Conscription and...the draft

[Tasaio]

Are You Going to be Drafted?

I should preface this by saying that I do not believe conscription will be implemented in the US, nor in Canada.

But, let's suppose it was. What would you do in such a situation?

In particular, I would like to hear what Steve and Erin think about conscription in general.

[ticktockclok]

I don't think a draft will be enacted. But if it was, I'd probably flee to Canada.

[Baltar]

I wouldn't worry about a draft simply because it's not practical (in my opinion it can only happen if the US gets invaded). However, fleeing to Canada may not be possible anymore. They've recently rejected asylum for two US deserters. Of course, these soldiers weren't drafted so this may have influenced the decision.

[Tonezone]

I'm not worried. If they enacted it next year, I would be 23 which means I have at least four years worth of people that would be drafted before me since it usually goes ages 19, then 20, then 21, then 22, etc. etc. as needed.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by Baltar

I wouldn't worry about a draft simply because it's not practical (in my opinion it can only happen if the US gets invaded). However, fleeing to Canada may not be possible anymore. They've recently rejected asylum for two US deserters. Of course, these soldiers weren't drafted so this may have influenced the decision.

Don't worry about Canada. We (or rather, 36%) recently elected an extreme right-wing government. I voted against them.

But they're on their way out. Recent financial scandals--more than one, in fact--are coming to light.

In any case, two of three political parties support the war deserters. As soon as Harper and his cronies are thrown out, the deserters will be more than welcome in Canada.

[Lil Chris]

It'll be hard to flee when Canada the US and Mexico merge into one country, similar to what Europe did...

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Are You Going to be Drafted?

But, let's suppose it was. What would you do in such a situation?

I've thought about this. If it's an offensive war, or a war fought on someone else's soil, I'll refuse to be drafted because I don't believe in the wars we've been fighting. I'd either go to jail, or move to another country, but I'm not going to allow politicians to force me to kill people whom I don't want to kill.

I'm opposed to a draft in the first place anyway philosophically. People aren't resources for a nation to use at its will, at least a true free people. If people care about defending their nation against invasion, then they'll join up and fight voluntarily. The American Revolution is a prime example of that - fighting against the most powerful empire in the world, fighting against invasion of troops who came to restore British power over their colonies. During the Revolution, Congress did not draft a single person. Every "American" who fought against the British did so willingly. Yet the revolutionairies won against the most powerful empire on Earth at the time.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

It'll be hard to flee when Canada the US and Mexico merge into one country, similar to what Europe did...

The US is welcome to join Canada anytime. Just leave the guns at the border.

[Erin Pavlina]

I'm a woman so I don't know if this applies. Do they draft women?

Anyway, bottom line for me is I would never pick up a weapon and use it against an innocent human being. And before anyone nitpicks that, I would kill someone who was threatening to kill my children. But if we keep this to just war, then no way. I would go to another country if that was an option, or find another way to avoid it.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I'm a woman so I don't know if this applies. Do they draft women?

I think they do in Israel.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

And before anyone nitpicks that, I would kill someone who was threatening to kill my children.

Same here, I'd kill anyone who threatens my life or those of my loved ones around me.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

It'll be hard to flee when Canada the US and Mexico merge into one country, similar to what Europe did...

That's not going to happen for many reasons.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I'm a woman so I don't know if this applies. Do they draft women?

I believe any new draft legislation in the US would be required to include both men and women. What percentage of women would have to serve in combat units though is another story (the military has many different jobs for soldiers other than combat).

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Anyway, bottom line for me is I would never pick up a weapon and use it against an innocent human being.

Well that's a can of worms. Would you kill Nazi soldiers during World War II? I would. But I wouldn't want to fight in Vietnam or Iraq. Would you serve if you didn't have to kill people (as a cook, engineer, driver, etc.)?

[Erin Pavlina]

I would be willing to serve in a capacity to support the troops in making their life easier but if it was a war I totally disagreed with than I would avoid that if I could.

And no I wouldn't kill Nazi's during WWII either. And yes, even though I'm jewish.

