Steve's advice for mastering a subject--does it apply to foreign languages

[Tasaio]

こにちは!

In one of his blog entries, Steve writes:

If you don’t understand a word, a concept, or a lesson, then drop everything and do whatever it takes to learn it before you continue on.

followed by,

During each semester ask yourself this question: Am I ready to be tested right now on everything that has been taught up to this point? If your answer is ever “no,” then you know you’re falling behind, and you need to catch up immediately.

I found this to be excellent advice when taking math and computer science subjects.

But now, I would like to branch out into learning my family's second language--日本語 (Japanese). What I'm really interested in is the ability to read & write.

Whenever I ask myself

"Am I ready to be tested on all vocabulary up until this point?"

the answer is inevitably, "no".

But several people have suggested that, when learning a language, you should never spend time trying to master vocabulary.

Their argument is that the time spent mastering a few words (clock, chair, passport) is better used practicing reading real material.

If Steve, or anyone else, has tried learning a foreign language, I would love to hear your advice!

Thanks in advance,

Tasaio (タセーオ)

[LeahWhitehorse]

Hi Tasaio
That's great you're going to learn your family's language!
I'm currently learning Portuguese and funnily enough that phrase of Steve's jumped right out at me too when I was looking for ways to learn. I'd never learned a language before so learning as an adult is a challenge.
I'm by no means a fluent speaker yet but I'm happy to share some things I've learned.

Firstly yes - I decided to throw everything I can at this to get it done because I really want to learn. I'm passionate about Portuguese, the language, the people, the culture so have a huge motivation to learn.

I didn't know where to start at all so just started with a little cd course learning the basics. Now I'm on a GCSE course at night school and initially that was really overwelming - we have a list of 3000 words to learn and that's as well as all the grammar!

I definately find it easier taking things a chunk at a time. I do believe vocab is massively important - for example, you can learn a ton of grammar but without the words you just can't get your point across. Even when you don't know the grammar just knowing some words can help to communicate sometimes with a lot of gesturing too :-)

That said, you can't plan to learn every single word in the whole language. I don't know every word in my own native tongue! Also - although I know a lot of words in English I won't use them all on a day to day basis.

One thing that helps me is to think about describing my day to someone in English and then translate that into Portuguese - that way I am gradually learning the words and expressions I use on a day to day basis.

I also listen to Portuguese radio a lot and I read online newspapers.

I recommend joining a forum on a topic you are interested in in your target language. Initially you can just try and translate what people are saying but later try to write your own posts. I find people to be wonderfully helpful.

I can still remember the time when I didn't know a single word of Portuguese and now it's such a fantastic feeling when words or phrases jump out at me that I completely understand. Sometimes when I'm hardly listening I suddenly realise what the topic of discussion is. Those words and phrases I know instantly without translating keep me focused on my goal of being fluent and keep me in touch with what fluent means to me.

With my big vocab list I sorted the whole thing out into topics - house and home, transport, the body, family, negative adjectives, positive adjectives, numbers etc etc. This has made it a LOT more manageable.

I vary my learning so that my attention doesn't wander - I'll do a bit of studying grammar, do flashcards, watch the news in Portuguese, read an email or newspaper or website. Everything counts and you will be amazed at how your mind can sometimes just absorb words.

I've also done little things like changing my mobile phone into Portuguese so all those words like 'send', 'search', 'view' etc etc are now completely in my head without really trying because I am using them everyday.

I do have an overall list of things to learn with grammar which keeps me on track. Whilst I'm using lots of different methods I keep myself focused on certain topics of conversation or types of words. This week for example I'm focusing on adjectives to make my speaking more interesting that saying things are simply 'good' or 'bad'.

I hope my rambling post has helped in some way - sorry, I'm a bit tired and after thinking in Portuguese all evening my English has got a bit tongue tied!

x

[ericwmontgomery]

Hey Leah, I'm starting from scratch trying to learn French and I really liked some of your ideas for learning techniques (flash cards, online radio, forums). Especially the small things like changing your phone to use the language is a good idea; I checked my phone and unfortunately it only has English and Spanish, but maybe it's an idea I can use in other places.

Thanks for the tips.

[Kita]

I think the advice definitely holds if you're learning a language formally (as in, taking a class and being graded). I'm learning Japanese too (by the way, there's an ん missing from your こんにちは ^_^), but I'm doing it as a Uni course. I always make a point to learn 100% of the vocab, even really obscure pointless things like "precipitation", because I know it could come up in an exam or listening test. Whenever I see a word I don't know I immediately put it into quizlet (an awesome tool!) and make up some kind of mnemonic for it. When I ask myself "Am I ready to be tested on all vocabulary up until this point?" I make sure the answer is yes. Knowing odd words makes a massive difference in test situations, even though it shouldn't.

