably try the 80/10/10 diet, if I hadn't read about the dental problems associated with high-fruit diets, and if I didn't already have dental problems, and if I weren't concerned about high blood insulin levels possibly resulting from high carb diets. (That's why I hope Steve starts monitoring his blood sugar.)

I have no idea where you got the idea that I was "enraged."

I don't see Steve as some sort of guru who can't be questioned, and I don't think he sees himself that way at all. He learns from other people all the time. That's what intelligent people do.

I'll bet he comes back with thoughtful answers to the questions I've posed.

[rawtemptation]

Hi Steve!
Many rawfoodists don't appreciate greens that much. A good way to like them is to incorporate your greens (kale, romaine, spinach, etc.) in the smoothies. No more big saladds then!
Very good! (Try to add banana in the smoothies and it will be a delight!)

Karine

[Megan]

That's what I do--fill half the blender with raw greens, add 6 oz. of pineapple juice, a banana, some acerola cherry powder--yum!

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by Megan

Enraged and closed-minded? Question my basic beliefs? Are you serious?

As I said, I'm mostly vegan (& eat a lot of raw food), and have been vegetarian most all my life. I'd say I'm pretty open-minded to question what I've been doing for most of my life.

Maybe it has something to do with my low energy and broken teeth...but I'm still not open-minded enough to start eating meat again.

I'd probably try the 80/10/10 diet, if I hadn't read about the dental problems associated with high-fruit diets, and if I didn't already have dental problems, and if I weren't concerned about high blood insulin levels possibly resulting from high carb diets. (That's why I hope Steve starts monitoring his blood sugar.)

I have no idea where you got the idea that I was "enraged."

I don't see Steve as some sort of guru who can't be questioned, and I don't think he sees himself that way at all. He learns from other people all the time. That's what intelligent people do.

I'll bet he comes back with thoughtful answers to the questions I've posed.

You are right I overreacted, but i wasn't really talking about you. I was really taking about the flurry of steve is wrong, you need more protien, fructose is bad for you responses he got earlier in the thread. The same stuff we've been hearing for 20 days. As far as tooth problems, I haven't seen it as an issue on Dr Grahams forums, and I've only seen one report of someone getting porblems and he was eating mass amounts of dried fruit.

[Megan]

Well, I've been busy & haven't been keeping up on the blogs, much less on the forums discussing this 30-day trial.

I see that others, not surprisingly, have raised the blood sugar issues, and that Steve answered them:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/s...-too-high.html

Still haven't seen any "enraged" posts, but I'm glad you didn't think I was enraged.

But, in the name of science, and 30-day trials, and Megan's curiosity , I hope Steve starts monitoring and sharing his blood glucose levels.

[Vantage72]

Yes I also noticed there are many threads were the same topics come back. Maybe a result of how it is setup.

[Megan]

It's just such a huge forum, that no one can keep up with it, I would think!

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Megan

I'm a little late suggesting this, I know, but do you have a blood sugar testing device, Steve?

I think it would be interesting, and important, to see how your blood sugar is responding to all this fruit.

It hasn't had any adverse effect on my blood sugar as far as I can measure. The numbers have stayed in a very narrow and consistent range. I haven't seen a single spike. I think my highest reading so far was 91, which is still on the medium-low side. No matter how much fruit I eat, it just doesn't spike my blood sugar in any measurable way.

[Megan]

Thanks, Steve--I had just come back to post this quote of yours from the other thread:

Testing I've done with a blood sugar monitoring device hasn't shown any spikes or plunges from eating lots of fruit whatsoever -- not even once. In fact, my blood sugar has been remarkably stable, holding to a fairly narrow range. The only thing that seems to cause it to change much is vigorous weight training, where it can dip low if I train before eating, but then it rebounds shortly thereafter.

Sorry I haven't kept up with your huge forum!

Just had my blood glucose tested free at the mall yesterday--89--and I didn't eat 8 bananas , but I guess it's OK to, huh?

Just want to hold on to my teeth though.

[Savage]

One of the big challenges with seeking truth via external sources is that you tend to find evidence of whatever you're looking for.