[openeyes]

Were it an option, I'd take it as a great opportunity to move to Canada or Sweden. If they weren't drafting anyone, France or the Netherlands would also be quite attractive.

If I were rounded up and brought in to enlist before leaving the US, I'd make full use of homosexuals not being allowed in, refuse to wear clothing, and make advances at all the male higher ups (I might start off easy at first to keep from being arrested, just saying I would have sex with men, and then being more wild if that wasn't enough). Even if gays were waived in, my sanity would likely be seriously in question

For Vietnam my dad was too big and an uncle was too skinny to be forced in.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I've thought about this. If it's an offensive war, or a war fought on someone else's soil, I'll refuse to be drafted because I don't believe in the wars we've been fighting. I'd either go to jail, or move to another country, but I'm not going to allow politicians to force me to kill people whom I don't want to kill.

I'm opposed to a draft in the first place anyway philosophically. People aren't resources for a nation to use at its will, at least a true free people. If people care about defending their nation against invasion, then they'll join up and fight voluntarily. The American Revolution isa prime example of that - fighting against the most powerful empire in the world, fighting against invasion of troops who came to restore British power over their colonies. During the Revolution, Congress did not draft a single person. Every "American" who fought against the British did so willingly. Yet the revolutionairies won against the most powerful empire on Earth at the time.

I agree. We don't draft people to be firemen or policemen. Why is it acceptable to draft people for the military?

Conscription is illegal in Australia. Hopefully, Canada will follow suit when the Liberal party is reelected.

I think making conscription illegal is a good start to keeping warmongering leaders in check. If they have a finite number of troops, they'll be much more careful about where--and how--they go to war. They'll be much more likely to work with the UN to achieve overwhelming military force.

Well that's a can of worms. Would you kill Nazi soldiers during World War II? I would. But I wouldn't want to fight in Vietnam or Iraq. Would you serve if you didn't have to kill people (as a cook, engineer, driver, etc.)?

No, I would not kill Nazis. Nor would I serve in a non-combat role.

Re: Nazis

By "Nazis" I assume you're referring to German soldiers serving under Hitler. I should point out that not all soldiers knew about the Holocaust--many probably hated Hitler, and the war. Have you seen Das Boot?

Americans committed atrocities in Vietnam, too. John Kerry was one such veteran. Many non-Americans felt then (as they do now) that the US has committed acts on par with the Nazis.

If you're referring specifically to those running death camps...well, that depends.

If I was a Jewish prisoner, then yes, I would kill a Nazi captor.

If living in an Allied country, I would avoid service for the reasons above. I do not agree with conscription.

Lastly if I was a German soldier, conscripted, I'm not sure what I'd do. How would you react, upon discovering that your government set up death camps?

Re: non-combat roles

Call it what you will, you're still being conscripted. Contrary to what others believe, the government does not own you, and you are not obligated to put your life on the line.

I find it irritating when people imply you aren't "serving your country" if you avoid conscription. Why is military service worth any more than other contributions to society?

Conscription is odd in that it treats everyone as equal--but we all know that's not the case. Some people are more suited than others for military service.

[hymalaia]

If I was drafted I'd play the disability card. I have a psychotic break on my medical record due to being given bad medications. Granted that was 12 years ago but I don't think the military wants to take on that kind of risk. Frankly that'd be a smart move on their part. If they put a gun in my hand and told me what to do, I'd have a hard time not pulling a Gomer Pyle on my commanding officer... Which is my answer to what I'd do if they "forced" me to serve aka the Russians or Nazi's in WW2.

[AlmostGone]

As an American citizen, I live in, arguably, the greatest country that has ever existed. There is freedom and opportunity to achieve whatever you can dream. With that freedom and opportunity comes an obligation and responsibility. It hasn't happened often, but when America has had a need to call young men to come to her aid, it was need, not want.

You can agree or disagree with this war or that war, but we can't cherry-pick when we'll defend our respective countries. Personally, if I knew I wouldn't step up when called to defend my country, I'd have the honor to leave before being called. To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

As an American citizen, I live in, arguably, the greatest country that has ever existed. There is freedom and opportunity to achieve whatever you can dream. With that freedom and opportunity comes an obligation and responsibility. It hasn't happened often, but when America has had a need to call young men to come to her aid, it was need, not want.

