Raw Food Diet - Day 13 (Blog)

[Savage]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Raw Food Diet - Day 13

[John P]

This is a difficult 30-day trial, probably the hardest one I’ve ever done.

Wow. Even harder than the polyphasic sleep?

[Mad Scientist]

Long time reader/lurker, first time poster. I just wanted to offer my unsolicited encouragement. I read these posts every day, even though I will almost certainly never experiment with such a diet. Regardless, they are very interesting reads, and I commend you for all the time and energy you put into the whole process.

Thanks again.

[orangeyouglad]

Some of what Steve has described reminds me of feelings I experienced when I was somewhat eating disordered. Mood swings (especially the euphoria but also the lows), really savoring the flavors of even mild veggies like cucumber, low body temp, low libido, grumpiness...little things that you've mentioned, I don't know. I'm not saying there's necessarily a connection - I'm probably just projecting my own memories onto your experiences - but it's something I keep thinking about as I read the raw food entries.

Eating all of that food sounds exhausting, especially all of the chewing. I feel for you! My jaw is cracking in sympathy.

Steve, did you get a blood test before you started all of this? (I looked but didn't see any mention of one in earlier entries.) I would be curious to see the results of a blood test at the end of your trial, just to see whether anything changes (for better or worse).

[ami]

This is difficult indeed!
Hang on there Steve, almost half of the trial is behind you.
Your will power is very impressive, I've been reading you on and off since you started the blog.
When you became polyphasic I was so excited I switched to being a vegetarian and since I always believed cow's milk is not healthy for me, I quickly upgraded to Vegan. Quickly == 1 week.
I'm vegan ever since and feel great about it.
My polyphasic sleep experiment lasted two and a half weeks, physically it was great but not so regarding my family. I wonder how would combining the diet with the sleeping habits work.
I guess you need to stabilize your weight and raw diet and that could take time.
I tried following your trial of eating raw, the Fruit not Fat way and gave in to cravings - I think my parasites demand flour products because I didn't feel so well after that. Anyway, I think increasing my raw food and reducing cooked food is an improvement even if it's not 100% raw. Personally I prefer eating more vegetables but I understand your concern with calories and not being hungry during the trial period.

Keep up the good work!
Ami

[Minsc]

Since you record your weight at the end of every day, what's your height and body fat percentage if you can measure it?

If you recorded your body fat percentage every day then you could figure out how much muscle(if any) and fat you're losing...

[feonixrift]

I didn't notice any seaweeds in your ingredient lists, and you said you were avoiding salt... What are you doing for iodine intake?

[escapee]

I would really suggest Steve to stop the trial now. This whole trial feels like running a sport car with inferior gasoline and lubricants ( Yes the car wont run well). The same can be said on human bio-system except that we are much more complicated than a car .

WE NEED all these essential nutrients to function optimally.

[escapee]

FYI

Diagnose-Me: Condition: Aneurysm / Rupture

A cerebral aneurysm may cause symptoms ranging from headaches, drowsiness, neck stiffness, nausea and vomiting to more severe symptoms such as mental confusion, vertigo (dizziness) and loss of consciousness.

Causes of abdominal/aortic aneurysms include:
Hardening of the arteries (atherosclerosis) weakens artery walls
High blood pressure (hypertension) speeds up damage to blood vessel walls
Disease, such as diabetes, syphilis and Marfan's syndrome or Turner's Syndrome
Injury
Congenital defects, such as an inherited weakness in the blood vessel wall
Heredity
Nutritional: Low potassium and copper intake

[Minsc]

Originally Posted by escapee

I would really suggest Steve to stop the trial now. This whole trial feels like running a sport car with inferior gasoline and lubricants ( Yes the car wont run well). The same can be said on human bio-system except that we are much more complicated than a car.

Steve's getting some fat and protein in his diet(~30g of each), which should be enough to not have a nutrient deficiency, especially since it's raw. I'm not sure how much of it is EFAs(I just checked Nutrition Data and 25% of the fat in a banana is EFAs).

Not sure why you're mentioning low potassium intake though. Looking at Nutrition Data again 100 grams of banana has 10% DV potassium and 4% DV copper. Steve ate 3100ish grams of food and assuming the copper data is the same for everything he eats, he'd need to eat 2500 grams to get 100% DV in copper...

