Conscription and...the draft

[Tasaio]

Are You Going to be Drafted?

I should preface this by saying that I do not believe conscription will be implemented in the US, nor in Canada.

But, let's suppose it was. What would you do in such a situation?

In particular, I would like to hear what Steve and Erin think about conscription in general.

[ticktockclok]

I don't think a draft will be enacted. But if it was, I'd probably flee to Canada.

[Baltar]

I wouldn't worry about a draft simply because it's not practical (in my opinion it can only happen if the US gets invaded). However, fleeing to Canada may not be possible anymore. They've recently rejected asylum for two US deserters. Of course, these soldiers weren't drafted so this may have influenced the decision.

[Tonezone]

I'm not worried. If they enacted it next year, I would be 23 which means I have at least four years worth of people that would be drafted before me since it usually goes ages 19, then 20, then 21, then 22, etc. etc. as needed.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by Baltar

I wouldn't worry about a draft simply because it's not practical (in my opinion it can only happen if the US gets invaded). However, fleeing to Canada may not be possible anymore. They've recently rejected asylum for two US deserters. Of course, these soldiers weren't drafted so this may have influenced the decision.

Don't worry about Canada. We (or rather, 36%) recently elected an extreme right-wing government. I voted against them.

But they're on their way out. Recent financial scandals--more than one, in fact--are coming to light.

In any case, two of three political parties support the war deserters. As soon as Harper and his cronies are thrown out, the deserters will be more than welcome in Canada.

[Lil Chris]

It'll be hard to flee when Canada the US and Mexico merge into one country, similar to what Europe did...

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Are You Going to be Drafted?

But, let's suppose it was. What would you do in such a situation?

I've thought about this. If it's an offensive war, or a war fought on someone else's soil, I'll refuse to be drafted because I don't believe in the wars we've been fighting. I'd either go to jail, or move to another country, but I'm not going to allow politicians to force me to kill people whom I don't want to kill.

I'm opposed to a draft in the first place anyway philosophically. People aren't resources for a nation to use at its will, at least a true free people. If people care about defending their nation against invasion, then they'll join up and fight voluntarily. The American Revolution is a prime example of that - fighting against the most powerful empire in the world, fighting against invasion of troops who came to restore British power over their colonies. During the Revolution, Congress did not draft a single person. Every "American" who fought against the British did so willingly. Yet the revolutionairies won against the most powerful empire on Earth at the time.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

It'll be hard to flee when Canada the US and Mexico merge into one country, similar to what Europe did...

The US is welcome to join Canada anytime. Just leave the guns at the border.

[Erin Pavlina]

I'm a woman so I don't know if this applies. Do they draft women?

Anyway, bottom line for me is I would never pick up a weapon and use it against an innocent human being. And before anyone nitpicks that, I would kill someone who was threatening to kill my children. But if we keep this to just war, then no way. I would go to another country if that was an option, or find another way to avoid it.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I'm a woman so I don't know if this applies. Do they draft women?

I think they do in Israel.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

And before anyone nitpicks that, I would kill someone who was threatening to kill my children.

Same here, I'd kill anyone who threatens my life or those of my loved ones around me.

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

It'll be hard to flee when Canada the US and Mexico merge into one country, similar to what Europe did...

That's not going to happen for many reasons.

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I'm a woman so I don't know if this applies. Do they draft women?

I believe any new draft legislation in the US would be required to include both men and women. What percentage of women would have to serve in combat units though is another story (the military has many different jobs for soldiers other than combat).

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Anyway, bottom line for me is I would never pick up a weapon and use it against an innocent human being.

Well that's a can of worms. Would you kill Nazi soldiers during World War II? I would. But I wouldn't want to fight in Vietnam or Iraq. Would you serve if you didn't have to kill people (as a cook, engineer, driver, etc.)?

[Erin Pavlina]

I would be willing to serve in a capacity to support the troops in making their life easier but if it was a war I totally disagreed with than I would avoid that if I could.

And no I wouldn't kill Nazi's during WWII either. And yes, even though I'm jewish.

[openeyes]

Were it an option, I'd take it as a great opportunity to move to Canada or Sweden. If they weren't drafting anyone, France or the Netherlands would also be quite attractive.

If I were rounded up and brought in to enlist before leaving the US, I'd make full use of homosexuals not being allowed in, refuse to wear clothing, and make advances at all the male higher ups (I might start off easy at first to keep from being arrested, just saying I would have sex with men, and then being more wild if that wasn't enough). Even if gays were waived in, my sanity would likely be seriously in question

For Vietnam my dad was too big and an uncle was too skinny to be forced in.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by seeker5

I've thought about this. If it's an offensive war, or a war fought on someone else's soil, I'll refuse to be drafted because I don't believe in the wars we've been fighting. I'd either go to jail, or move to another country, but I'm not going to allow politicians to force me to kill people whom I don't want to kill.