For example, on the dental problem issue, I have read stories about dental problems caused by a largely fruitarian diet, but I've also read reasonable explanations of why this happens. Many raw foodists eat a lot of dried fruits and dehydrated foods which stick to the teeth and feed the bacteria which causes tooth decay. These aren't technically "whole foods" anymore because the water has been removed. It's almost like eating candy, and some raw foodists consume a great deal of such foods. That's one of the reasons I'm avoiding dried fruits and dehydrated foods on this diet. I knew about this potential problem before I started my trial and decided to play it safe. Personally I have not read about tooth problems from people who shun dried fruits and dehydrated foods -- I'm not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't seen any yet.

Then there's the other side, where people report dental improvements while on the raw food diet (not always fruitarian though). In the book Raw Family, the author reports that one of her kids saw a major improvement in his teeth after going raw, including having his fillings pop out.

Another problem is that when people encounter health problems on a raw diet (or even a vegan diet), they will often jump to the conclusion that it's caused by the diet, an assumption they don't always make when heath problems occur during more common diets.

Ultimately, truth is a matter of prediction. There are plenty of reasonable predictions for what will happen on a high-fat SAD diet. The predictions for the particular diet I'm on seem to be all over the place though, so I need some direct experience to fill in the gaps as much as possible.

[Vantage72]

Steve, as mentioned before, your claims about fat intakes on day 18 of your website are not in line with the majority of research that I am familiar with.

For example: "30% is well into the range of serious long-term health problems. "

Can you explain that?

If you would be refering to saturated fats it would be correct, in reference to polyunsaturated fats it's incorrect.

Detailed research -much of it done at Harvard - shows that the total amount of fat in the diet, whether high or low, isn't really linked with disease. What really matters is the type of fat in the diet.

Fats & Cholesterol: Nutrition Source, Harvard School of Public Health

[KevinTrepanier]

A mandoline could help you add diversity to your salads. Slice carrots and radishes in small sticks or long thin slices and serve with lemon juice and/or other greens.

Tomatos and fresh basilic make a great salad too. Fresh herbs are a must.

You should also start making your own sprouts. It's easy to do and does not take much time when you include them in your routine. They add so much taste, freshness and crunchy to everything! Sprouted Broccolis and mung beans are my favorites so far.

[Megan]

It seems the jury isn't in on dental health and fruitarian diets. It makes sense that dried fruits might be the chief culprits, but seems like I've read other suspects also.

Regarding "finding the evidence you're looking for," I wouldn't want to find "the evidence" in my child who was permanently neurologically damaged from my being a vegan while pregnant and nursing.

Don't get me wrong, I was total vegan for many years, and am now mostly vegan, but I think it's wise to listen to those who are warning us about possible issues that they've had direct experience with (she said wanly through her broken teeth).

Permanently neurologically damaged children are a tragedy.

From my experience, diet can be a substitute for religion, or a pseudoreligion, and it's wrong to sacrifice children on that altar--but that's another topic.

I just wouldn't push Subjective Reality that far. Too risky.

[Billy Freezer]

Finish off your meals with water to swish that sugar away!
I carry a water bottle everywhere I go and am always taking a drink anyway. I've come to the very obvious realisation that fruits like oranges, high in sugar and very acidic, although very bad for your teeth, wash away very easily. Other foods don't. Chicken for instance, gets stuck very easily between teeth and so dental flossing after every meal with chicken is a must for me. But I don't see why drinking water after fruit won't solve the teeth problems.

[Kita]

Originally Posted by Megan

We have been absolutely shocked at the survey results. Here are just a few examples:

* 55% reported loss of muscle and muscle tone on the diet.
* 55% also report difficulty staying warm, a thyroid problem.
* 59% are plagued with food cravings.
* A whopping 67% report scattered thinking.
* 46% feel they are looking older than they should.
* 54% feel run down, chronically tired.
* 59% don't feel like exercising or working on the diet.
* As you can see, these numbers are too significant to be ignored.

The results of the survey are persuasive, and the case against the Gen 1:29 Diet should only get stronger as other people take the survey and honestly share their results.