[escapee]

Minc, Nutrient deficiency is not just about fat and protein.

25% of the fat in a banana is EFAs.

Are there predominatly Omega 3 fatty acids or Omega 6 fatty acids ? We need a balance of N3 and N6 for optimal health .

Not sure why you're mentioning low potassium intake though.

did you miss the word "and", Copper is always a concern for vegan, and i forgot to mention Zinc and iron .

Steve ate 3100ish grams of food and assuming the copper data is the same for everything he eats, he'd need to eat 2500 grams to get 100% DV in copper...

Do you expect 100% absorption of the minerals from a raw diet high in phytic acids even he eats 2500 grams to reach 100% DV?

Effect of Protein Level and Protein Source on Zinc Absorption in Humans -- Sandström et al. 119 (1): 48 -- Journal of Nutrition

It is concluded that the zinc content of the main protein source of the diet determines the amount of zinc absorbed to a large extent. However, relatively small amounts of animal protein can significantly improve the value of a legume-based meal as a source of zinc.

[escapee]

Factors influencing the Copper, Zinc and Iron absorption .

http://teaching.ucdavis.edu/nut111av...e_minerals.pdf


Influence of Vegetable Protein Sources on Trace Element and Mineral Bioavailability -- Hurrell 133 (9): 2973S -- Journal of Nutrition

Because iron and zinc deficiencies are widespread in infants and young children in developing countries, the bioavailability of iron and zinc from complementary food is a major concern. Iron absorption may be as low as 2–3% from porridge based on whole-grain cereals and legumes (phytic acid 1 g/100 g) even in iron-deficient subjects. Decreasing phytic acid by 90% (100 mg/100 g dried product) would be expected to increase absorption about twofold and complete degradation perhaps fivefold or more

[Minsc]

Originally Posted by escapee

Are there predominatly Omega 3 fatty acids or Omega 6 fatty acids ? We need a balance of N3 and N6 for optimal health.

For the banana it's mostly N6 in a 2:1ish ratio. A cucumber has a 6:1 ratio though, but less fat.

did you miss the word "and", Copper is always a concern for vegan, and i forgot to mention Zinc and iron.

Just mentioned that potassium should be fine.

Also, I found two raw fruits/vegetables that are high in copper: Rowal and spirulina.
I've never heard of the first(ND says it's a fruit), but it has around 50% DV copper per 100 grams.

[escapee]

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Bananas, raw

There is just too little EFAs in Banana. Morevover, it's a weak source of protein . Bare in mind that EFAs need sufficient protein an others to work properly ( and vice versa ).

The Fatty Acid-Protein Connection

The highest source of EFAs in vegetable food ( or perhaps the entire food source ) is seeds and nuts. EFAs in green leaf and fruits are just so little that you need to eat that kind of quantity that ruminants consume with multiple digestive system .

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Nuts, walnuts, black, dried

If you would compare Banana with Walnuts ( gram by gram ) , you would see there is a big difference in the EFAs content.

Spiriluna ( High protein, high minerals ) has always been considered as a superfood by many ( if you arent allergic to it) but it has not gained the popularity that it truly deserves. ( maybe alot of people are allergic to it but i do not know for sure)

[mikeschu]

Steve, have you talked to Roger recently to see if there's something missing in your diet or something you can change? I know he follows the board, but I'd be curious to see if he has any suggestions or if the diet you're following is too restrictive for raw foodists.

[Jaben]

I think those of us who have had some success with the raw diet would agree it requires more than a 30 day trial.

I was advocating more greens because I think that's what you need to feel well with the constraints you've given yourself. However, with out those constraints I'd advocate a diet of bad food combining to start with. For someone who's starting off, I think it's best to try to make raw food that will satisfy all of your cravings for cooked food and worry about tweaking calorie percentages and food combining later.

This does require some additional time in the kitchen unless you have raw food restaurants convenient. But, keep in mind it's temporary. I think you're targeting the ideal diet, but your ignoring the transition period which is much longer than 30 days.

You are not following the diet you were aiming for exactly.

Specifically you were aiming for %10 protein and you're getting a little more than half that. I don't know how you can achieve the 80/10/10 without eating more greens. But you can ignore everyone's advice and just look at your own data.

