Balancing spirituality with being in the world

[ethereal]

I read the other thread "money" in this forum, and I wanted to hear people's insights, experiences, opinions, and advice on this topic.

Is it possible to do both at the same time?

Or is it more about having to fulfill your obligations to the world/family, and if and when you're done you're free to pursue spirituality full-time?

Does it depend on how far along the path you are?

Is it possible to internally renounce everything, while staying in the world? Is it a matter of skill and learning to remain nonattached while engaged?

Like the other poster, I feel no desire to do anything in the world anymore, yet I have the nagging doubt that I need some degree of financial independence before I can seriously commit to spirituality. What do you guys think?

[geekchic9]

Originally Posted by ethereal

I read the other thread "money" in this forum, and I wanted to hear people's insights, experiences, opinions, and advice on this topic.

Is it possible to do both at the same time?

The whole point of this site is to show that doing both simultaneously is possible.

Originally Posted by ethereal

Or is it more about having to fulfill your obligations to the world/family, and if and when you're done you're free to pursue spirituality full-time?

That really doesn't work in my experience, and from what I've read. What Should I Do With My Life? is a great read about that topic.

Originally Posted by ethereal

Does it depend on how far along the path you are?

Not really. You can start today.

Originally Posted by ethereal

Is it possible to internally renounce everything, while staying in the world? Is it a matter of skill and learning to remain nonattached while engaged?

Ask any enlightened Zen monk.

Originally Posted by ethereal

Like the other poster, I feel no desire to do anything in the world anymore, yet I have the nagging doubt that I need some degree of financial independence before I can seriously commit to spirituality. What do you guys think?

Why don't you feel the desire to do something in the world during your brief visit here?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by ethereal

Or is it more about having to fulfill your obligations to the world/family, and if and when you're done you're free to pursue spirituality full-time?

Pursuing spirituallity doesn't mean you stop fulfilling your obligations to the world/family. Just the opposite, I hope. The more spiritual your actions are the more you take care of your world/family.

Does it depend on how far along the path you are?

Is it possible to internally renounce everything, while staying in the world? Is it a matter of skill and learning to remain nonattached while engaged?

I don't think one has to renounce everything. Possesions are like tools along the way and there'sno need to be attached while using them.

Like the other poster, I feel no desire to do anything in the world anymore, yet I have the nagging doubt that I need some degree of financial independence before I can seriously commit to spirituality. What do you guys think?

Hold on, on one hand you are saying "no desire to do anything in the world" but then say you want to be spiritual? Is your version of spirituallity not doing anything in the world?

Why does one need fiancial independence before commiting? I don't see this. It's like thinking, "boy I'm going to take all these classes and yoga and stuff, and that costs money and I need to do all this meditating all day long so I can't be sitting at a job all day". I think that's not the way to go about spirituallity. Let it come into what ever you are already doing. Before enlightenment: chop wood, carry water - after: chop wood, carry water.

[Erki]

In my book, being spiritual means being fully engaged with life and experiencing all of it. Being in a grand love affair with life.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one..

[Zukin]

I think you can do both. There's a good quote from James Arthur Ray that goes something like: "You can be a spiritual person and wear robes and listen to chants, but wouldn't it be more fun to be a spiritual person who wears Armani and listens to U2?"

Osho knew how to do both. Just look at the cover of his book:
Amazon.com: Autobiography of a Spiritually Incorrect Mystic: Books: Osho

[Angela]

Being in the world is a spiritual practice. What's there to balance?

[ericwordelman]

This post actually makes me speechless I've rewrote my reply so many times :-P. Speechless. But the internal experience of meditation is so rich for me that I would rather do it (literally) over anything else in the entire Universe. I know that sounds silly, but I'd rather sit than go make a bunch of money. It's just who I am...Going after these externals is less rewarding than meditation to me. So it only makes sense to do what's most fulfilling. It's common sense. I can have a billion dollars or $0, and it really would make no differene at all for me. I still would just be doing what I want to do.

[Angela]

Eric, in another age or place you would be a holy man! But even holy men have to eat. Maybe you could get a grant or find a sponsor? That would mean a little bit of external seeking, but it could leave you free for doing what you most love in life.

I hope you find what you're looking for.

[Ree]

There is a Zen saying: Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.

The difference is within you.

[ethereal]

Thanks for the replies, all

I'm still trying to figure out what it all means, since I keep coming back to the same questions. Sometimes I totally agree, that being in the world is great and joyful -- and sometimes I just feel so tired of it.

I don't know if its because I'm not trying hard enough, if there's something within me that I'm not facing, or if my dharma isn't meant to be in the world?

