Subjective Reality vs. Solipsism (Blog)

[Steve Pavlina]

Use this thread to discuss the following entry from Steve Pavlina's blog:

Subjective Reality vs. Solipsism

[ethereal]

Thank you so so so much for this article It helped cleared up so many things for me, and for many other readers I bet.

I agree that it's a hard switch to make -- you have to know where to "look" to see into that SR lens. For me, it's kind of feels like falling backwards, into the Witness Consciousness that is allowing this whole drama of the world to take place. The consciousness that is watching everything if you kick your ego out of the way, when you pretend that your mind and body isn't even there.

Another way to perhaps see into it is when you drop all thought/mentalization, and see everything without labels, without objectifying things. To see things as they are, without your mind there to think about it.

What seems to really help for me slip into that state, is to see an object, and then pretend that my body-mind wasn't there to observe it -- what awareness is left? Then try applying it to your own body-mind, pretend you aren't there to be aware of yourself. It's an interesting experience

I think this is what the zen koan, "if a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?" is referring to

Would love to hear other people's stories and techniques on how to see through SR.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by ethereal

What seems to really help for me slip into that state, is to see an object, and then pretend that my body-mind wasn't there to observe it -- what awareness is left? Then try applying it to your own body-mind, pretend you aren't there to be aware of yourself. It's an interesting experience

That's an awesome way of thinking about it IMO. There are many paths that can take us there, but the key element is being able to release the ego perspective at some point. The ego can take us as far as solipsism, but that's where it gets stuck.

Letting go of our ego identities can be both terrifying and fascinating at the same time, but when that part of the dream story starts to unfold, it's really hard not to turn the next page, if for no other reason that sheer curiosity.

[cdn2wheeler]

Steve, I'd like you to take a quick look at something for me. See this thread, specifically post 11 regarding subjective/objective reality.

[Michael Chui]

Allegory of the Cave, much?

[Jesse E]

Very cool post and it clears things up a lot.

One thing I disagree with though is the last section. How is subjective reality any more accurate than any other lens?

Isn't believing in objective reality just as accurate as believing in subjective?

Because after all, there's not any real way for us to know the true nature of consciousness, so it's more a personal preference rather than a choice based on accuracy.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Jesse E

Isn't believing in objective reality just as accurate as believing in subjective?

Not believing in subjective reality is less accurate than believing in it.

[Jesse E]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Not believing in subjective reality is less accurate than believing in it.

Why?

There's no possible way to show whether or not subjective reality is the true nature of reality, therefore it's equally accurate to either believe in it or to not believe in it.

[songwriter]

Or The Matrix.
Neo first don't "dreams lucid while awake"... till... he starts to believe after the Morpheus talk (The Red Pill) and he alters the wall... then into the Future World... he fights into the simulators and fails the big jump... then he starts to master it... then he becomes better and better... till he's able to fly and such... that's the end of Matrix 1.

The very fun thing that many people realizes is that continues in Matrix 2. When he touches the Squids without fear (Because "There's no Squids" ), they vanish away. He gives life to Trinity just because he thinks it's possible to do it.

And then comes Matrix 3. The harder to understand.... He has freed his mind such... that notices that "The Real World" is like The Matrix too... or like a lucid dream... he can alter all the laws. He's blind but he can see. And he notices that the "threating machines" are shining gold creatures... or maybe he just... alters it... he mades them friendly instead of dangerous. He believes in love instead of hate, so his Spirit don't fight back to him (the 300000 squids and such). And he ends just wanting "Peace" believing it can happen and "Let there Peace". The Spirit don't fight back cause he's in peace with himself...

He's the one... but there are more people. He's the one because he has the hability to master subjective reality more than any other. Sometimes he doubts a lot he's "the one" or that he's been able to "lucid dream awake" but he keeps trying anyway... mostly for Love or Gratitude for Morpheo or Trinity.
Trinity has some "the one-powers too"... he refuses to admit Neo is dead and she kisses him to resurrection. Like Neo Refuses to die in front of the Smith and then sees the Matrix as green codes and nothing more that he can alter.

Neo refuses the war is gonna destroy all the humans... and seen the things as they really are, open to manipulation in the very end of Matrix Revolutions too.

"You are God"... and everyone's God too. Some more than others... for me "subjective reality" are confusing words. :-/ I would say "mentally changeable universe".

Very big words I know.

[Steve Pavlina]

Coincidentally (or not?), the title of the next post is "Accuracy." That post addresses the accuracy issue in terms of subjective vs. objective reality. It's queued to post in about 10 hours.

[impaul99]

To me, if subjective reality is explained from the point of view of there actually being 7 Billion people on a planet called earth, and yes at some spiritual level of energy they are connected to one consciousness, this version of "subjective reality" means nothing to me.

For some reason I think I'm the only ONE.

Think about lucid dreams. Do we have dreams with other people in them? Like do you go to bed and have a dream with your wife in it and then you wake up and your wife shared that dream with you? NO. It was just you. The other characters were "fake".

I think realite is more like that.

I have had lucid dreams that were so real and the people inside the dreams seemed SOOOOO REALLLLL , even though I knew damn well that they were fake figments of my imagination. They talked to me, seemed to have their own agendas, conversations, even had their own little ego's. They sometimes want to hurt me, take something away from me, other times they want to help me, teach me, or whatever. Even when I *KNOW* it's a lucid dream, they continue to exist. Yet, when I wake up they disappear.

That's what I think life is like. I don't know how else to explain it.

[Steve Pavlina]

@Paul: You're basically describing solipsism. And that's fine... nothing wrong with that at all. But here's a suggestion as to how to get from there to the perspective of subjective reality.

These directions may sound a bit strange, but it's the nature of the beast.

1. Consider that you may in fact be just as fake as the other dream characters. You're all just phony projections, and none of you are real. Consider this both for your dreams and your waking reality.
2. Now consider that the other characters may be just as real, conscious, and independent as you are, both while you're dreaming and awake.
3. Finally, consider that both possibilities can exist simultaneously without being in conflict, both in the dream world and the waking world. Each is simply a lower order projection of a higher order, multi-dimensional reality.

[Jesse E]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Coincidentally (or not?), the title of the next post is "Accuracy." That post addresses the accuracy issue in terms of subjective vs. objective reality. It's queued to post in about 10 hours.

Cool, looking forward to it .

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

@Paul: You're basically describing solipsism. And that's fine... nothing wrong with that at all. But here's a suggestion as to how to get from there to the perspective of subjective reality.

These directions may sound a bit strange, but it's the nature of the beast.

1. Consider that you may in fact be just as fake as the other dream characters. You're all just phony projections, and none of you are real. Consider this both for your dreams and your waking reality.
2. Now consider that the other characters may be just as real, conscious, and independent as you are, both while you're dreaming and awake.
3. Finally, consider that both possibilities can exist simultaneously without being in conflict, both in the dream world and the waking world. Each is simply a lower order projection of a higher order, multi-dimensional reality.

Would you mean that when I have a lucid dream, the "other characters" are just as real and conscious as me? Or do you mean only in "reality" when I'm awake the "others" are real, but in my lucid dreams they are not?

What I don't get is if my ego (Paul) can have a dream, and inside that dream the other characters are capable of acting totally convincingly like other people each with their own agenda's, yet are all just projections of my Paul ego, why couldn't all of life be like that?

Why can YOU and everyone not just be a projection of my ego? I've had times when I thought of writing a PD article, and then I get on my computer, go to your site and you've already written that article a few hours earlier. I've had times when I solve an issue in my life and in a weird way all the people around me have kind of solved that same issue in their lives too. I've had instances where I come up with a phrase or saying, such as "Manifestation without Devastation" and I think of that phrase, and then I don't say it to anyone and they say the exact same phrase to me.

It's like there are all these little hints that I keep seeing that others are actually just me. Almost like "different versions" of me.

I have no doubt that at the primal level, my ego is fake. I am just a "single-misguided thought" trying to return to truth, however I think that MY ego is the ONLY ego, perhaps projected onto many many multiple characters, but ONLY experienced through this one EGO named PAUL in this very moment. I cannot experience consciousness from any other EGO's out there, including you, or anyone else on this forum or the other 7 billion people out there, so I can only assume that I am the only conscious one.

Sure, in the next nano-second maybe Paul VWOOPS out of existance to be replaced with Steve Pavlina and I experience this forum from your point of view or someone else, but then I would only experience consciousness from your point of view ONLY and Paul would no longer exist but the next moment he might exist again. It is only the fact that me as consciousness doesn't take my memories with me when I travel from Steve to Paul and back that the illusion is that there is more than 1 of me.

Maybe we're saying the same thing. ???

Here's a question. If I get on an airplane, fly down to vegas to see you, and I sit in your living room and we have an arm wrestle. I would experience that arm wrestle only from my point of view. Are you saying that there would be two consciousnesses in that room arm wrestling at that time? Or are you saying that 1 consciousness would be arm wrestling with itself using 2 avatars?

And if it is 1 consciousness experiencing itself through 2 avatars, would the purpose of that be simply so that it can experience what it's like to be both the person that wins and the person that loses the arm wrestle?

If so, as consciousness version Paul wouldn't it be in the best interest of ALL consciousness for Paul to be as selfish as possible - in this particular case to try to win the armwrestle, so that consciousness ALL could experience winning? Or would it become pointless because whether Paul wins or Steve wins, consciousness ALL experiences both a win/loss at the same time?

I dont' know. I just keep coming back to the same thing. If I think that there are 7 billion people, my thinking is like "Crap people have a lot of problems out there.". Instead, when I think that *I* am the only Ego out there, when I see someone act negatively I think "What is this person's negativity trying to teach me? Why would I create this example for myself?" and when I see someone angry I seek anger inside me (my ego).

With my SINGLE EGO view, there IS only one ego, MY EGO, and I am 100% responsible for it. Everything I see out there is MY EGO showing itself to itself.

With your MULTIPLE EGO view, there is multiple ego's out there like STEVE EGO and PAUL EGO and we are all one consciousness (egoless) but it's split amongst multiple EGO's. In your example when I see STEVE EGO do something stupid, I don't try to correct it inside me (PAUL EGO), because STEVE EGO is seperate from PAUL EGO.

See how your view of multiple ego's gives away responsibility?

What am I missing?

[Michael Chui]

You're equating ego with consciousness. Steve is not: he's explicitly separating them.

[emf]

"Subjective reality, on the other hand, sees ALL the dream characters (including yours) as equal projections of the outer dreamer, and no character is more or less valid or conscious than any other character; they’re all just projections of a larger consciousness."

Unity?

[Andwan]

Thanks Steve...Once again...I had a question-e-mail that question to you and got an answer from one of your blogs...Subjective Reality is a very hard perspective to comprehend...However, you do make it a lot easier to understand...Thanks

[Tigerlilly]

Interesting. Like all others I guess I've had experiences of seeing myself reflected in thought or feeling in ensuing experiences more than enough times to believe it to be coincidental.

But that doesn't mean that there's just me around. I imagine it like sending out a beacon and the whole responding to it in whatever ways. If you believe that all is God incarnated and connected, having the universe around responding to you seems pretty natural. It's just a question of how aware you are of that fact.

Solipsism on the other hand taken to extremes results in feelings of undiluted horror. I passed through it briefly and it was the worst moments of my life. It's definitely not the path to truth cause only ego could inspire such utter dread and despair.

[munish]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Would you mean that when I have a lucid dream, the "other characters" are just as real and conscious as me? Or do you mean only in "reality" when I'm awake the "others" are real, but in my lucid dreams they are not?
?

I feel you are using objective lens to study subjectivity.That's why these doubts.

Whenver i use logic to understand subjectiviy,i find it difficult to grasp it.

Originally Posted by impaul99

What I don't get is if my ego (Paul) can have a dream, and inside that dream the other characters are capable of acting totally convincingly like other people each with their own agenda's, yet are all just projections of my Paul ego, why couldn't all of life be like that?

Why can YOU and everyone not just be a projection of my ego?


I have no doubt that at the primal level, my ego is fake. I am just a "single-misguided thought" trying to return to truth, however I think that MY ego is the ONLY ego, perhaps projected onto many many multiple characters, but ONLY experienced through this one EGO named PAUL in this very moment. I cannot experience consciousness from any other EGO's out there, including you, or anyone else on this forum or the other 7 billion people out there, so I can only assume that I am the only conscious one.

Sure, in the next nano-second maybe Paul VWOOPS out of existance to be replaced with Steve Pavlina and I experience this forum from your point of view or someone else, but then I would only experience consciousness from your point of view ONLY and Paul would no longer exist but the next moment he might exist again. It is only the fact that me as consciousness doesn't take my memories with me when I travel from Steve to Paul and back that the illusion is that there is more than 1 of me.



Here's a question. If I get on an airplane, fly down to vegas to see you, and I sit in your living room and we have an arm wrestle. I would experience that arm wrestle only from my point of view. Are you saying that there would be two consciousnesses in that room arm wrestling at that time? Or are you saying that 1 consciousness would be arm wrestling with itself using 2 avatars?

And if it is 1 consciousness experiencing itself through 2 avatars, would the purpose of that be simply so that it can experience what it's like to be both the person that wins and the person that loses the arm wrestle?

If so, as consciousness version Paul wouldn't it be in the best interest of ALL consciousness for Paul to be as selfish as possible - in this particular case to try to win the armwrestle, so that consciousness ALL could experience winning? Or would it become pointless because whether Paul wins or Steve wins, consciousness ALL experiences both a win/loss at the same time?

I dont' know. I just keep coming back to the same thing. If I think that there are 7 billion people, my thinking is like "Crap people have a lot of problems out there.". Instead, when I think that *I* am the only Ego out there, when I see someone act negatively I think "What is this person's negativity trying to teach me? Why would I create this example for myself?" and when I see someone angry I seek anger inside me (my ego).

With my SINGLE EGO view, there IS only one ego, MY EGO, and I am 100% responsible for it. Everything I see out there is MY EGO showing itself to itself.

With your MULTIPLE EGO view, there is multiple ego's out there like STEVE EGO and PAUL EGO and we are all one consciousness (egoless) but it's split amongst multiple EGO's. In your example when I see STEVE EGO do something stupid, I don't try to correct it inside me (PAUL EGO), because STEVE EGO is seperate from PAUL EGO.

See how your view of multiple ego's gives away responsibility?

What am I missing?

You are using ego to understand,which is beyond that.Ego is only a perspective,it is an illusion.
Thoughts come from the consciousness,and it is the consciousness which is experiencing, not your ego.

[ExploringTheMatrix]

I thought that the way Steve normally looked at things was that he was the container. Then everything in present moment awareness is you - the sky, the trees, the people, your avatar, etc. That's how most of the gurus describe it, everything around you is a reflection of the beliefs/imagination of the dreamer and the world is an expression of the dreamer's desire to create and share love with others.

So only the dreamer is conscious and has a mind, then he identifies with the avatar and creates a self/other polarity. What your avatar considers your mind is in fact just "the mind" and your consciousness is "the consciousness".

In some sense, all possibilities exist in the now, so you've had countless moments where you were each of the 6 billion human avatars. But that also means you are in an infinite number of dreams, with an infinite number of characters, in an infinite number of universes. Most of those universes we'll never become aware of in this lifetime. I don't see how that helps with our waking dream here on planet Earth since all of those possibilities do and always will exist and we're experiencing just one of those possibilities moment to moment and calling it our life.