If you look at the last 8 days of your trial, there is a very direct correlation with how you feel and the number of grams of dark green leafy vegetable consumption (kale, spinach, mixed greens). At, least for that period I could have predicted how you felt quite precisely based on the number of grams of greens you ate Anything below 200g seems to be inadequate.

Day | Green | Well Being
Num | Leafies (g) | (1-10)
----- ----------------- ----------------
6 - 208 - 8 best so far
7 - 242 - 9 better (2-3 hours euphoria)
8 - 296 - 8 normal
9 - 124 - 4 cravings
10 - 0 - 2 nausea
11 - 394 - 10 best by far
12 - 76 - 3 foggy
13 - 184 - 5 yoyo

[tekomino]

Knowing when to quit is sign of personal growth. Only ego wants to keep going...

[beel]

Originally Posted by Jaben

I think those of us who have had some success with the raw diet would agree it requires more than a 30 day trial.

I was advocating more greens because I think that's what you need to feel well with the constraints you've given yourself. However, with out those constraints I'd advocate a diet of bad food combining to start with. For someone who's starting off, I think it's best to try to make raw food that will satisfy all of your cravings for cooked food and worry about tweaking calorie percentages and food combining later.

This does require some additional time in the kitchen unless you have raw food restaurants convenient. But, keep in mind it's temporary. I think you're targeting the ideal diet, but your ignoring the transition period which is much longer than 30 days.

You are not following the diet you were aiming for exactly.

Specifically you were aiming for %10 protein and you're getting a little more than half that. I don't know how you can achieve the 80/10/10 without eating more greens. But you can ignore everyone's advice and just look at your own data.

If you look at the last 8 days of your trial, there is a very direct correlation with how you feel and the number of grams of dark green leafy vegetable consumption (kale, spinach, mixed greens). At, least for that period I could have predicted how you felt quite precisely based on the number of grams of greens you ate Anything below 200g seems to be inadequate.

Day | Green | Well Being
Num | Leafies (g) | (1-10)
----- ----------------- ----------------
6 - 208 - 8 best so far
7 - 242 - 9 better (2-3 hours euphoria)
8 - 296 - 8 normal
9 - 124 - 4 cravings
10 - 0 - 2 nausea
11 - 394 - 10 best by far
12 - 76 - 3 foggy
13 - 184 - 5 yoyo

i couldn't agree more, except i think you can see significant results and be transitioned after 30 days. i think increasing consumption of dark greens is within his trial guidelines and would make a huge difference in how he is feeling. something as simple as increasing the percentage of greens in his morning smoothie and using a darker green like kale would likely suffice. also, a big salad daily. furthermore, he is dealing with cravings from a transition period and i agree that eating what you want at the beginning is very helpful to get through the adjustment. a lot of times that means more nuts or oils for "comfort", even if that is not the ideal long-term.

steve, how do you feel about dates? one of my favorite comfort treats is a date stuffed with almond, cashew, or pecan butter. its a different kind of sweet than fruits and very satisfying.

[Joeschmoe]

Originally Posted by Jaben

I think those of us who have had some success with the raw diet would agree it requires more than a 30 day trial.

I was advocating more greens because I think that's what you need to feel well with the constraints you've given yourself. However, with out those constraints I'd advocate a diet of bad food combining to start with. For someone who's starting off, I think it's best to try to make raw food that will satisfy all of your cravings for cooked food and worry about tweaking calorie percentages and food combining later.

This does require some additional time in the kitchen unless you have raw food restaurants convenient. But, keep in mind it's temporary. I think you're targeting the ideal diet, but your ignoring the transition period which is much longer than 30 days.

You are not following the diet you were aiming for exactly.

Specifically you were aiming for %10 protein and you're getting a little more than half that. I don't know how you can achieve the 80/10/10 without eating more greens. But you can ignore everyone's advice and just look at your own data.

If you look at the last 8 days of your trial, there is a very direct correlation with how you feel and the number of grams of dark green leafy vegetable consumption (kale, spinach, mixed greens). At, least for that period I could have predicted how you felt quite precisely based on the number of grams of greens you ate Anything below 200g seems to be inadequate.