You can agree or disagree with this war or that war, but we can't cherry-pick when we'll defend our respective countries. Personally, if I knew I wouldn't step up when called to defend my country, I'd have the honor to leave before being called. To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly.

Written like a true 1930s recruitment ad.

You sound younger than 18, so I'll explain why you're wrong. America is not the greatest country to have ever existed. Far from it, now. Your big talk is evidence of its weak education system.

Try reading "Freedom Under Siege" by Congressman Ron Paul--a man who, incidentally, I'm at odds with on other political issues. You mentioned the freedom to be whatever you want--an essential part of that freedom is the choice to refuse military service. America was founded by people trying to get away from governments running their lives.

I suggest that you speak with people that have actually served--in real wars, not training exercises. Forget everything the WW2 recreationists and weekend warriors tell you. Those make-believe soldiers are what I call "cowards".

I, for one, have family members who lived through--and served in--WW2.

You'll be surprised to learn that military service isn't everything it's made out to be. The Nazis, for instance, said nothing of the death camps they were running. The story sold to the German people was that they were "under attack".

The sad truth is that your response could very well belong to a young man living in Germany during WW2. Hopefully, as you take some high school history courses, you'll expand your horizons outside of Fox News, and learn how your great country works.

And if you are old enough to serve, then I must ask why you aren't in the military right now. How can you enjoy the benefits of citizenship, when your military has need of young men like yourself?

"To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly."

If you're old enough to defend it, then take your own advice. Go to Iraq and lend a hand.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I would be willing to serve in a capacity to support the troops in making their life easier but if it was a war I totally disagreed with than I would avoid that if I could.

And no I wouldn't kill Nazi's during WWII either. And yes, even though I'm jewish.

I find it interesting that you possess the compassion you claim. If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII? I understand non-violence when possible. But Nazi Germany was killing Jews as fast as it could. Indiscriminately killing men, women, and children who committed the crime of being a Jew.

Do you not acknowledge the existence of evil? I don't think the millions of your faith who were slaughtered like livestock were victims of some misunderstanding. They saw the face of evil, the Nazis of 20th century Germany.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Written like a true 1930s recruitment ad.

You sound younger than 18, so I'll explain why you're wrong. America is not the greatest country to have ever existed. Far from it, now. Your big talk is evidence of its weak education system.

Try reading "Freedom Under Siege" by Congressman Ron Paul--a man who, incidentally, I'm at odds with on other political issues. You mentioned the freedom to be whatever you want--an essential part of that freedom is the choice to refuse military service. America was founded by people trying to get away from governments running their lives.

I suggest that you speak with people that have actually served--in real wars, not training exercises. Forget everything the WW2 recreationists and weekend warriors tell you. Those make-believe soldiers are what I call "cowards".

I, for one, have family members who lived through--and served in--WW2.

You'll be surprised to learn that military service isn't everything it's made out to be. The Nazis, for instance, said nothing of the death camps they were running. The story sold to the German people was that they were "under attack".

The sad truth is that your response could very well belong to a young man living in Germany during WW2. Hopefully, as you take some high school history courses, you'll expand your horizons outside of Fox News, and learn how your great country works.

And if you are old enough to serve, then I must ask why you aren't in the military right now. How can you enjoy the benefits of citizenship, when your military has need of young men like yourself?

"To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly."

If you're old enough to defend it, then take your own advice. Go to Iraq and lend a hand.

Thank you for the "You sound younger than 18,...". That was a lifetime ago. As far as talking to people who've seen war, I have. Some still alive, some just names on a wall. I have served and at my age I don't think I'm a viable candidate for service again.

My worldview is not a result of Fox News or MSNBC or CNN. It's a product of watching and learning over many, many years.

Whatever you may think, I stand by my previous post.