That being said, I don't think this is the best way to learn a language if you have the freedom to do it your way. I know advanced weather terms but I have no idea what the word for "happy" or "grass" is. Making broad strokes and filling in details later is probably a much more natural and effective way to learn a language.

[Brutha]

I'd never learned a language before so learning as an adult is a challenge.

You haven't learned English as a child?

I do believe vocab is massively important - for example, you can learn a ton of grammar but without the words you just can't get your point across.

It not the question of learning vocabulary's vs. grammer but rather one of learning through doing vs. learning through theory (vocabulary and grammer).

[theknightwhosaysni-NI]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Whenever I ask myself

"Am I ready to be tested on all vocabulary up until this point?"

the answer is inevitably, "no".

Yes, it's normal. Of course you cannot know all the vocabulary of a language, even native speakers don't know it all !

I think that here you compare a language to other things such as mathematics or computer science because they are topics taught at school and therefore topics on which you can be tested on. It seems normal then to use a test of vocabulary to assess your knowledge of the language.

My opinion is that a test of vocabulary is NOT a good way to assess your knowledge of the language. It doesn't work like mathematics or computer science to me, (unless you are going to have a japanese exam based on vocabulary, but even if you do, and you manage to pass the exam, it would not mean you can speak japanese).

A language is a tool to communicate, to interract with people. Each language carries also a specific way of thinking and behaving. A language is not only a language, it is also a culture. It is not possible to speak perfect English without understanding at least some caracterisitcs of the anglo-saxon and occidental culture. The same applies with Japanese.

So instead of asking yourself the question :

"Am I ready to be tested on all vocabulary up until this point?"

You may want to ask yourself something like :

"Am I ready to have an normal conversation with a native japanese at this point?"

If the answer is no, then instead of only learning vocabulary, you could also for instance go meet some japanese speakers and have dinner with them.

So I guess Steve's method does work also to learn a language, but you just have to adjust a little the question.

[ogrekilleat]

I think the relevent point to be drawn from the article is not how to learn a language, but whether or not it will be easier to learn vocabulary as it is presented, or to learn it all the night before the final exam, to pass which, yes, you will most likely need to know it, including the odd words.

[AlwaysLearning]

Incidentally, when most people "learn vocabulary" what they're doing is memorizing an artificial correspondence between the target language's words and the base language's words. This is only an approximation of the target language. Especially for Japanese which is so radically different than a Eurolanguage.

What you should do is learn enough "foundation" vocabulary... 3000 words or so... using this approximation. Then start gradually transitioning to where, when you add a new word, instead of pairing it with its English equivalent, you pair it with its definition *in a monolingual dictionary of the target language*.

Also it's far more beneficial to read actual sentences using the word, than just memorizing the word. Especially in Japanese where you need to get a sense which particles to use etc.

[LeahWhitehorse]

Hi Eric
Thanks - glad you found it helpful :-)
Hi Brutha
*laughs*- yes, I learned English as child - I meant learning a foreign language.
I agree - I don't consider it as vocabulary versus grammar either. I was just making the point that we need words to communicate. I'm one of those strange people who love learning grammar as well as the vocabulary. I completely agree with you when it comes to putting things into practice. Whilst I can quite easily read Portuguese, if someone read me a paragraph of something in English and then asked me to say it back to them in Portuguese I would find it much harder - even though the words must be somewhere in my mind.

[Brutha]

*laughs*- yes, I learned English as child - I meant learning a foreign language.

To me English is a foreign language, does that mean that English is a really hard language to learn compared to my native language German?

That it is more difficult for me to learn a foreign language because I didn't one as a child is just an unfunded limiting belief.

I was just making the point that we need words to communicate.

Naturally we need words to communicate but that doens't mean that you have to learn them one at a time. As a child you didn't learn English that way.
Either you can learn words one at a time faster than you can learn words through practice or you are simply using a less effective way to learn a language than the one you used as a child. That doesn't mean that it is easier for a child to learn but just that your way to learn is not the most effective available.

[klokkasju]

Here's my way to learn a foreign language:

1. Make sure you really want to learn that language. For example traveling to a country where it's spoken is a real motivation-booster, especially if it is a country where most people don't speak English

2. Get a really good book or even better a course at university (or wherever) to learn the grammar and the overall structure of the language. In my opinion the way I learned foreign languages in school is terrible. One piece of grammar per year ... you just can't learn a language if you try to talk in 3-word-sentences for a year.

3. Learn the pronounciation from a native speaker.

4. Surround yourself with the language. Listen to the radio, watching tv (maybe that's only possible with subtitles), read your favorite book again in this language.