Day | Green | Well Being
Num | Leafies (g) | (1-10)
----- ----------------- ----------------
6 - 208 - 8 best so far
7 - 242 - 9 better (2-3 hours euphoria)
8 - 296 - 8 normal
9 - 124 - 4 cravings
10 - 0 - 2 nausea
11 - 394 - 10 best by far
12 - 76 - 3 foggy
13 - 184 - 5 yoyo

Wow. This is amazing info. I would tend to neglect the greens. So when I start my trial I'm going to try and make sure i get at least 200g of green vegetables. But i also like the proprtions 80/80/10.

[DRK]

Adding greens won't change the 80-10-10 proportions much, at least not in a bad way. (Adding high fat salad dressing will, though.)
Dr. Graham, the 80-10-10 diet guy, recommends getting one to three percent of your daily calories from greens, on average. Because they're so low in calories, that's actually a lot of greens. And if you're eating that much, you can just stick with romaine lettuce, celery, and other mild greens, which are more palatable with the increased sensitivity to taste that eating this way yields.
My last meal of the day is often fruit followed by a huge salad, made with one or two heads of lettuce, plus tomato, cucumber, and/or celery. Sometimes I add avocado or nuts or seeds (tahini), but usually not.
It's looks gigantic, but, as anyone knows who's ever seen how small a bunch of spinach ends up when cooked, it's really not that overwhelming to eat. (No, I don't cook my salads; I break them down the old-fashioned way, by chewing. Or occasionally the new-fangled way, with a blender.)

[joubess]

This is only my second post, but the symptoms Steve describes sound to me like textbook hypoglycemia. We feel foggy and tired and have mood swings when we have low blood sugar, and low blood sugar also causes us to sleep excessively. The brain's fuel is glucose, and it just doesn't have enough fuel to keep running, so it crashes.

I'm a chemist (22 years) and I've done a lot of study on biochemistry and metabolic syndrome (my family tends toward type II diabetes), and the symptoms doctors warn about when getting a patient's blood sugar within normal range.

Switching so quickly from a cooked, more varied diet to a completely raw food diet could be the culprit. His body hasn't had enough time to adjust to the changes in metabolism that will occur. If this is the case, the symptoms will clear up on their own, and as he finds more variety of foods, things will settle down.

However, he may be sensitive to sugar changes and may be experiencing a significant insulin dump after an all fruit meal.

Suggestions:

First: have blood sugar and other electrolytes measured before breakfast, just one test, and see what they are. If sugar is below the minimum, that is likely the culprit for the ups and downs, fogginess and tiredness.

Second: Managing blood sugar from the bottom side will mean increasing leafy greens, vegetables, protein and fat intake, and balance it out with fruit intake. I would recommend against all fruit meals. Also, a slight increase in protein and fat temporarily may help keep blood sugar within normal limits.

Third: More frequent snacks of fruit, nuts and seeds will help maintain blood sugar within a smaller range, and fruit right before bed might help with morning fogginess.

Fourth: Weight loss doesn't seem out of line but it is a little fast. An increase in total calories to get more protein and fat into his diet might help. Maybe slow weight loss to 1-2 pounds/week instead of over 3 pounds/week.

It sounds to me like he's just running out of gas.

I hope this helps,
Sherri

[nownow]

Originally Posted by joubess

This is only my second post, but the symptoms Steve describes sound to me like textbook hypoglycemia. We feel foggy and tired and have mood swings when we have low blood sugar, and low blood sugar also causes us to sleep excessively. The brain's fuel is glucose, and it just doesn't have enough fuel to keep running, so it crashes.

I'm a chemist (22 years) and I've done a lot of study on biochemistry and metabolic syndrome (my family tends toward type II diabetes), and the symptoms doctors warn about when getting a patient's blood sugar within normal range.

Switching so quickly from a cooked, more varied diet to a completely raw food diet could be the culprit. His body hasn't had enough time to adjust to the changes in metabolism that will occur. If this is the case, the symptoms will clear up on their own, and as he finds more variety of foods, things will settle down.

However, he may be sensitive to sugar changes and may be experiencing a significant insulin dump after an all fruit meal.