Lol, I guess that's something only I can answer... Sorry for dragging my personal problems into this thread. Thanks again for the insights, I think I need to do a lot more inner searching to find out what my path is

[Maguru]

I think I understand the meaning of this quote, i.e it is an internal transformation. I don't see the point in enlightenment if nothing changes in the physical world, unless it's by choice. I want my cake and eat it too.



[QUOTE=Ree;104873]There is a Zen saying: Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water; after enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.

[Ree]

My take on this is that we still have to live in the real world. We need food and shelter and in some cases we have little ones in our lives depending on us for their well being. But I don't think it's an either/or issue.

The path to enlightenment is within us. The change is within us.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Angela

Being in the world is a spiritual practice. What's there to balance?

I suppose one answer is that, at least at the start, we must balance our habitual activities and thoughts with ones that help us reach a more wholesome level.

That is, when we start to meditate it's very difficult to maintain that clarity of mind during our daily life. To do so requires effort, and that takes away effort required to do what we need to do. For example if you're a busy worker, distracted by many tasks you have to keep track of, and stressed by all that effort, it will take effort to reduce that stress. There's only so much effort that can be shared between tasks. And any benefit you gain from 'spiritual' endeavours could be outweighed by the effort required to fit them into your day. Again, at least at the start.

With practice and persistence it becomes easier, but as long as there is a requirement or desire to maintain a lifestyle which requires all one's effort, there could be a need to balance that effort that goes into work with the effort that goes into making that work, and life, more enjoyable/easier.

Of course there's the other option of acknowledging that such a stressful life isn't necessary... Then there's no need for balance (but you'd need to be able to explain to your partner why you suddenly can't afford all the luxuries they're used to).

[Max452]

i have to admit, i sort of hit the same wall not to long ago.

There's an insanely strong voice inside my head that tells me that there is more to this life time then i'm currently able to see.

Reading how dedicated some are i couldn't help feeling like perhaps i wasn't ready to apply myself so fully (i mean i can't afford to just quit work and meditate until i pass that home stretch to bliss) but, when i thought what it was about being spiritual that i loved so much (in others as much in as myself) i realised that it was the appreciation and respect that we all have for this life and all things in it.

Life is for living i say. If you feel comfortable resigning yourself to a temple in the hymilayas then do it

Alternatively, if that option isn't a viable one the best thing you can do is learn to accept this lifetime for what it is and your place within it. Live every moment and fill your spirit with the joy of being alive! (sorry i'm starting to sound airheaded now...)

Anyway, i know this is all easier said then done. in the end its all you can do really is be happy.

Honestly, what other choice do we have?

[wolfgang]

It seems like many have the idea that they have to stop doing what they are doing to be able to do "spiritual" things. Like a having a job interferes with meditating or something. There are lots of techniques for things that are considered spiritual.

I then do wonder about these pursuits as being another form of ignoring what is right in front of you. That job, that relationship that is "interfering". I think this is a dangerous thought pattern - that what is going on in one's life is not spiritual or even interferring, that there are a bunch of techniques or classes to take that once all that is done, then one can be spiritual.

The techniques may help, but watch out for them being "used" for another form of avoiding the present moment as it is. Look for spiritualness in what ever you do, where ever you find yourself. Sure you can't be in some super meditation state and drive to work, some special brain state that is sought after and thought of being the only way to be connected to spirit.

I'm just saying, ditching everything that is percieved to interfere with doing spiritual practices is not very spiritual. Those things that seem to be interfering are there because of your choices and are now reflections to remind you of choices. They are spiritual messages about how you feel about these things. Listen to them and make changes if you want to re-decide what you are doing.

[ericwordelman]

You don't see sages in India obsessing over how much money they're going to make this month.

From the Bible, "Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they?"

"Do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?"

Regarding your statement on choosing a path, "I do not accept paths... all paths lead to unreality. Paths are creations within the scope of knowledge. Therefore, paths and movements cannot transport you into reality, because their function is to enmesh you within the dimension of knowledge, while reality prevails prior to it."

-Nisargadatta Maharaj

"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live."
- Nisargadatta Maharaj


Have Fun!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

I suppose one answer is that, at least at the start, we must balance our habitual activities and thoughts with ones that help us reach a more wholesome level.

I see what you mean, but balance isn't a factor -- as in balancing habitual vs. mindful thought and behavior.

Rather, my purpose (or what Eric might consider my spiritual practice) is to continually practice the art of being mindful and to let go of habitual activity and thought as I become alert to it.

As Wolfgang was saying in other words, the art is in awakening in each moment, whether you are working, having lunch, meditating, making love, or plotting the overthrow of the government. There are no "spiritual activities" and "non-spiritual activities"; there are only activities in which we are either practicing being spiritual or not.

It's not the activity, it's the person you are being.

[ericwordelman]

"Spirituality is not child's play, my sentences will tear to pieces...anyone who listens to them."
-Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Angela]

That's funny! I think there's no one BETTER at spirituality than a child.

[Matthew Shea]

I'm very much a realistic type of person with most things in life and I think that spirituality is nothing if it doesn't guide and direct us through this life and give us a firm foundation of belief on which to base our decisions. In other words, the purpose of spirituality is to enhance our experience in this world and it shouldn't be necessary to remove ourselves from the world in order to experience and benefit from it. Many choose to do just that, joining convents and monasteries and the like, and that's fine, but I see remaining engaged in the world and creating a better, more perfect place as a higher calling.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Angela

I see what you mean, but balance isn't a factor -- as in balancing habitual vs. mindful thought and behavior.

Rather, my purpose (or what Eric might consider my spiritual practice) is to continually practice the art of being mindful and to let go of habitual activity and thought as I become alert to it.

As Wolfgang was saying in other words, the art is in awakening in each moment, whether you are working, having lunch, meditating, making love, or plotting the overthrow of the government. There are no "spiritual activities" and "non-spiritual activities"; there are only activities in which we are either practicing being spiritual or not.

It's not the activity, it's the person you are being.

I agree, with both you and Wolfgang, though I stand by my point that, at least at the beginning, being mindful in every moment can be difficult, and can slow you down.

If also depends on what you considers 'spiritual'. I'm sure different people will have different ideas of what that means... You could say that you simply need to be alive in order to be spiritual (and if we have a soul, not even that)

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

I agree, with both you and Wolfgang, though I stand by my point that, at least at the beginning, being mindful in every moment can be difficult, and can slow you down.

If also depends on what you considers 'spiritual'. I'm sure different people will have different ideas of what that means... You could say that you simply need to be alive in order to be spiritual (and if we have a soul, not even that)

Exactly! And slowing down is a good thing, right? A spiritual thing, even!

You sure are right about different ideas of what the word means ... I don't even like to use that word. It works better for me to think of it either being awake or being unconscious, and am I willing to be .....vigilant? It seems worth it to me because I want to soak it all up and savor it, this experience in physical reality I'm having. Still, sometimes I just conk out, awareness-wise.

[Maguru]

I have struggled with this and still am to be truthful. It is so difficult to appear 'normal' when you are seeing other than they. I have found that re-focus on self instead of thers shifts my discomfort. You could call it coming from self-awareness and love. When I feel lost and uncertain, I ask the question, "what would love do for me now?" It's a very personal love and my self-awareness guides me.
We are actually experiencing spirituality all the time no matter where we are or what we are doing. Everywhere you look, you will find self-awareness. Every experience will show you self. What you are thinking, what you are feeling and what you are doing. It is all about you and your path. You are your highest authority.

Originally Posted by ethereal

I read the other thread "money" in this forum, and I wanted to hear people's insights, experiences, opinions, and advice on this topic.

Is it possible to do both at the same time?

Or is it more about having to fulfill your obligations to the world/family, and if and when you're done you're free to pursue spirituality full-time?

Does it depend on how far along the path you are?

Is it possible to internally renounce everything, while staying in the world? Is it a matter of skill and learning to remain nonattached while engaged?

Like the other poster, I feel no desire to do anything in the world anymore, yet I have the nagging doubt that I need some degree of financial independence before I can seriously commit to spirituality. What do you guys think?

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Angela

Exactly! And slowing down is a good thing, right? A spiritual thing, even!

Not such a good thing if you slow down right before a major deadline, thus missing the deadline and aggravating your boss, who then fires you.

Originally Posted by Angela

You sure are right about different ideas of what the word means ... I don't even like to use that word. It works better for me to think of it either being awake or being unconscious, and am I willing to be .....vigilant? It seems worth it to me because I want to soak it all up and savor it, this experience in physical reality I'm having. Still, sometimes I just conk out, awareness-wise.

Some of my other posts will show that I also don't like the word, particularly because it can imply that something supernatural is required in order to live a fruitful life. Nothing mystical about awareness or vigilance, or compassion or love

[Liara Covert]

Hi ethereal,

A book called The Disappearance of the Universe by Gary R. Reynard offers insight that may assist you to reframe things.

All the best,
Liara