should be under "Keeping perspective when you have a really really big problem"

[rondon]

Hi Steve!

First of all, thanks very much for your freebies. I know you don't find this kinda feedback useful anymore, just wanted to mention it.

Also - I wanted to ask you about something. I am going through one hell of a horrendous heart-wrenching breakup...

I remember reading your article about "Keeping perspective when you have a big problem" To mods - feel free to move this article where you see fit...

... but i just wanted to ask steve personally...

How'd you do it in your marriage? Were the "love feelings" always there? Did there come a time when you "lost" the feeling of "love", but chose to stay with Erin, i.e. choosing to love her?

I ask because right now, I'm hurting. I know we're only these bits of insignificant dust. But ... can't I choose to love a girl? Even if the feeling is gone? I want to. But she won't. She doesn't want that. She's comparing it to what she already seen with her parents. She's madly in love - but me...I'm this pathetic wreck who can't say honestly "i love you", at least not "with feelings"...

I'm wiling to do all sorts of things for her - make sacrifices, etc. Who NEEDS the damn feelings? I once had them, chose to love her, then lost the feeling. Isn't that a valid kind of love?

Thank you for any feedback you can give. Know you're busy. I also want to hear other people's views as well. Though its to late, we decided to "move on", though I want to give her chase. I just want this doubt to be gone in my heart first... i don't know...

Help?

[Zukin]

I've never been married, so feel free to take this advice with a grain of salt, but the books by Dr. John Gottman do a great job of explaining the dynamics of marriage & love (and lots of married people seem to agree according to the reviews on Amazon.com)

Amazon.com: Why Marriages Succeed or Fail: And How You Can Make Yours Last: Books: John Gottman

Amazon.com: The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work: A Practical Guide from the Country's Foremost Relationship Expert: Books: John M. Gottman,Nan Silver

Amazon.com: The Relationship Cure: A 5 Step Guide to Strengthening Your Marriage, Family, and Friendships: Books: John Gottman

Maybe the books will help.

There's also some married people on the forums. Speak up, folks!

[TheQ]

mr. rondon, you are not a pathetic wreck. but you might have some personal soul searching to do. i was on the other end of your situation, in that i was with someone who i loved very much and he, well, he wanted to love me. he said he loved me, but it was clear he did not have the 'romantic love/adoration/connection/bond' whatever you want to call it. he sort of loved me intellectually and logically. but we got on perfectly in so many other regards that i really wanted to make it work, so i stuck it out hoping the love would come. ten years later i left that relationship feeling like my entire life force had been sucked out of me. i had no self esteem, no confidence in myself as a woman, i felt unattractive, unwanted. it took me a good long time to recover. even though he never 'did' anything to be but not have those feelings for me, the situation was like a vacuum, my feelings flooding out to him and no response coming back. it was painful, and it slowly sapped me of my excitement about love and my own selfworth.

now i don't know if it was me, or if he was just incapable of having those feelings at all. i'm not even sure that he might not be a deeply repressed gay man. (i am not implying this about you!) anyway, he never could give me an answer and so i will never have an answer and that hurts too.

so i would say, go deep and figure out what the answer is for you. are you capable of these feelings but honestly don't have them for her. if so do her a favor and don't fight for her because she will suffer that void. maybe you really just aren't ready to feel that connected emotionally to someone, and if so, that's okay. or if you think maybe you have some kind of block and haven't been able to access those feelings for anyone, then maybe you can work on that, and there will be a chance for you and her at some future point. maybe if she is willing you can work on it together. (and it will be work!) i think the key is total emotional honesty with yourself and with her.

i can't tell you how much it would have meant to me if my ex could have just been honest with me about what he was feeling. yes, it would have ended our relationship many years sooner, but i think we could have been friends, and it would have spared me so much pain. good luck!

[Angela]

What is this feeling you say you've lost? Was it the crazy-in-love lusty feeling that your gf still feels and misses from you? Or what? It sounds like you do, indeed, love this woman, but you're not willing to call anything "love" unless it fits that narrow definition -- what you once had but don't anymore. Is that true? Or have I misread you?