I'm opposed to a draft in the first place anyway philosophically. People aren't resources for a nation to use at its will, at least a true free people. If people care about defending their nation against invasion, then they'll join up and fight voluntarily. The American Revolution isa prime example of that - fighting against the most powerful empire in the world, fighting against invasion of troops who came to restore British power over their colonies. During the Revolution, Congress did not draft a single person. Every "American" who fought against the British did so willingly. Yet the revolutionairies won against the most powerful empire on Earth at the time.

I agree. We don't draft people to be firemen or policemen. Why is it acceptable to draft people for the military?

Conscription is illegal in Australia. Hopefully, Canada will follow suit when the Liberal party is reelected.

I think making conscription illegal is a good start to keeping warmongering leaders in check. If they have a finite number of troops, they'll be much more careful about where--and how--they go to war. They'll be much more likely to work with the UN to achieve overwhelming military force.

Well that's a can of worms. Would you kill Nazi soldiers during World War II? I would. But I wouldn't want to fight in Vietnam or Iraq. Would you serve if you didn't have to kill people (as a cook, engineer, driver, etc.)?

No, I would not kill Nazis. Nor would I serve in a non-combat role.

Re: Nazis

By "Nazis" I assume you're referring to German soldiers serving under Hitler. I should point out that not all soldiers knew about the Holocaust--many probably hated Hitler, and the war. Have you seen Das Boot?

Americans committed atrocities in Vietnam, too. John Kerry was one such veteran. Many non-Americans felt then (as they do now) that the US has committed acts on par with the Nazis.

If you're referring specifically to those running death camps...well, that depends.

If I was a Jewish prisoner, then yes, I would kill a Nazi captor.

If living in an Allied country, I would avoid service for the reasons above. I do not agree with conscription.

Lastly if I was a German soldier, conscripted, I'm not sure what I'd do. How would you react, upon discovering that your government set up death camps?

Re: non-combat roles

Call it what you will, you're still being conscripted. Contrary to what others believe, the government does not own you, and you are not obligated to put your life on the line.

I find it irritating when people imply you aren't "serving your country" if you avoid conscription. Why is military service worth any more than other contributions to society?

Conscription is odd in that it treats everyone as equal--but we all know that's not the case. Some people are more suited than others for military service.

[hymalaia]

If I was drafted I'd play the disability card. I have a psychotic break on my medical record due to being given bad medications. Granted that was 12 years ago but I don't think the military wants to take on that kind of risk. Frankly that'd be a smart move on their part. If they put a gun in my hand and told me what to do, I'd have a hard time not pulling a Gomer Pyle on my commanding officer... Which is my answer to what I'd do if they "forced" me to serve aka the Russians or Nazi's in WW2.

[AlmostGone]

As an American citizen, I live in, arguably, the greatest country that has ever existed. There is freedom and opportunity to achieve whatever you can dream. With that freedom and opportunity comes an obligation and responsibility. It hasn't happened often, but when America has had a need to call young men to come to her aid, it was need, not want.

You can agree or disagree with this war or that war, but we can't cherry-pick when we'll defend our respective countries. Personally, if I knew I wouldn't step up when called to defend my country, I'd have the honor to leave before being called. To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly.

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

As an American citizen, I live in, arguably, the greatest country that has ever existed. There is freedom and opportunity to achieve whatever you can dream. With that freedom and opportunity comes an obligation and responsibility. It hasn't happened often, but when America has had a need to call young men to come to her aid, it was need, not want.

You can agree or disagree with this war or that war, but we can't cherry-pick when we'll defend our respective countries. Personally, if I knew I wouldn't step up when called to defend my country, I'd have the honor to leave before being called. To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly.

Written like a true 1930s recruitment ad.

You sound younger than 18, so I'll explain why you're wrong. America is not the greatest country to have ever existed. Far from it, now. Your big talk is evidence of its weak education system.

Try reading "Freedom Under Siege" by Congressman Ron Paul--a man who, incidentally, I'm at odds with on other political issues. You mentioned the freedom to be whatever you want--an essential part of that freedom is the choice to refuse military service. America was founded by people trying to get away from governments running their lives.

I suggest that you speak with people that have actually served--in real wars, not training exercises. Forget everything the WW2 recreationists and weekend warriors tell you. Those make-believe soldiers are what I call "cowards".