Suggestions:
Third: More frequent snacks of fruit, nuts and seeds will help maintain blood sugar within a smaller range, and fruit right before bed might help with morning fogginess.

I hope this helps,
Sherri

Fruit before bed may mean an early awakening and an ADD morning. Almonds before bed will give you a slow burn throughout the night and the necessary aminos to wake up rejuvenated.

[Jaben]

Originally Posted by Joeschmoe

Wow. This is amazing info. I would tend to neglect the greens. So when I start my trial I'm going to try and make sure i get at least 200g of green vegetables. But i also like the proportions 80/80/10.

Joe. 200g seemed to be the minimum based on which days 6 - 13 Steve felt well. I aim for about 1 lb of greens per day (455g). I prefer the darker ones (kale, collards, spinach, swiss chard, dandelion, mache, arugala, etc.) and believe it is important to eat a wide variety of different types. Kale is my favorite. It is also very important to eat organic for purity as well as mineral and vitamin content. See my post on Day 8 for savory and sweet green smoothie recipes from Victoria Boutenko.

[Lauxa]

I am thinking about trying this diet for Lent (probably with more fat), but I was already thinking that I would probably have more green smoothies than Steve has been. A fascinating correlation, Jaben, between the subjective quality of Steve's days and his leafy green vegetable intake!

[happymomof2]

Has anyone done significant reading of the beyondveg. com website? The author (or one of the authors?) is a former vegetarian/vegan/raw foodist. One of the blurbs I read exposed many raw foodists as occasional, secretive binge eaters.

I'm fairly new to the raw food movement, so I don't have much background knowledge or experience. I looked up Tim Van Orden's website and was surprised by 1)how muscular he was, 2)how low his daily caloric intake was, and 3)how he truly purported to be 100% raw while running the long distances that he does.

Lastly, I have to agree with others that Steve should incorporate more dark leafy greens in place of all the fruit. Organic kale in the smoothies is probably a great place to start. Also, I would highly suggest tart fruits in the smoothies such as pomegranate arils and cranberries. That should take the edge off so much sweetness!

[Kita]

Originally Posted by Jaben

I think those of us who have had some success with the raw diet would agree it requires more than a 30 day trial.

I was advocating more greens because I think that's what you need to feel well with the constraints you've given yourself. However, with out those constraints I'd advocate a diet of bad food combining to start with. For someone who's starting off, I think it's best to try to make raw food that will satisfy all of your cravings for cooked food and worry about tweaking calorie percentages and food combining later.

This does require some additional time in the kitchen unless you have raw food restaurants convenient. But, keep in mind it's temporary. I think you're targeting the ideal diet, but your ignoring the transition period which is much longer than 30 days.

You are not following the diet you were aiming for exactly.

Specifically you were aiming for %10 protein and you're getting a little more than half that. I don't know how you can achieve the 80/10/10 without eating more greens. But you can ignore everyone's advice and just look at your own data.

If you look at the last 8 days of your trial, there is a very direct correlation with how you feel and the number of grams of dark green leafy vegetable consumption (kale, spinach, mixed greens). At, least for that period I could have predicted how you felt quite precisely based on the number of grams of greens you ate Anything below 200g seems to be inadequate.

Day | Green | Well Being
Num | Leafies (g) | (1-10)
----- ----------------- ----------------
6 - 208 - 8 best so far
7 - 242 - 9 better (2-3 hours euphoria)
8 - 296 - 8 normal
9 - 124 - 4 cravings
10 - 0 - 2 nausea
11 - 394 - 10 best by far
12 - 76 - 3 foggy
13 - 184 - 5 yoyo

Excellent post! This makes a lot of sense to me, I always try to get at least 150g leafy greens (I'm a girl/120lbs so I'm only eating about 1200cal a day) but I think I'll aim to double that after reading this. I haven't been keeping a detailed food log like Steve but I have noticed my best days involve several green smoothies.

This also seems a better explanation than blood sugar problems, simply based on the number of people that do successfully follow a high fruit diet.

[Savage]

Interesting connection with the greens. I can't say it's causal though. To me it makes sense that I eat more greens when I'm feeling good because I'm willing to spend a little more time preparing my meals and throwing in a few extra greens. When I don't feel good, I just want some calories and don't worry about getting enough greens.