[Savage]

If I fell out of love with someone, I wouldn't pretend to love them. That just won't work. Instead I'd do a gut check and would probably realize that what I really want is not what I currently have. Maybe my true desire is to have a different kind of relationship with the same person, a new relationship with someone else, or maybe just to spend more time alone and re-connect with myself.

I suspect the truth is that you do not want the relationship you have. Either the person you're with or the current form of your relationship isn't a match for you. You want something better or different, and you may or may not be aware of what that is. Until you come to terms with it and acknowledge your true desires, those feelings of emptiness will only grow stronger.

Earlier today I wrote on article on feelings that you may find helpful. I'll probably post it later this week.

[rondon]

Hi,

Thanks VERY much for all the input so far.

Right now... i'm aiming for the "let's be friends" state. From what I gather, she _seems_ ok with it (though I'm not 100% sure, I'm not _that_ intuitive yet). I don't want to kick her out of my life, she's a good friend. And I really care deeply for her. But, not as lovers, or... yeah, I need to further explore what love really means first before I can say "i Love you" to anyone.

I'm seeing her in a few days... she herself suggested that I go there "as friends", and that's what I'll be, for now...

@ Zukin,

Thanks! I'll check out his site / articles as soon as I can.

@ TheQ,

Wow - your situation almost matches mine. In my case, she's very intuitive herself, and kind of tested me every step of the way to see what I was really feeling. Me, I wanted to be honest, but also wanted to be "polite" (which I think complicated things). Last time I chatted with her, she too "fell out of love". That hurt! I mean, intellectually, I kinda saw where things were going, but, emotionally...

I was afraid of saying "its over", probably because 1) I don't want a "good catch" to slip me by and 2) a part of me didn't want her to break down and blame herself for the "failed" relation.

As for the soul-searching, that... I have a lot of those to do.

@ Angela,

I couldn't put it exactly what "feeling" I lost. I was initially attracted to her. We started talking and enjoying ourselves. It got to the point where we were so comfortable with each other. Me, I kinda felt exactly that - comfortable. I wasn't having those "butterfly stomach" anymore. So, when she asked me if I loved her, I thought about those feelings. I was definitely _not_ feeling head-over-heels over her anymore, but still wanted to be with her. And, I dunno if this is helpful, it also got to the point where I was "running out of stories to tell".

@ Steve,

Looking forward to that article. And thanks for your feedback. Seems going to the "lovers" stage in just a few months felt a bit off to me, and I now think I have a lot of self-work to do. Though I still cared for her.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rondon

I couldn't put it exactly what "feeling" I lost. I was initially attracted to her. We started talking and enjoying ourselves. It got to the point where we were so comfortable with each other. Me, I kinda felt exactly that - comfortable. I wasn't having those "butterfly stomach" anymore. So, when she asked me if I loved her, I thought about those feelings. I was definitely _not_ feeling head-over-heels over her anymore, but still wanted to be with her.

I was going to say that if you once had the lust, you can generate it again, and if it was never there it probably never will be. I was going to say: comfortable is a great thing to be with someone, and that the butterflies come and go and are not necessary to a great relationship.

But reading through your posts, I don't get the sense that you have any strong feelings for her at all, except maybe hurt pride, unwillingness to cause her grief, and a vague sense that you might be letting something wonderful slip through your fingers - maybe.

You haven't said anything at all in these posts that indicates you think she's special to you, or that you're looking for anything special about her. Maybe you are doing that and you just didn't say anything about it in your posts -- but in my experience here, people tend to say (and not say) the important things about their issue in their first couple of posts, and your issue sounds like it's that you haven't given yourself a chance to really throw yourself into generating love and finding out what it is. You could give that a go with this girl, except that women often won't give you a second chance once they feel thrown over. This one might just be played out, romantic partnership wise. It's possible you'll see that you really did love this girl, but only in retrospect. That happens a lot!

I hope you are aware that you have the power to generate big, generous, sloppy, grateful love in your life whenever you want to. I hope you do that! And I hope that you accept the hurting that you're doing now and get through to the other side of it feeling powerful and creative about love.

best wishes to you.

p.s...I just read the other thread you started... sure enough, it does look like the relationship issue you have is with yourself, not with this or any other woman. It looks like you have some pretty major nurturing and love to do for yourself first. I don't think your girlfriend would be surprised to hear that -- I think she would probably love for you to make creating a life you love a priority.

[rondon]

Originally Posted by Angela

I was going to say that if you once had the lust, you can generate it again, and if it was never there it probably never will be. I was going to say: comfortable is a great thing to be with someone, and that the butterflies come and go and are not necessary to a great relationship.

I think I'll need to discuss with her further what feeling she was actually referring to. For sure, the butterflies _have_ come and gone.

But reading through your posts, I don't get the sense that you have any strong feelings for her at all, except maybe hurt pride, unwillingness to cause her grief, and a vague sense that you might be letting something wonderful slip through your fingers - maybe.

While I did consciously choose to pursue this girl, I did not consciously choose what it is I'm looking for. I sort of went with the flow, going with gut reaction. I felt attracted, pursued, then "lost" the feeling, but I still stayed with her. There was a time I had strong feelings, but it eventually faded and showed up now and then.

Looking back, I think a big part of the relationship was based on exploration (on my part). I wanted to try what it was like. I decided to give it a go. What I didn't do is: decide _exactly_ what kind of relationship, the _exact_ kind of girl, what attributes, etc.

...sounds like it's that you haven't given yourself a chance to really throw yourself into generating love and finding out what it is.

Hmmm - could you elaborate on that?

It's possible you'll see that you really did love this girl, but only in retrospect. That happens a lot!

Love in a sense that I had feelings, willing to do tons of stuff for her, yes, I had those.

I hope you are aware that you have the power to generate big, generous, sloppy, grateful love in your life whenever you want to. I hope you do that! And I hope that you accept the hurting that you're doing now and get through to the other side of it feeling powerful and creative about love.

Thanks. And how may I specifically go through doing that, the generating love part?

p.s...I just read the other thread you started... sure enough, it does look like the relationship issue you have is with yourself, not with this or any other woman. It looks like you have some pretty major nurturing and love to do for yourself first. I don't think your girlfriend would be surprised to hear that -- I think she would probably love for you to make creating a life you love a priority.

I appreciate you checking out my other post. <sigh> As much as I wish that "Love conquers all", I know I still need a lot of self-work.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by rondon

Hmmm - could you elaborate on that?

Thanks. And how may I specifically go through doing that, the generating love part?

A few people have asked me that! You know, I know how to generate love, but I don't know yet how to communicate how to generate love. But I know it is communicatable. I think this is worth my working on, and I will. This might be going in to my book (along with that whole 100% responsibility thang).

Speaking of taking 100% responsibility -- I think that is the prime A-#1 way to start. Take 100% responsibility for your own satisfaction, fulfillment, and happiness in your life. Next: acceptance. Accepting a person exactly as they are and exactly as they are not.

Those two things, if they're present, are the foundations from which all wonderful, mutually beneficial relationships are grown. If those two things are missing, that's when things go all to pot.

Now, I don't know about your relationship with this girl, but it looks to me like those two things (especially acceptance) might be missing from your relationship with yourself. And you know the old saw about how you have to love yourself before you can blah blah blah, right?

I think it's important for you to focus on creating a life for yourself that you love, and allow the right woman (women) to be pulled into the orbit of your beloved life. The woman who will be attracted to you when you don't love your own life is a very different sort of woman that the one who will be attracted to you when you are in love with your own life. You know that, right?

So, this is my question for you (I ask this a lot!): What quality or condition, if it were present in your life, would make a difference to you being love with your own life? I'm not talking about anything that requires action or behavior or even the presence of another human being; I'm talking about a quality or condition that you would be able to have, if you chose to, without requiring anything of anybody else?

[rondon]

Originally Posted by Zukin

I've never been married, so feel free to take this advice with a grain of salt, but the books by Dr. John Gottman do a great job of explaining the dynamics of marriage & love (and lots of married people seem to agree according to the reviews on Amazon.com)

Hey, thanks again. That John Gottman was the divorce-prediction guy in the Blink book.

He also has this great interview, Mathematics of Love:
Edge: THE MATHEMATICS OF LOVE: A Talk with John Gottman