On edit: The 30's were before my time, but I think it's safe to say, recruitment ads were probably few and far between. One question: Is the anonymity the Internet offers, the reason people feel free to be rude and obnoxious to people who have different views? If you happen to be taking any high school courses , don't take a course in debate. The grade would really hurt your GPA.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

I find it interesting that you possess the compassion you claim. If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII? I understand non-violence when possible. But Nazi Germany was killing Jews as fast as it could. Indiscriminately killing men, women, and children who committed the crime of being a Jew.

Do you not acknowledge the existence of evil? I don't think the millions of your faith who were slaughtered like livestock were victims of some misunderstanding. They saw the face of evil, the Nazis of 20th century Germany.

Men are not evil, though they may commit evil acts. There is humanity in everyone. Yes, even killers. Doesn't mean I condone killing, but I would never say a person is evil because that would be incorrect.

You're saying that I am not compassionate if I refuse to kill people? Wow, that's a new one. Not sure I can wrap my head around it.

Killing in retaliation for killing does not bring peace. How does that saying go? "Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity." You can't fix the problem by becoming part of it.

Oh there's another bumper sticker I love. "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" And yeah, I oppose the death penalty. Here is my take on that:

Why I Deplore the Death Penalty

[mlc82]

I would fight to the death to defend my family, friends, or home. I would not be willing to kill others in a foreign land for the purpose of benefitting a relatively few number of people in top government positions/businesses, while myself or most of the rest of the country's population didn't benefit from it all.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Men are not evil, though they may commit evil acts. There is humanity in everyone. Yes, even killers. Doesn't mean I condone killing, but I would never say a person is evil because that would be incorrect.

You're saying that I am not compassionate if I refuse to kill people? Wow, that's a new one. Not sure I can wrap my head around it.

Killing in retaliation for killing does not bring peace. How does that saying go? "Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity." You can't fix the problem by becoming part of it.

Oh there's another bumper sticker I love. "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" And yeah, I oppose the death penalty. Here is my take on that:

Why I Deplore the Death Penalty

Where does this come from: "You're saying that I am not compassionate if I refuse to kill people?"? I'm probably a good bit older than you. In my lifetime I've known more then a few Jewish folks. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any who would have a compunction about ridding the world of Nazis in WWII. You said you wouldn't. That was the compassion I was referring too.

Am I correct in thinking you don't believe in self-defense if that involves deadly force? There's only one problem with that view.

I will agree that Man isn't born evil but I must strenuously disagree that Man cannot become evil. I'm not talking about run of the mill run-ins with the law. For example, John Couey could be a poster child for evil. Would you not agree? I cannot even consider that he is human.

[Erin Pavlina]

You said: "I find it interesting that you possess the compassion you claim. If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII?" That's what I was responding to.

I just wouldn't kill anyone. If they want to kill me, they have to bear the karma. I'm not going to pick up a gun and go hunt a human who is not directly threatening me in the moment. That's murder. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I mentioned, I think twice, that I would use deadly force in a self-defense situation if someone was about to kill my kids or husband or myself.

Now, as to the underlying question which I think is really, "Can we stand idly by while men commit evil acts?" Then my answer would be no. I wouldn't ignore what was happening. I just wouldn't use a gun to solve the problem.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

And no I wouldn't kill Nazi's during WWII either. And yes, even though I'm jewish.

Well alright, you did say you'd kill to defend your kids right? I'm Jewish too, and some of my family members were killed during WWII. My great grandfather was a soldier and was killed in 1945. My grandparents also lost some other family members, who were murdered by the SS in 1941. Their whole village was destroyed. If your family members were threatened or killed, would you feel different?

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Killing in retaliation for killing does not bring peace.

I'm sure someone famous said this -- violence is never a good solution, but sometimes it's the only solution. During World War II, there was no other way to stop Hitler. There were even officers in his own army who tried to kill him.

Originally Posted by Tasaio

No, I would not kill Nazis. Nor would I serve in a non-combat role.

Re: Nazis

By "Nazis" I assume you're referring to German soldiers serving under Hitler. I should point out that not all soldiers knew about the Holocaust--many probably hated Hitler, and the war. Have you seen Das Boot?

