30 Days Raw (Blog)

[Tobias Zimpel]

Originally Posted by nickynoodles

I'm interested to know your views on getting enough Vitamin B12 in a Vegan or Raw diet. My (possibly naive) understanding is that B12 is important for cell division and blood formation, but the only good quality sources of it for humans are meat, dairy or man-made products. All of the Vegan / Vegetarian sites seem to say that you should either take supliments or eat fortified foods.

If you have a fully functional intestinal flora, there are bacteria present that build vitamine B12 - as well as many other vitamines.

The problem is that most people don't have a fully functional flora, so there is some danger to it long-term. However, there are ways to rebuild the flora over time, and full vitamine B12 depots in the body usually last for at least some years until you will get a problem.

There is a broad variety of techniques, from fasting to special combinations of food. Here's a google translated version of a german article about the topic.

Originally Posted by nickynoodles

My wife is veggie and I considered going veggie, but I wanted to see some 'proof' that a vegetarian diet is a natural state for a human. To me, this seems to suggest the opposite and that we're natrually omnivores.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? ....

Steve already wrote an article on this topic: Are Humans Carnivores or Herbivores? So I'm not going to repeat it here.

HTH...

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Interesting... never knew that about him. Did he eat a SAD diet instead?

I asked her this very question. Here is the response:

---

The ad hominem attack against Dr. Atkins is a set-off for my bullshit-detector. If his diet is so bad, why argue against him as an individual, why not argue against his ideas? My bullshit detector sent me straight to wikipedia, which had a couple of corrections to the FUD (fear, uncertainty, and doubt) that quote was trying to spread. He died at age 73, well within the expected range (average for white male in year of his death = 75) for his population, from causes completely unrelated to his diet. I'm not sure what diet, if any, he actually followed.

---

Hope this helps Steve.

[danaseilhan]

Overall I find this site useful in terms of personal development advice. But the dietary stuff is really starting to annoy me.

1. Just because someone eats meat does not mean they never eat plant foods. I'm tired of seeing meat-eaters slammed for "not eating healthy" when some of the healthiest people on this planet eat mostly meat. If you look at the Inuit and the Masai on their traditional diets they put even the most conscientious vegan to shame.

2. You need fat in your diet to maintain cell walls, nerve cells, hormones, and a whole slew of other stuff. Until the Agricultural Revolution human beings preferred fat as an energy source, and it is the body's second-most preferred source of energy after glucose, especially in the form of triglycerides and ketones (which come from fat).

3. You're right that a high-protein diet is a bad idea, but any good low-carb diet is going to be high-fat, not high-protein--even Atkins. Dr. Atkins always advised his patients not to skimp on their fat intake or there wouldn't be much point to them doing Atkins because if the body gets more protein than it can use, it turns almost half its protein calories into glucose. (By contrast, even with excessive fat intake--rather difficult to attain, as fat causes the satiety response sooner than other macronutrients do--the body only turns about ten percent of fat calories into glucose and must burn calories in the process of doing so.)

3a. We DO need protein: we need the essential amino acids. We make most of the amino acids we use but there are eight we need to intake because we can't make them. In short, we will DIE without them. Vegetarians get away with not eating animal protein sources precisely because they have figured out how to get those essential amino acids from a wide variety of food sources.

4. Dr. Atkins had a heart attack because he had a viral form of cardiomyopathy. He struggled with his weight his entire adult life but found that he controlled it better with controlled-carbohydrate eating. (In fact his weight problems were what sent him looking for a realistic weight-loss program in the first place.) When he hit his head on the sidewalk he went into a coma and his body suffered from edema as a result of all the IVs and the drugs they had him on at the hospital. That was what caused his kidney failure. His medical records have been released to the public both by some vegetarian wacko (who released them illegally) and by his widow, and they show he gained a significant amount of weight during his hospital stay. That was all water weight, and it severely stressed his kidneys. All of this information is available on the Internet and I don't know why you didn't check for it.

5. And by the way, I've done Atkins, and I find it hard to continue not because of the meat intake but because I have never been a big veggie eater and doing Atkins correctly requires a significant vegetable intake, as that is the healthiest way to incorporate carbohydrates into one's diet. Yes, even Dr. Atkins said that. His books are available at the library, so I don't know what the problem is here, and you aren't the only one who consistently misrepresents his diet. But I would have expected better from you because you're a smart man who knows how to read and does it often.