I wouldn't call the results of this survey persuasive at all, most of these sound like fairly unscientific questions. Imagine someone coming to you with a survey and asking "do you ever crave unhealthy food?". Is there anyone anywhere who can honestly say no to that? The same applies to "do you ever feel your thoughts are unfocused?" or "how often do you feel like exercising or working?" Feeling run down, tired, old? These are symptoms of modern life, not enough sleep, too much work. I would actually call these figures unusually low.

The muscle tone and coldness problems, however, perhaps have some merit. I definitely feel colder this month than I normally do. On the other hand, I'm eating a lot of cold foods and smoothies. If muscle loss is common, it's likely a result of inadequate calories or a lack of vegetables/sprouts. I won't argue that it's difficult to get large amounts of calories on this diet, but it's not impossible.

[Megan]

Kita, I understand what you're saying, and it's true, some of those things could just be symptoms of modern unhealthy living.

But in a person who is trying to live healthfully to the extent of eating raw, which takes a lot of motivation, they might indicate things are not going well.

But I agree, it's not really a scientific sample or survey.

But those of us who have been vegan, or around vegans, for a long time know that pinched, pale, wan look in others that telegraphs an inadequate diet in someone who is zealous for health.

And there are plenty of anecdotes of people not doing well on vegan fare. I personally think it's not worth the risk if a woman is pregnant or nursing, even though I myself did it many years ago.

Until recently, I never considered that my broken teeth might possibly be connected with my mostly vegan diet. (Why that never occurred to me is an interesting question.) Now I am taking that possibility seriously.

I agree with Steve that gaining knowledge externally has its limitations, but some lessons are just too expensive to learn on your own. Some wheels should never be reinvented.

Here's a forum discussion on raw eating and dental issues:

Six cavities while on raw - Raw Food Talk

Here's a discussion of the various raw foods 'camps,' including Graham (who doesn't advocate smoothies [or nuts, the heart-health food], it seems):

Raw Sacramento News June 2006

I'm just trying to work this through for myself--pretty confusing, really.

Off-topic too--sorry!

[Dive Bomb]

The whole argument of taking control of the food is interesting. I would love to do a 30 day trial of that but I don't know if I can internalize such a belief anytime soon. Sure I can say I could, but it will be tough to happen.

[fjlee]

Wow, the 80-10-10 diet? That's new to me. I've always advocated the 70-20-10 (C-F-P) made famous by the "Eat to Win" diet from the 80's.

Even this ratio is extremely hard to maintain when you have one meal at a restaurant, fast food or not. I agree, the American diet is do high in fat that it would be nearly impossible to maintain the 70-20-10 unless you eat at home (let alone the 80-10-10 diet).

You should hear some of our stories from road trips... poached chicken without the skin, salads with dressing on the side, 12 hard boiled eggs and pop the yolks out from 11 of them, etc.

Jimson
Track and Field Coach
Speed endurance . com. Success in Track & Field and Life.
Raise Your Child . org | Advice on raising children for parents.

[escapee]

I think it's a little misleading to say that "excessive fat" contributes to cancer, heart disease and diabetes. We know that excess of any nutrient is bad for health, but we also know that moderate amount of the bad one is extremely bad for health. When i say the bad one, I 'm referring to trans fats and lipid hydroperoxide ( the evil of all fats ) , Refined carbs, burned protein, toxic chemicals in processed food/drink/air and etc. If you recall what our ancestor used to be eating and the rate of chronic disease at that time, you know that there is huge difference in quality of carbs, fats, protein, vitamin and trace minerals between now and 80 years ago .

Steve, If you can continue continue the high fruit raw diet ( 80/10/10 ~ close to being a fruitarian) for a year without ruining your organ and brain ( made of fats like omega 3 & 6). My hat off to you.

[CeciL]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

But it''s interesting to see how enraged and closed minded people get when you question some of their base beliefs.

That door swings both ways...

Just making that statement contradicts it because you are taking a bias role.
Your beliefs were questioned and you were enraged enough to post about it. Yes, very interesting.