No I haven't seen Das Boot but I'm very aware of the history of WWII. I do know that there were plots against Hitler by Wehrmacht officers (and a failed bomb attempt), and I'm sure many Wehrmacht soldiers and officers were just doing their duty. For instance Erwin Rommel was in my opinion not a Nazi but just a General. He wasn't very fond of Hitler and although he didn't take part in the assassination attempt, he did know about it and his name was in the plotters' documents. He was forced by Hitler to commit suicide to save his family (and thus Hitler killed his best General who could've possibly stopped the allied Normandy invasion).

Anyway, the point is that these people did fight for the Nazi regime. Even if they were just tools of the regime they were still making it possible. It would be very unfortunate to kill people that weren't complicit in the regime's crimes and philosophy, but it was the only way to end the war. Actually I used to think that Wehrmacht wasn't involved in atrocities. I thought only SS was responsible for that. But recently I read that Wehrmacht units were in fact involved. However on the whole they were much more like normal soldiers compared to the SS. The SS headed by Heinrich Himmler organized the entire Holocaust and committed the worst atrocities during WWII.

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Americans committed atrocities in Vietnam, too. John Kerry was one such veteran. Many non-Americans felt then (as they do now) that the US has committed acts on par with the Nazis.

I don't know if anything can compare with what the Nazis did, but I'm certainly not defending Vietnam and as I said already I would not want to serve in that war or the current Iraq war. There's a big difference between WWII and those wars. Vietnam was a proxy war between the US and Soviet Union, much like the Korean War (although that's probably the only one of those wars that was worthwhile even though the casualties were unacceptable) and Afghanistan in 1979-89. Current Iraq war is.. I don't even know what. War for better oil prices?

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Re: non-combat roles

Call it what you will, you're still being conscripted. Contrary to what others believe, the government does not own you, and you are not obligated to put your life on the line.

I find it irritating when people imply you aren't "serving your country" if you avoid conscription. Why is military service worth any more than other contributions to society?

I do think that it's not really necessary in the modern age due to the technology we have. However, something to think about is that one of the biggest reasons for the Roman Empire's collapse is that Roman citizens became complacent and handed off defending the empire to mercenaries (originally, you had to be a citizen to serve in the army which makes a lot of sense). If people stop signing up voluntarily (and they shouldn't unless the pay starts getting non-competitive), we'll end up with the same problem and a draft will be required again.

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Conscription is odd in that it treats everyone as equal--but we all know that's not the case. Some people are more suited than others for military service.

I agree, and that's why a draft is almost 100% unlikely in the modern day and age. The professional army we have today is very different from what it was 50 years ago, as stated in the article linked to by the OP.

[mlc82]

I also think that conscription would really be a detriment to any professional standing army such as that of the USA. Regular soldiers probably wouldn't want to go into battle with people who didn't want to be there either and I'd think the conscripts would probably cause more problems than they would correct, barring any massive conflict such as the Eastern Front of WWII where conscripts would be needed just to fill gaps in the lines.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

As an American citizen, I live in, arguably, the greatest country that has ever existed.

lol That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Thanks for lighting up my evening!

With all respect, AlmostGone, you're talking about your country and citizen duties exactly like a nazi.

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII? I understand non-violence when possible. But Nazi Germany was killing Jews as fast as it could. Indiscriminately killing men, women, and children who committed the crime of being a Jew.

Yes, Nazi Germany was killing Jews as fast as it could. That doesn't mean that every german soldier was a jew-killing nazi. Most of them were far from that. They were forced to serve anyway, whether they wanted or not. And some of them were just people believing, just exactly like you're doing right now, in defending their country when it's under attack.

So you would have indiscriminately killed everyone who committed the crime of being german? Wow! That's, of course, much better than indiscriminately killing everyone who committed the crime of being a Jew.

I don't think killing people is a solution for anything. I don't agree either that killing people is the only way to stop the killing of people. I don't believe that answering with violence, hate and nationalism will stop violence, hate and nationalism.

It's difficult to predict, while comfortably sitting in an office chair, how I would react in case of war, but my theoretical choice is not to kill anyone and not to support war in any way, not even in a non-combat role.