But. While I'm on Atkins I feel better than on any other kind of diet--including a vegan diet, which contributed to my seventy-pound weight gain after my daughter was born, and this while I was exclusively breastfeeding her. Now I did not choose the healthiest vegan foods to eat, but I was also very poor at the time, and I had to make do with what I could afford. See also what I said about not being a serious veggie person. I eat more vegetables on Atkins than at any other time. But I also eat more fat than at any other time, and I find that between the fat and the animal protein I keep my blood sugar a lot more even. I don't get enough calories on vegetables alone. Carbohydrates are an unacceptable source of calories for me because I am borderline diabetic, and every type of carbohydrate except fiber and a couple of oddballs like glycerin raises my blood sugar. They're supposed to. All carbohydrates ARE sugars, but some are more digestible than others.

And there you go, for what it's worth. Also, there's a trend toward metabolic typing in the altmed community which I think you should look into. It might explain why some people thrive as vegans (although I have a hard time believing this, but I'm not going to get into it right now, because I don't have enough knowledge to argue convincingly) and some develop persistent anemia unless they can have heme iron (of animal origin) and some can't control their blood sugar unless they have some meat every day. Some natropaths think it has to do with blood type, and some think the story is more complex than that. It'll be interesting to see what they find eventually.

The other reason I don't eat vegan is the environmental arguments do not convince me. You kill more animals plowing and planting an agricultural field than you do slaughtering one cow. About the best thing they've got going is that cows put off methane, but gee, so do termites--and cutting down forests to plant fields is a great way to encourage termite mounds. And you don't need to cut a forest to raise cattle, contrary to current industrial ag practices. I've heard of people herding them in forests, which seems eminently sensible to me.

The compassion bit doesn't do it for me, either, since we can't turn back the clock and make our domesticated animals be wild again. We treat them better than they'd face in the wild at this point, and if we use the old methods we kill them better than, say, a lion would. Industrial ag notwithstanding, of course; I want to see that done away with as much as you do. And not just because of food poisoning either, since I'd be just as much at risk of it from eating veggies as from meat. (At least you can cook the germs off of most cuts of meat, unlike with, say, alfalfa sprouts.)

OK, enough of that. It's probably nothing you haven't heard before anyway; it'd just be nice if you'd change your tune just a bit to, "Veganism works FOR ME but might not work for everyone," because that'd be closer to the truth, which I think we'd all prefer to read here.

[Derek Pankaew]

Hey Steve,

I've personally done a 30 day raw trial, as well as a 1 week 80/10/10 trial. I'm definitely thinking of switching to 80/10/10 at least for another 30 days; and I think it'd be inspirational and educational to read along with your experience =)

I didn't feel a huge difference when I switched >to< 80/10/10, but when I switched off I definitely noticed a big drop in energy and clogged digestion.

Please do blog about it =)

Cheers,

- Derek

[SteveR]

Not to be crude, but what are the intestinal effects of eating all of this fruit? I'm curious as to how many trips to the bathroom will this cause. This is not a problem for those who work at home, but what about people who don't have easy access to a bathroom during the work day.

SteveR

[Bonkers]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

I'd be curious about this diet not from a weight loss perspective, but a weight gain perspective.

I won't lie to myself. I want 15 inch arms and bench 400 lbs. I'm 5' 7" and 120 lbs., like really thin. Slowly but surely I gain weight.

I'm in the same boat, is there any variations of this diet that would allow for weight gain (I mean I could eat a hell of a lot of nuts but isn't that bad for you?)

Also is Soy Milk allowed in this diet?

[dsmoke]

Yeah, Steve, I'm very interested in hearing about your raw food trial IF you will skip the "one diet is good for everyone" piousness. I've done my own 30 day trial (more of a 365 day trial) and found what keeps me healthy, and my results are very different than yours. I love hearing about what other people discover in terms of personal nutrition, and I eat some raw food myself, but I get very turned off by bashing of other nutritional approaches or a one-size-fits-all mentality.