5. Whatever word you don't understand, write it down. Give your bathroom a new look and redecorate it with all the vocabulary you want to learn. It's amazing how much time one spends in the bathroom per day. And instead of singing under the shower you can try to build sentences with the words you just learned

6. Travel to a country where the language is spoken.

Unfortunately most school or courses are build for a "I only want to buy my beer on vacation"-user .... so there are a ton of boring texts at the beginning. I had to learn English this way and I needed a few years after school until I started to enjoy reading English books and I still can't read Shakespeare
But in the foreign languages I started learning after school, I read books from the very beginning and it feels so much better, although it's a very slow reading sometimes.

[MasterD]

Where can I find this article where Steve points out how to master a subject? Couldn't find it.

[Lauxa]

I find with language learning I need to get words from several angles before I really get them. For instance, in teaching myself Spanish, I will watch Spanish cartoons and children's shows. If I hear the word several times in a show, then see the word in a book, then look it up in a dictionary, I will probably remember it.

I know Dora the Explorer is available in Japanese, but maybe not in the states. I personally think Dora is one of the BEST shows for beginning language... she goes very slow and repeats words a lot so it really soaks in. If you can figure out how to get it in Japanese let me know!

[Lauxa]

Leah,

Just wanted to let you know that the Animaniacs DVD has a Portuguese track. At least Vol. 1 does. I was looking for some new cartoons with Spanish track, and was going wha-huh? when I saw it only had Portuguese... usually Spanish and French are more popular...

[LeahWhitehorse]

Hi Lauxa
Thanks for the tip - I'll check that out :-)

[wbuch]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

こにちは!

In one of his blog entries, Steve writes:



followed by,

Can you provide a link to the blog entry? I couldn't find it by doing a quick google search.

Also, does anyone know if the forum software not allow you to quote embedded quotes? It wouldn't grab the quoted text when I clicked the Quote button.

[Paul Mernon]

Here is the blog entry:

10 Tips for College Students

In it Steve writes about college, so if you're taking a second language course in a college, it applies very well, since every course has its program, a limited amount of words which will be used in tests, grammar points you should know on a certain level, example texts which you should be able to understand, etc.

So for college you can ask questions like:

Do I know all new words introduced in this semester?
Can I explain every grammar point I was taught in class?

On the other hand, learning language for yourself, to speak and write freely is a completely different situation. I think setting college-like goals for yourself is effective only at the initial stage, where you need to build a basic vocabulary, learn basic rules. After that I think you need to concentrate on immersion in a foreign language, like many or the earlier posters wrote.

[Trezker]

I've watched many hundred hours of subbed anime, and almost nothing japanese stuck. I just can't pair up the speech with the subs... I should learn some day.
Still it's much more enjoyable to see something in it's original language even if I don't understand anything they're saying.

I just thought of the language I created myself and how I don't even know what I've created fluently. I wonder if Tolkien spoke Quenya fluently...

[Persona]

Originally Posted by Trezker

I've watched many hundred hours of subbed anime, and almost nothing japanese stuck. I just can't pair up the speech with the subs... I should learn some day.
Still it's much more enjoyable to see something in it's original language even if I don't understand anything they're saying.

I just thought of the language I created myself and how I don't even know what I've created fluently. I wonder if Tolkien spoke Quenya fluently...

The only Japanese I learned from anime is "baka"

More to the topic, I would not say that Steve's advice in that article is very good advice for learning a language UNLESS you are taking it as a college course, in which case, dig out your flashcards until you have everything memorized. Ironically, the way schools teach language is FAR from optimal, so if you are learning on your own, I would look into other approaches.

I highly highly recommend the forums on Learning Languages to meet like-minded independent language learners. Most independent learners recognize the importance of audio material, because language is above all a spoken medium. So you will find that most of them utilize audio courses and exercise drills that emphasize intuitive responses in the target language, as well as native written materials. The problem of acquiring additional vocabulary is quite easy once you have a good handle on how the language works. It's a lot more satisfying to have a mutually intelligible conversation with a native speaker than to know the term for every item in your kitchen.

[ManfredKo]

The most important thing is having fun during the process of language learning. My strategy is to use a lot of language learning material and switch as soon as it gets boring. That keeps me motivated.

[Rick Abelson]

I studied Japanese like crazy like a man possessed in the early 90's using all the methods; tapes, books, tutors, university classes etc. Unfortunately there was no Japanese radio or TV to listen or watch and if you don't use it you are going to lose it. I never went to Japan. I also have spent the last 7 years learning spanish using the same techniques but didn't really learn at all until I moved to Ecuador and was totally immersed for 6 mos. In my opinion, that is the only real effective way to learn. Of course it also helps to be young while the brain is still establishing its pathways. I am 61 and it is always tougher learning a new language the older a person is. Wakarimas ka?