Baltar, some members of my family also were killed during WWII. But killing to defend your kids in the very moment someone tries to kill them is not the same as randomly killing all people wearing a given uniform to hypothetically prevent them from killing your kids.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

As an American citizen, I live in, arguably, the greatest country that has ever existed.

The funny thing is, citizens of each current world power believe as you believe. When France was one the world's most powerful country - they believed themselves to be better then everyone else. Same as with the British when they were the world power. The way Americans feel about their country now reminds me a lot of how the French and British felt about their countries back in the 1800's. I guess it's a human thing, not an American thing to be so arrogant in that fashion.

With that freedom and opportunity comes an obligation and responsibility. It hasn't happened often, but when America has had a need to call young men to come to her aid, it was need, not want.

You can agree or disagree with this war or that war, but we can't cherry-pick when we'll defend our respective countries.

You have to remember "America" isn't a single entity like a person or an object. It is a collection of people who live in a particular piece of land. The ones who decide whether we go to war are those who've gained the most power - the top politicians. These politicians oftentimes make mistakes and worst, have hidden agenda. This blind devotion in you to blindly follow our politicians when they decide to declare war on a foreign country is a very dangerous thing indeed. That's what allowed the Nazi to do so well in Germany.

To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly.

To follow the government and everyone else blindly is cowardly. It is in opposing the massive force of the government and following your own principles by refusing to be drafted, that is very courageous.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

You said: "I find it interesting that you possess the compassion you claim. If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII?" That's what I was responding to.

I just wouldn't kill anyone. If they want to kill me, they have to bear the karma. I'm not going to pick up a gun and go hunt a human who is not directly threatening me in the moment. That's murder. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I mentioned, I think twice, that I would use deadly force in a self-defense situation if someone was about to kill my kids or husband or myself.

Now, as to the underlying question which I think is really, "Can we stand idly by while men commit evil acts?" Then my answer would be no. I wouldn't ignore what was happening. I just wouldn't use a gun to solve the problem.

As we speak, there is carnage and genocide of biblical proportions happening in various spots around the world. When men are hellbent on mass extermination of their fellow man, what do you propose to do to stop it? The men are killed, the women raped, all for sport. Somehow I don't think love and kindness are the answer.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

As we speak, there is carnage and genocide of biblical proportions happening in various spots around the world. When men are hellbent on mass extermination of their fellow man, what do you propose to do to stop it? The men are killed, the women raped, all for sport. Somehow I don't think love and kindness are the answer.

This is a different issue from the draft. When the U.S. was exterminating various Native American tribes back in the 1800s, would the best thing have been to have a foreign country invade and start killing Americans and occupy America with an iron fist?

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by seeker5

The funny thing is, citizens of each current world power believe as you believe. When France was one the world's most powerful country - they believed themselves to be better then everyone else. Same as with the British when they were the world power. The way Americans feel about their country now reminds me a lot of how the French and British felt about their countries back in the 1800's. I guess it's a human thing, not an American thing to be so arrogant in that fashion.

I honestly don't believe Americans to be better then others. I've actually lost a lot of respect for my fellow citizens. Any number of countries have a more robust voter participation. That says a lot about us, unfortunately.

You have to remember "America" isn't a single entity like a person or an object. It is a collection of people who live in a particular piece of land. The ones who decide whether we go to war are those who've gained the most power - the top politicians. These politicians oftentimes make mistakes and worst, have hidden agenda. This blind devotion in you to blindly follow our politicians when they decide to declare war on a foreign country is a very dangerous thing indeed. That's what allowed the Nazi to do so well in Germany.

I beg to differ. Well at least we use to be a single entity. We are fragmenting so badly today, I wonder if this country will survive.

The politicians haven't gained power, the American people have given it to them. You might think thats a matter of semantics, but there's a huge difference. My next point could be applied to any democratically elected government. We choose our elected leaders. My guy might not get elected, but I have a vote so I do have a say who our leaders are. Once these leaders are chosen, their job is to lead until new leaders are chosen. If I'm not happy with them, I cast my vote for someone else next time. But to rebel against every decision a leader makes because some don't like it is nothing but anarchy.