[Derek Pankaew]

Originally Posted by dsmoke

Yeah, Steve, I'm very interested in hearing about your raw food trial IF you will skip the "one diet is good for everyone" piousness. I've done my own 30 day trial (more of a 365 day trial) and found what keeps me healthy, and my results are very different than yours. I love hearing about what other people discover in terms of personal nutrition, and I eat some raw food myself, but I get very turned off by bashing of other nutritional approaches or a one-size-fits-all mentality.

Why shouldn't one size fit all?

Biologically speaking, there's no animal that has different optimal diets within the species. There are no monkeys that function better on beef than bananas. Raw meat is what wolves thrive off most - There are no wolves for whom the optimal diet is curry chicken.

Within the species, biologically, there is only one optimal diet.

As far as I can tell, Steve isn't really saying "This is the way, the only way." He's saying his personal belief is that this diet is the healthiest way to go; and he's not really saying you're wrong for whatever choices you make.

[dsmoke]

Originally Posted by Derek Pankaew

Why shouldn't one size fit all?

Because what works for Steve doesn't work for me. Therefore, one size does not fit all in my experience.

I'm not really interested in arguing this point on an internet forum. I'm merely requesting that if Steve blogs about his experience, which I hope he does, that he doesn't use a "my way is the only right way" approach, which is very tempting for anyone who discovers something that works for them.

[Tobias Zimpel]

Originally Posted by dsmoke

I'm not really interested in arguing this point on an internet forum. I'm merely requesting that if Steve blogs about his experience, which I hope he does, that he doesn't use a "my way is the only right way" approach, which is very tempting for anyone who discovers something that works for them.

Steve is still writing a personal blog, expressing his opinion.

Might I point you to an article of Steve called How to Find the Best Diet for You, that begins as follows:

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

What type of diet will give you the greatest amount of energy, health, and mental clarity?

I don’t know. I’m not you.

Looks to me that Steve is not saying that his diet is the one to go, and everything else is wrong.

However, I bet that Steve is perfectly fine with you being ...disturbed by the ideas he is expressing.

No offense!

[Andrew Brunelle]

I wish Steve luck in his quest to find the optimal diet. I hope this one is a success, as you noted the other raw trials were not. I recommend a website for raw eating called Living and Raw Foods: The largest community on the internet for living and raw food information. I do not eat a raw diet, but it does have tons of information about it. It is a bit self-righteous though. Good luck.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I wish Steve luck in his quest to find the optimal diet. I hope this one is a success, as you noted the other raw trials were not. I recommend a website for raw eating called Living and Raw Foods: The largest community on the internet for living and raw food information. I do not eat a raw diet, but it does have tons of information about it. It is a bit self-righteous though. Good luck.

I found that site a year or two ago and spent quite a bit of time reading articles there. Lots of interesting articles and recipes.

[Seraph]

Hi,

This might seem like a kind of weird question to ask in a thread on going completely raw, but...

I notice that Steve says that he did not experience such a big difference when making the change to a vegetarian diet, but noticed a significant change when moving to a vegan diet. This kind of makes me wonder whether the real problem is actually the dairy component of the diet.

I'd be interested to hear from people who still eat minimal meat, but in combination with a raw food diet (or even a minimal meat in combination with a mostly vegan diet, if that even makes sense). Do you still get the reported benefits of a raw food diet (or vegan diet)?

I tried a vegetarian 30 day trial and must say that I noticed almost no difference at all. I'm tempted to try a vegan 30 day trial, but I'm also interested in whether a similar result can be had by simply removing the diary component and cutting back on the meat component while increasing the fruit and veg component of the diet.

Seraph.

ps. Feel free to kick me out of this thread and into a dedicated topic if you like as I don't want to derail this thread. This thread was the inspiration for my thought though. :-)

[Mr.Mustache]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Animals don't salt their food, and human beings don't need to either if they just eat enough calories.

If not from iodized salt or fish where will you get your iodine? Why no grains, beans, onions or garlic?

The experiment has caught my interest, share the experience with us!

[bart]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I just find it interesting that no matter how much fruit I eat, it doesn't seem to spike my blood sugar.

That is how it normally works for a human being. Most people develop diabetes at a late age, and although some claim that is genetically determined, there is compelling new evidence it could also be caused by eating too much carbohydrates/sugar and your pancreas eventually stops functioning as it should. I will experiment a bit with fructose/tree fruit on an empty stomach (to avoid the poison effects you described) when I can measure blood sugar levels again and see what happens.

Bart

[Andrew Michaels]

I'm only eat raw fruits, vegetables, and a few nuts and seeds. I follow the 80/10/10 diet.

When I first made the switch I wrote about my first 64 days or so. You can see my periodic updates by looking in the archive section of my site and looking under raw diet. There is a big summation at the end.

Best of luck going raw Steve. It made a huge difference in my life, even if it took a few missteps and a lot of will power to get there.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by nickynoodles

Steve,

I'm interested to know your views on getting enough Vitamin B12 in a Vegan or Raw diet. My (possibly naive) understanding is that B12 is important for cell division and blood formation, but the only good quality sources of it for humans are meat, dairy or man-made products. All of the Vegan / Vegetarian sites seem to say that you should either take supliments or eat fortified foods.

From http://www.vegansociety.com

"If for any reason you choose not to use fortified foods or supplements you should recognise that you are carrying out a dangerous experiment"

My wife is veggie and I considered going veggie, but I wanted to see some 'proof' that a vegetarian diet is a natural state for a human. To me, this seems to suggest the opposite and that we're natrually omnivores.

Anyone have any thoughts on this? ....

I honestly don't know the answer (lots of people like to pretend that they do), but I do have a great resource to share. It's extremely comprehensive, and while it could potentially be a comprehensive resource that is inaccurate or mistaken, at least that's better then most of the short articles you can find on B12 that seem to make a whole lot of assumptions.

Here's the link:

Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It? : Table of Contents

Interestingly, I went out and got the blood tests mentioned in the resource I link to above, and all my levels were normal. In fact, my B12 levels were far above normal!

Now that could be attributed to the B12 supplements I've started taking (in pill form) for reasons I won't elaborate on (no secret, it'd just off-topic), or it could be the fact that all the meat and other foods I ate in the years before I went vegan just gave me a very good store of B12. Or it could be something else entirely! There are many, many relating factors, so it's really, really hard to tell. But anyway, I thought I'd throw that out there.

I'm currently a vegan, FYI... been vegan for just over a year. Suffice to say my vegan diet is far from perfected, and I believe I have a lot of room for improvement. I don't eat garbage and junk food, but I do need a larger variety of certain foods, but I'm working on that.

Note: For your sake, don't take what I say or even what I link to as "the gospel truth". I'm not telling you this to cover myself, but to not mislead you and have you go off and do things to your health that may have adverse effects just because I've mentioned something or linked to a resource that seems to have all the answers.

So many people make statements as if they have all the answers (even Steve seems to do it on occasion as well, although I don't think that's his intention, just an artifact of interpretation), but from what I've seen, nobody *really* knows anything. If you knew the nature of reality, perhaps *then* you could draw some decent conclusions, but till then, it's all guesswork.

I highly advise you to think with doubt when you experiment with diet/health. Don't only doubt what seems unlikely, but also doubt those who doubt what seems unlikely as well as your own beliefs and the lenses you use for interpretation.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Bonkers

Also is Soy Milk allowed in this diet?

To quote Steve:

But this time I’ll be eating an even more restrictive diet. Here are some of the rules I’ll be following:

* No beans (including all soy products)

[shant121]

Steve, I'm planning a raw-food trial starting Feb and the timing of your experiment is perfect! would love to get weekly updates from you...

[impaul99]

Are you familiar with the work of Dr. John Matsen? I'm not sure what the weather is like around your area in the winter time, but eating tropical fruit (banana's, pineapple, etc. ) could disrupt your body's activation of vitamin D, as the body thinks it's summertime when we eat tropical fruit so it's apparently not healthy to eat tropical fruit all year round unless where you live is sunny all year long (our skin+sun activate vitamin d). It could disrupt your vitamin d levels which affect your calcium absorbtion. ALthough, 30 day trial won't make a diff I dont' think.

Also, will you be getting enough EFA's and fibre on this diet? Not the type of fibre found in fruit, but the second type.