I, for one, have family members who lived through--and served in--WW2.

You'll be surprised to learn that military service isn't everything it's made out to be. The Nazis, for instance, said nothing of the death camps they were running. The story sold to the German people was that they were "under attack".

The sad truth is that your response could very well belong to a young man living in Germany during WW2. Hopefully, as you take some high school history courses, you'll expand your horizons outside of Fox News, and learn how your great country works.

And if you are old enough to serve, then I must ask why you aren't in the military right now. How can you enjoy the benefits of citizenship, when your military has need of young men like yourself?

"To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly."

If you're old enough to defend it, then take your own advice. Go to Iraq and lend a hand.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I would be willing to serve in a capacity to support the troops in making their life easier but if it was a war I totally disagreed with than I would avoid that if I could.

And no I wouldn't kill Nazi's during WWII either. And yes, even though I'm jewish.

I find it interesting that you possess the compassion you claim. If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII? I understand non-violence when possible. But Nazi Germany was killing Jews as fast as it could. Indiscriminately killing men, women, and children who committed the crime of being a Jew.

Do you not acknowledge the existence of evil? I don't think the millions of your faith who were slaughtered like livestock were victims of some misunderstanding. They saw the face of evil, the Nazis of 20th century Germany.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

Written like a true 1930s recruitment ad.

You sound younger than 18, so I'll explain why you're wrong. America is not the greatest country to have ever existed. Far from it, now. Your big talk is evidence of its weak education system.

Try reading "Freedom Under Siege" by Congressman Ron Paul--a man who, incidentally, I'm at odds with on other political issues. You mentioned the freedom to be whatever you want--an essential part of that freedom is the choice to refuse military service. America was founded by people trying to get away from governments running their lives.

I suggest that you speak with people that have actually served--in real wars, not training exercises. Forget everything the WW2 recreationists and weekend warriors tell you. Those make-believe soldiers are what I call "cowards".

I, for one, have family members who lived through--and served in--WW2.

You'll be surprised to learn that military service isn't everything it's made out to be. The Nazis, for instance, said nothing of the death camps they were running. The story sold to the German people was that they were "under attack".

The sad truth is that your response could very well belong to a young man living in Germany during WW2. Hopefully, as you take some high school history courses, you'll expand your horizons outside of Fox News, and learn how your great country works.

And if you are old enough to serve, then I must ask why you aren't in the military right now. How can you enjoy the benefits of citizenship, when your military has need of young men like yourself?

"To enjoy the benefits of being a citizen and then refusing to defend it, would be cowardly."

If you're old enough to defend it, then take your own advice. Go to Iraq and lend a hand.

Thank you for the "You sound younger than 18,...". That was a lifetime ago. As far as talking to people who've seen war, I have. Some still alive, some just names on a wall. I have served and at my age I don't think I'm a viable candidate for service again.

My worldview is not a result of Fox News or MSNBC or CNN. It's a product of watching and learning over many, many years.

Whatever you may think, I stand by my previous post.

On edit: The 30's were before my time, but I think it's safe to say, recruitment ads were probably few and far between. One question: Is the anonymity the Internet offers, the reason people feel free to be rude and obnoxious to people who have different views? If you happen to be taking any high school courses , don't take a course in debate. The grade would really hurt your GPA.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by AlmostGone

I find it interesting that you possess the compassion you claim. If I may ask, why wouldn't you kill Nazis during WWII? I understand non-violence when possible. But Nazi Germany was killing Jews as fast as it could. Indiscriminately killing men, women, and children who committed the crime of being a Jew.

Do you not acknowledge the existence of evil? I don't think the millions of your faith who were slaughtered like livestock were victims of some misunderstanding. They saw the face of evil, the Nazis of 20th century Germany.

Men are not evil, though they may commit evil acts. There is humanity in everyone. Yes, even killers. Doesn't mean I condone killing, but I would never say a person is evil because that would be incorrect.

You're saying that I am not compassionate if I refuse to kill people? Wow, that's a new one. Not sure I can wrap my head around it.

Killing in retaliation for killing does not bring peace. How does that saying go? "Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity." You can't fix the problem by becoming part of it.

Oh there's another bumper sticker I love. "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" And yeah, I oppose the death penalty. Here is my take on that:

Why I Deplore the Death Penalty

[mlc82]

I would fight to the death to defend my family, friends, or home. I would not be willing to kill others in a foreign land for the purpose of benefitting a relatively few number of people in top government positions/businesses, while myself or most of the rest of the country's population didn't benefit from it all.

[AlmostGone]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina