Getting over One consciousness/solipism/SR..

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

So humans are special and survive death? Proof?
Lets for a second follow LOGIC and evidence... consciousness is in our brain...
Our brain will eventually die... immortal where?

Good point, Dave.
'Where' are you?
Are you absolutely sure you are located at some point behind your eyes?

Maybe you are everywhere, and have been led to believe you are behind your eyes.

Consider a newborn. They identity themselves as everywhere. They do not feel a centralized location. They have not yet been taught by society that they are supposed to be only in the physical body. In a centralized location.

Read some books from Mystics that talk about this condition. I call it Trans-Local Awareness.

Ever watch a newborn pick up dirt and start eating it? Or try and touch the moon?
Why?
They have a non-centralized awareness and society has not yet taught them to centralize their awareness.

[absvan]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Dave,

I can understand and appreciate why subjective reality disturbs you. I don't think the manner in which most people portray subjective reality is correct either. Let me express my perspective in as few words as I possibly can:

Nothingness does not exist, for it is nothingness -- it is an idea created to describe a hypothetical state of infinite lack. It can't exist, because it is nothingness and if nothingness existed, it would then be somethingness and cease to be nothingness anymore. Because of that little metaphysical conundrum, everythingness DOES exist. This is balance. This thing we call "consciousness" or "awareness" is the same as what I have just called "everythingness". Observation is the backbone of existence -- the foundation for knowing. If there were no consciousness, how would you ever come to know if anything existed? Furthermore, would it matter if it did exist? My intuition, experiences, and personal meditations have led me to understand that consciousness is the realm of knowing itself. It is existence itself, and as such, it contains all probabilities. Consciousness is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent. If calling the backbone of existence "God" makes you happy, more power to you -- you may relate to your essential essence in anyway you please, though some try to make others feel bad for doing so.

What is the one thing an all knowing being does not know? And yes, this is a trick question. If one were continously aware of all things, of all probabilities, all the time, one cannot know what it is like to understand a state of NOT knowing, of not being completely aware. Because consciousness is the continuum of knowing, it HAS to know this probability, and births realities to accomodate this. Some people believe consciousness creates imperfection to appreciate itself, and maybe that is their take on that, but I don't feel that is a completely accurate statement (though, understand, no statement of words is). The reality we live in, a reality where the concept of "Lack" and "Separation" are real exists in order for Existence to be complete. In otherwords, realities like this exist to maintain and enrich perfection. It doesn't mean our reality is imperfect -- it is actually an integral part of perfection. You have to understand that all definitions of perfection are simply that: definitions. They are standards that we design and apply to reality, and are simply more examples of the thoughtform of separation playing out.

It is often said that All is a Grand Illusion. Physical reality is said to be a dream. What is the difference between the perfect illusion of a tree and a real tree? The distinction is arbitrary and meaningless. The value is what you assign it. If all is an illusion, then illusion is real. In a vivid dream, I can still sit under the tree, touch it, smell it, see it, taste the apples growing on it, and hear the birds chirping in it.

On subjective reality: Because everything already exists in the realm of consciousness, nothing was ever created and nothing will ever be destroyed. Things appear to have a beginning and an end in our reality because it is the playout of the thoughtform of Separation, and that involves linear time. The people you see on a day to day basis are you, but not in a solipsistic way. They are not unconscious robots walking around just to jack around with you. I'm real, you're real, we're all real, but we are all the same and yet we are different pieces of the whole. Imagine if you could skip to the end of this story called the universe and since you have all the time in the world on your hands (since it doesn't exist anyhow), you have the oppurtunity to go back and live each and every life ever lived. And while you are in those lives, all the people you come into contact with are YOU. You are interacting with yourself either in the future or the past, and they are real, but they are YOU.

Every single shred of consciousness is an immeasurably important piece of the whole. If one iota of consciousness were to discreate (but don't worry, it can't), the whole realm of existence would also. For me, all subjective reality has ever meant to me is that the Oberserver is not separate from the Observed. It's an important realization. Understand that your personal human ego is not the real you. That is you day dreaming you are someone with limitations. But you are also daydreaming that you are an infinite number of other people right now too, and they are all just as real as the ego you think are right now as well. And don't think the name of this game is to just wake up and realize you are god and be superman suddenly. It doesn't work that way. Maybe it does for some people, but each conscious incarnation is slightly different. You could be in this reality of limitation, for an entirely different purpose from the person you are standing next to.

Finding out what that purpose is will lead you to your path towards spiritual evolution. You are thinking are so many levels right now that you aren't aware of physically. You have many so called higher selves, and each one is just one more more cognizant self that has not yet expanded into All That Is. Your higher self's free will can overide your own, and the reason for that is awareness. You give up awareness when you incarnate into this reality. Most of the time the reason for this is that it is easier to learn from a blank state rather than working through the conditioning of inummerable past incarnations. Manifestion, and ideas like the law of attraction will work insofar as what you want does not interfere with what your higher self wants for you. There are lessons to be learned and if what you want interferes with those lessons it will set up road blocks, because having everything you ever wanted isn't always the reason you incarnated, believe it or not.

I basically just wanted to let you know there is more to this subjective reality stuff then most people let on. Or so, that's my opinion. People like to couch things in mysterious terms and concepts that just confuse people who don't already possess a certain understanding and it causes more insanity than enlightenment.

If you are ever interested in books that brought me alot of sanity over my spiritual path thus far, let me know. I used to have no belief in life after death either, and it took alot of reading and meditating to convince me otherwise.

Cheers.

Great explanation Anagogy....Right On!!!

Dave if you have read this then you should get the idea of SR.

[DaveTyler]

So we are all real? I am just me? David...
But at the same time u and I are the same consciousness?
Like the world exist outside of my senses?
Its no lie a menal dream where Im the only bein and others are projections of my mind?
That me(body) is the only seeer thinker feeler ?
So its not my 65thousand mental thoughts humans have everyday(that I hae to constantly monitor so I cut contact with everyone and isolated myself in fear of killin someone with my thoughts that create the world?
So m y obsessions of losing my soul and becoming someone else etc is still just delusional obsesions that wont happen?
Has all the delusions of my ego tryna kill me suffering 24/7 the last 2 years been my higher self tryna wae me up?
What about kundalini experiences etc. dreamn of the future syncrhonizin aura seein, its not just my tmind bein nuts?
So its not a acccident I was born into a western family where everyone beliee in reincarnation?

But where is m bliss and loev? i dont even have normal emoions anymore ever since I obsessed about losin them
Ur post was GREAT and informatie but I need to confirmed that u are not a part of m brain tryna make me happy

Srrryfor all the quesions bu its allOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOt to deal with for a OCD ADD DEPERSONALIZATION/DEREALZIAIN PANIC DISORDER CHRONIC DEPRESSION suffering 18 year old

man I feel s delusional riht niow

but what about science provin consciousnes is in the brain and god part of the brain that has developed over the centuries to cope with death?
And enlihtened mystics lie Osho Rajanees Jiddhu Krishnamurti UG Krishnamuri and all the other ha claim reincarnain god ETC is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ after all

[XeutonMojukai]

This is how I see it. I'll try to keep it simple, because I get intimidated by long paragraphs...

Okay. You think at first glance: Is DaveTyler all that exists?

That's incorrect.

Then you think: Do you exist, XeutonMojukai? Does a Tree exist?

Yes.

Does DaveTyler exist?

Yes.

Do our consciousnesses exist?

Trick question. Our consciousnesses are really one big one.

Wait, I don't get this... You are writing this stuff that I never knew before, but we're really the same thinker anyway? Then why don't I know everything you know?

You don't yet... but eventually you can by raising your level of awareness. That's what Buddha and Jesus did.

If you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

~ David

[DaveTyler]

so its OUR consciousness? not mine alone?
or am I freaking alone?
buut then tknowing this is really a curse cause hen ur all alone?

[wolfgang]

Funny someone posted row, row, row your boat. I just listened to a Wayne Dywer CD and he broke that song down like this:
row, row ,row (thinking, doing, acting, being in 3d world)
your boat (only you can have your thoughts, you can't think for someone else or not a good idea to try to think for someone else either)
gently down the stream (the stream of life, go with it, not against, no need to struggle)
merily, merliy merliy (take it easy and look for joy)
life is but a dream (well, is it? Maybe for DaveT right now not such a good point. I'd like to think life can be like a dream in the way to not be so intense about everything. and that life is very interesting. like dreams are.



Oneness or unity is available to us. It doesn't mean we stop being a physcial being. It can mean the physical being becomes more spirit like while at the same time having earthly dramas and identities.

Sometimes you'll hear about getting rid of the ego, and people freak because we are afraid of lossing things we cling to. There is a part of our ego which does relax when one has some unity expereinces. But there's still part of us that will be here and now, and even more alive than before when spirit is the identity. And it's mostly your thoughts that are you, or rather the thoughts that aren't habitual (ego). You can think what you want as being you. That part that you have as awareness and direct ablity to decide what to think about is more you than your body, say like 99% spirit thought and 1% physical body parts. Don't freak too much, the idea should kind of overlap with where ever you are coming from.

(btw, excellent posting people!)

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

For me, all subjective reality has ever meant to me is that the Oberserver is not separate from the Observed. It's an important realization.

Right on! Whenever you look at a tree, the seer and the seen are one. There is no such thing as a seer by itself nor the seen by itself. They always are present at the same time - no separation exists.

Understand that your personal human ego is not the real you. That is you day dreaming you are someone with limitations. But you are also daydreaming that you are an infinite number of other people right now too, and they are all just as real as the ego you think are right now as well.

That personal human ego is a dream of limitations. But also a ball of habitual thinking, clinging to definitions and seeing duality (just another wayto say it).

[Sunnybayes]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Thanks
Im starting to thin that all the philosophy, religion and spiritualit is the cause of all suffering in the world. WE ARE NOT IMPORTANT.
Evolution theor is not a theor its a fact...
The frightenes of death has created dleusions lie SR/Buddhism/Hinduism and 34232 more religions They hae one thing in common he are ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥...
I used to be afraid of the factthat we are our human brain, now after a delusional trip I see that escaping facs like death etc will only lead o dlesion.
There is no "One consciousness" Maybe UG Krishnamurti was true, here is no consciousness.
I stronglyadvice everyone to put their delusions down and face raeliy bfor eu mess ur brain up wih solipism...Goodluck
By the way LoA and all ha is jus psychological games, its not a Law or whatever in reality.

Im not saying this to put u down or anyhing. But I sought spirituality tyo become loving, found this site became suicidal narcissist.

[Still editing, posting now so I don't convince myself not to post, come back later.]

Lol... hey Dave I was just there an hour ago and for the last couple of days... and I feel I am about to slip into it again. I was hurting like hell, I felt like I was in hell, theorizing all these theories and physics and conciousness and everything like that. I bet Jesus could have related to this when he was in the desert alone feeling like god, didn't know what the hell his purpose was, thinking about all this stuff and wondering... what in the world is the point to all of this???

Here's how I'm after glowing... just follow the feelings inside your body. Don't think about any of the b.s. ideas that make you depressed. I just had a crisis with knowing too much stuff. This is about the 2nd time in my life when this really hit me hard. The first time it hit me hard was when I was in high school.

It has to do with purpose and how your brain figures out what in the world to do next. And it does this by figuring out things logically.... It wants to do things that "have a point", that there is some "reason" to do this event. We are social animals, we get out need to do this from other people. Usually there is a leader that gives us a purpose, he tells us what to do and we are happy to cooperate and do it for him, we don't have to sit down and have a reason to do it, or think about and wonder why we should do it, we just do it because he told us to do it.

Now what about the leader? How does he get his purpose? Where can he turn to? Well, I think evolution invented the god thing to help him out, or something like that. I hope that does not add more to think about for your depression.

But think about it this way. The society has to form someway, most of the people in it have to be "good cogs" of the society to just mindlessly get things done, just like zombies... and this relates to the levels of conciousness, they don't know why they do things, they just do it because they are told to and that's that, and they don't have to waste their time thinking about if things exists or not, they just get things done so that they'll have something to eat everyday and so the society functions. The leader is the one in charge who gets to tell people what to do. He's got the will power. His inspiration comes because he is the alpha male, his brain is on fire, he is very intelligent and can just think of tonnes of things instantly and does not have to think about procrastinating or applying 33 tips of productivity, or any other stupid tricks, no, because he is around people so much, and because he has an innate "purpose" he just does things instantly without having any resistance... Steve's done a fine job with telling people how to rip themselves away from the purposes of other people,i.e., not get a job, but then he forgot to tell us that finding our own purpose is the hardest part. He did not know that because he found that his purpose is to tell everyone this. We treat him like a leader, but he has not given us a purpose because he won't tell us specifically what to do, he just tells us to be productive with all those tips, but you need a purpose to apply those tips too. Well that was a nice spewing of theory, I'll have to clarify it later, but anyway...

Here is how to get over your depression of feeling absolutely pointless. You've just got to feel like crap. Make sure that you are not dehydrated just so that does not add to the pain. Go to your bed, lie down, I did it face down, then just tell you to relax over and over again. And you've got to clear out and erase that ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mental pattern that is sucking up your brain energy and making yourself feel pointless. I recently found that all the physic stuff basically is the language that crazy spiritual people use to describe this process.

Here's a really hard thing to explain, how in the world else am I supposed to describe how this happens???
Well there's plenty of spiritual mumbo jumbo enlightenment blablablabla stuff out there... I did not need to read an ounce of that stuff when I first did it, all that I did when I was in highschool was that I knew that I felt like ****, and that there was a specific area in my body where it happened, and that I could work hard "mentally" to get rid of it.

Basically whenever your mind is going off about stuff and that its all logical and everything and that there is some idea that is keeping your mind go in circles forever and ever

A perfect example of this mental pattern that is going to happen to you is that you read this and as you are relaxing your mind is going to tell you "but what's the point of relaxing and blablablablabla, and sunnybayes said this and that and blablabla" and that will make your brain waste even more energy and it will feel even more like hell too.

Life might be pointless, maybe it is pointless, maybe there is some god who gives it a purpose by being the leader's leader. Who in the world knows?? I don't, some people claim they know. But there is a choice you have to make. You can either live and be happy and have tonnes of fun, live and feel like you are in hell, or die. That's about it. Make your choice.

One great question underlies our experience, whether we think about it consciously or not: What is the purpose of life? I believe that the purpose of life is to be happy. From the moment of birth, every human being wants happiness and does not want to suffer. From the very core of our being we simply desire contentment.
Dalai Lama, Tibetan spiritual and political leader, Voices from the Heart

I don't know whether the universe, with its countless galaxies, stars, and planets, has a deeper meaning, but at the very least it is clear that we humans who live on this Earth face the task of making a happy life for ourselves. Dalai Lama, Tibetan spiritual and political leader, Voices from the Heart

[DaveTyler]

I DNN T UNDERSTAND THIS **** THESE PEOPLE GOT ME THINKING IM LIVIN INSIDE MY BRAIN WTFFFFFFFFFFFFF 18 YEAR OLD LIFE RUUUUUUUINED OVER RETARDED ****. If world dont dissaear when Im gone: I ADVICE U ALL GET THE **** OUT OF THIS PLACE

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

I DNN T UNDERSTAND THIS **** THESE PEOPLE GOT ME THINKING IM LIVIN INSIDE MY BRAIN WTFFFFFFFFFFFFF 18 YEAR OLD LIFE RUUUUUUUINED OVER RETARDED ****. If world dont dissaear when Im gone: I ADVICE U ALL GET THE **** OUT OF THIS PLACE

Dave,

Rather than all of us leaving, maybe it's time you took a break. We've been over and over and over and over the same ground and you either don't get it or don't want to get it.

You my friend have complete freedom to walk away and go live a life according to what ever you believe. I always get the impression that you really don't want to believe anything other than what you beleive, that's great! but constantly questioning and wanting to be convinced of something that you really don't want to be convinced of, doesn't help anyone especially you.

Max

[DaveTyler]

I believe ur my subconscis mind talkin to me inside of me..
Well if there is reincarnation Ill have a healthy mind if I am reborn

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

so its OUR consciousness? not mine alone?
or am I freaking alone?
buut then tknowing this is really a curse cause hen ur all alone?

Dave,

When you see the true nature of your soul, you will glimpse the magnificence therein also. The center of your soul is everywhere, and the circumference is nowhere. Consciousness cannot be alone. You are never alone. Oneness does not mean aloneness. If it helps, imagine that a society of entities (an infinity perhaps), moved from grace to grace and came to harmonize with one another so perfectly that for all rights and reasonable purposes, they are one entity. They are not alone, and they are not separate -- they are one.

These words will remain just that -- words, until you decide that you want to know if they are true or not. When truth becomes more important than anything else to you, turn your intent towards it, demanding that come hell or highwater, the truth will be revealed to you. That will start the ball rolling, and eventually I hope you find peace in it, whatever that truth ends up to be for you.

[DaveTyler]

This is solipism, all philosophy leads to solipism.
If you are all then ur creator if ur creator ur God if ur al ur allone ur talkin to yourself not others...
There for all u do for others is for urself EGOMEGANOMALIA. See?
U are walkin inside ur own mind, is that really a nice point of view for u?


Then life is pointless u created it a so theres nothin to discover, noone to et to know, noone to love no one to impress no uniqueness...SEe?
U will become a narcissitic depressed suicidal miserable person feeling trapped when i comes clear that what u believe


seperation needs to exist to feel loved and love otherwise ur all alone

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Dave,

Rather than all of us leaving, maybe it's time you took a break. We've been over and over and over and over the same ground and you either don't get it or don't want to get it.

You my friend have complete freedom to walk away and go live a life according to what ever you believe. I always get the impression that you really don't want to believe anything other than what you beleive, that's great! but constantly questioning and wanting to be convinced of something that you really don't want to be convinced of, doesn't help anyone especially you.

Max

I second this motion / advice. Taking a break might help you if you want to be helped.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

This is solipism, all philosophy leads to solipism.
If you are all then ur creator if ur creator ur God if ur al ur allone ur talkin to yourself not others...
There for all u do for others is for urself EGOMEGANOMALIA. See?
U are walkin inside ur own mind, is that really a nice point of view for u?

Take it easy man. If something doesn't jive with you, reject it for now for yourself. It does seem like you are angry with the fact some ideas found you. But ideas are not to be taken in just because they showed up or many want to tell you how they see it. Having your own point of view is the best way to go, no matter what. If an idea comes along that fits your thinking and helps, use it - otherwise why try to fivure it out or get stuck with it? Let it go. But, I know, there's temptation to want to see what others are saying is so great for them, that there some advantage to "get it", so then you struggle with making nutty ideas fit in. Don't do that. Find other material that does fit. There are so many ways to talk and write about spirituality that are just not even it. The Tao that can be named is not the Tao.

Then life is pointless u created it a so theres nothin to discover, noone to et to know, noone to love no one to impress no uniqueness...SEe?
U will become a narcissitic depressed suicidal miserable person feeling trapped when i comes clear that what u believe

I don't know who is having that experiecne while looking at spirituality. I would say, it need not be this way. If ideas lead you to conclude things that shut you off, it's not spiritual or growth or healthy, right? Life is what you make of it, by the way. You get what you put in. If the conclusion is that life is pointless, it's more a desicion to see it that way. If you think there's something to these ideas but the conclusions backfire on you, either let it go or reframe it so the ideas fill you up and makes you hopeful.

seperation needs to exist to feel loved and love otherwise ur all alone

Maybe that's true. I've often wondered how it's possible to feel unity/oneness (and I have glimses) - you would think it's impossible because if I am one with all that is there is no reference point or interface for the experience. But even the most enlightened ones were still a person living a life and their love was pretty big as a message. I like to the separation is still part of being enlightened so that there's a way to experience being.

[XeutonMojukai]

I apologize that I made it a bit more difficult.

My meaning was that just because you are all things doesn't mean you are one thing.

That's the beauty of it.

God is not one thing called God. God is like a union of things, and the higher mind made of all these lesser minds is what many of us consider God, when that's not quite it.

So therefore, You and I are smaller bits of God, but when we die awakened we will become one with God, and our egos that make us XeutonMojukai and DaveTyler will disappear, leaving only the soul that is happy to be free of singularity.

I understand how you are feeling suicidal.

I was feeling that way for a very long time myself.

What got me out of it was realizing that my death was like the death of one cell on a human body as it is.

Then, I realized that if I became a very special cell, almost like going from being a skin cell to becoming a nerve cell, it would be similar to how a nerve cell is always there until the death of the body, or until it's killed.

So the reality is that most of the God-body is like most of our bodies... flesh and blood.

The really important part of the God-body is essentially the equivalent of the nervous system... Very important to the survival of God.

The more we try to move towards the higher brain functions, the more aspects of the body we can perceive on our own.

But there are always other cells around us, whether we're skin cells, heart cells, or even nerves.

A cell from my body is me. Similarly, we are all God. Without each and every one of us, God would not be God.

You should rest your mind. You should also try having some fun.

Just because there's such a heavy responsibility upon us doesn't mean we can't lighten the load with a little fun...

Try to enjoy yourself, and realize that you are providing every pleasure you experience in a very profound way.

That doesn't mean sex with your soulmate is like masturbation, and thus is unnecessary.

What that means is that sex with your soulmate is something you've given yourself, and therefore it's something you now deserve.

And this is just one example.

I hope you find a peaceful perspective soon. I know how scary this is at first. I don't want you to give up hope.

Convince yourself of this, and you'll never need to fear death:

"I am too smart to kill myself, because I know that I can get better."

Say it as a mantra. I did this, and it kept me alive more than once.

~ David

[unicorn]

Dave Tyler, you mentioned that you have OCD. The OCD is not YOU, but that disorder has a way of hijacking the thinking process of the mind, and the effects of that can be immeasurably destructive unless you keep it in check.

One of the most common symptoms of OCD is that it makes the mind grab onto the most negative interpretation possible of a religion/philosophy, especially using those negative interpretations to run compulsivly repeated thoughts about how bad the person that has this disease is. It can drive one completely suicidal, as it goes on like an old record with a bump in it and it is not open to arguments. It's simply a monologue going in repeat-mode.

Spiritual seeking with OCD in the picture is a serious challenge, and not for the weak of heart to put it mildly. You have my sincere admiration for your attempts at figuring this out, and my compassion for how hard it must be to separate out yourself and your own true opinions from this "misfiring of the brain".

Have you stopped to consider that maybe some of your interpretations of SR/solipism/oneness is maybe a bit afflicted by the OCD? I do not really know if that is possible for you to do that, I only want to offer a couple of suggestions that maybe can help you feel a little better.

If you really think about it, you know that OCD is not YOU, don't you? Try to get in touch with the you that is not thinking if possible, then just observe what type of thoughts that run in your mind about yourself. Then say to yourself: "These thoughts do not mean anything. These thoughts are not mine, they are produced by OCD. I want these thoughts to stop NOW!" If you can get them to stop for just a second, then smile and compliment yourself. With practice you can maybe stop them for 2 seconds, then maybe 3 seconds and so on. Then maybe you will discover that this whole discussion really does not mean anything either. And maybe you will discover what does mean something.

Also listening to brainentrainment CD's can help stop the automatic thoughts. I know that has helped me a lot, even though I don't have OCD, I have had some experience with compulsive thoughts in my life in a milder form, and then brainentrainment has helped a lot. It is a system of sound that makes the brain produce more alpha, theta and delta-waves, and those counters compulsive thinking that normally are beta-waves. There is a free brainwave generator that can be downloaded to make your own CD's for it. I've lost the link, but if you google BWGEN you'll find it if you are interested.

The reason I am posting this is I think that maybe you are doing yourself a disservice by discussing this topic with the staunch believers in SR until you are sure you have your OCD in control. OCD is sort of like your enemy that will follow you into any discussion and try to trick you into just seeing how a philosphy will make you "a bad person, evil, not good enough, doomed to be suffering forever" sort of perceptions. If you reject SR, and go for another belief system without conquering the OCD, it will use the next belief system in the same way and you will feel just as bad about it as you do with SR. OCD is really the king of inducing shame and guilt, and as far as I know it is not treatable by the mainstream personal development advice material. The only way to treat it is if YOU decide to pursue a road to find healing for it and make it your top priority. If you make that decision you will find a way to heal from it with if you spend your energy on trying to find a way to control it instead of entering into reading information that plays you right into it's hands so to speak.

I hope this will help you and not discourage you. You have my sincere respect for how you are dealing with this so far. I did not catch it before you mentioned it yourself, and that is a sign you are a bit more in charge of it than others I have seen in forums around the web. So hang in there and have hope and faith in yourself.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Actually Dave there is no proof Consciousness is in our brains.

A_libs I actually really think that would be a revolutionary discovery that could make a difference in people's religious/spiritual views. What if someone proved that consciousness or the mind did not reside in the brain? That would be ridiculous, and the implications of it would be earth-shattering. I read an article once, it might have been linked from here, and in it the dalai lama, or some buddhist monk that was working with scientists to combine science and spirituality said that the mind was not located in the brain.

Anyways that would be sweet. Now we just need to think of a good experiment.

Erock

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Erock

I read an article once, it might have been linked from here, and in it the dalai lama, or some buddhist monk that was working with scientists to combine science and spirituality said that the mind was not located in the brain.

That's interesting because SR places identity with consciousness and everything including my mind/body (the observe) and all the mind/bodies are inside consciousness.

Warning: SR Rant Follows

There can no scientific proof because it's not science, it's not tangible, it's physical output for sure, proof wise I find the proof for SR in the fact I can't place my true identity inside or of my mind/body, if it's not inside a body (it's not) then it must be of that body and of everything else. So my true identity is everything I observe and nothing I don't. I'm as much the tree, the sky, the other people as I am the mind/body I observe through.

Right now I'm sitting at a PC typing and everything within my awareness is me including the body I observe through and nothing outisde of that is me and/or real for I cannot observe it. This is SR and it places identity and full responsibility with consciousness (me) when things enter my awareness (my container) I placed them there, they are not coincidental, they are not accidental.

People are a real challenge in the understanding of SR. How can they not be real? They are real, just as my mind/body is real, but they are not conscious, only consciousness is conscious. Consciousness is creator, people and everything else is output, creation. You might say "but my loved one has thoughts and emotions and opinons, are they not real?" yes their thoughts and emotions are real, as they are real, but everything they say and think is a product of consciousness and there is only one consciousness.

If you want to see proof of SR, proof of consciousness, then take a look around at you immediate awareness, your present moment environment and then ask the question "What am I and where am I" eventually you'll see that you are not a physical body, you are everything within present moment awareness, the tree, the sky, all the people, including the body you observe through, but you are not anything outside of awareness for nothing outside awareness exists.

Here endth the rant

Max

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Seriously has anyone EVER recovered? Im seriously on the verge of giving up life all together...
Please if someone disagree with this and got good arguements pleases come forward.

I may not be completely viewing "one consciousness"/subjective reality from the inside out yet, but I've had enough glimpses of it to form a relative understanding. And from my experience, there's really nothing to "get over". From the way you write about it, it seems to me that you are not yet quite "in" it either, and you've created some sort of belief that is very similar to what you have read about, but isn't quite there, as it seems more disempowering then empowering. It sounds a lot like solipsism, which is another issue entirely and has nothing to do with subjective reality, as I have found from personal experience. Steve has also talked about solipsism in this blog post, and some time ago he made the following post on the subject (I'd link to where Steve posted it, but the thread has since been deleted... I happened to have it saved somewhere on my computer, so I thought I'd repost it since it seemed relevant/insightful... credit goes to Steve Pavlina for the quote):

Solipsism isn't the mindset I describe as subjective reality. The difference lies in how you identify yourself. With solipsism you are rooted in your ego, and the whole world revolves around you. With subjective reality the definition of you expands to encompass everything in your experience, so the whole world IS you. That distinction might seem subtle, but in practice it's rather huge. Solipsism is roughtly what you typically get when you try to project subjective reality into an objective framework. There is an ineffable quality to the experience that is lost when it's described in objective terms. It can only really be understood by experiencing it. The words are merely a pointer to the experience.

So, the question is, how do you know "when you're there"? How do you know when you’re looking at a subjective reality belief system from the inside out and not just thinking you're inside it when you're really opting to believe in a belief system that is ultimately disempowering/limiting?

A good way to know is to look at someone who has already made the journey. For example, if you want to be a millionaire, simply look at a millionaire and their millions of dollars, their beliefs, their behaviour, their actions, etc, and you'll pretty quickly know if you're "there" or not. Your beliefs, behaviour, and actions may not be identical, but I'd say there'd be quite a lot of overlap, or at the very least, things that are only different by a matter of degree, not essence.

Likewise, a good way to know if you're "there" with subjective reality is to look at someone who has already made the journey. In this case, assuming you believe what he writes, that person would be Steve. So look at Steve and compare your experience of reality to his. Are you getting similar results? Are you fearless, enthusiastic, insatiately curious, and gushing with love and joy? Do you easily and naturally forgive other people, as well as yourself? Is your belief in subjective reality improving your life for the better, to the degree that there are clear, visible results of such improvement?

I believe that to the degree that you are experiencing results similar to what Steve gets (again, assuming you believe Steve has already "made the journey" and his subjective reality posts aren't just some sort of attempt at tricky fiction writing), you'll know whether or not you have "made the journey" to the belief system of subjective reality. Granted, Steve did a lot of other personal development before he adopted a belief in subjective reality (make sure you take that into account -- it's possible some of his current "results" come from other things/beliefs), but I think I did a pretty good job of covering what one is likely to experience if they install the subjective belief system.

If you are not getting similar results, then don't fret -- dust yourself off and keep going, assuming you believe the journey (ie. adopting a belief in subjective reality) is still worth it. From what you have been saying so far about your belief system (or the belief system you are trying to understand/believe), it seems it is causing you a great deal of suffering. If I were you, I'd drop it quick smart and start focusing on some beliefs that have worked for you in the past. The ultimate goal of changing your beliefs is to not only experience growth, but to empower yourself and be less limited.

If any belief you have is causing you suffering, disempowering you, or limiting you in a way you dislike -- even if it's a belief that seems to work for thousands of other people -- I suggest you dump it. You wouldn't put your hand in a fire because you know it will burn you and result in pain; likewise, don't focus on understanding/considering/installing beliefs that cause you pain/suffering. It doesn't help you, and it isn't pleasant.

Realise that "our deepest beliefs about ourselves and the nature of our world are not true in themselves, but our thinking makes them true in our experience. We can change our thinking and change even our deepest core beliefs." (That's a quote my Marc Allen from here, by the way.) Even your current beliefs about your current situations are beliefs in themselves (a belief is merely a thought... something you choose to focus on and view as your “truth”), so if you find them disempowering, dump them and choose some better ones (which, as I said before, is the whole point of changing beliefs in the first place -- shedding limiting, disempowering beliefs and adopting empowering ones).

Now if all of that doesn’t make any sense, I suggest you listen to Podcast #013 - Beyond Religion, as Steve goes into great detail about an empowering mindset that you can adopt when playing around with and testing out beliefs (for more info simply read the so called “show notes” about the podcast by following the link to the podcast I posted previously).

Additionally, in the post below this one, I’ll leave you with two quotes from the comment section of one of Steve’s articles (when he still had comments enabled). You may not find everything relevant, but I believe you’ll find a fair bit of it helpful.

And if you don't find ANY of what I've written/linked to/suggested helpful (including this post and the one after it), I'll include something you can try -- something I have found and still do find to be very effective -- in the post below the one with the comments I said I'd quote.

(You'll find the comments I said I'd post below.)

[Bruce Achterberg]

Here are the comments I said that I'd post in my above post:

(Why am I quoting such a large amount of text? Does that not breach fair use copyright laws? As far as I understand it, the comments on Steve’s blog are much like posts made on this forum, and so long as they are {A} used on Steve’s website, {B} used for non-commercial purposes, and {C} the source is credited, usage of the quotes falls within fair use. If anybody -- namely Steve or other Moderator with more copyright law info then myself -- feels otherwise, please contact me via PM and let me know.)

Originally Posted by A comment by ‘Ilya Olevsky’ from the blog post, ‘Take the Red Pill’:

[...] One thing that I’ve found to be true is that our brain will agree to believe just about anything if we have the genuine desire to believe it. Take magic tricks for example. Everyone knows that there’s no such thing as magic, but when people are watching magic tricks they choose to believe that magic is real. If the audience didn’t take on this belief while watching magic tricks, the whole show wouldn’t work.

I can give a personal example of how different beliefs affect one’s perception of magic tricks. Not long ago, I was given a Power Point presentation with a “magic trick” slideshow. It was supposedly created by David Copperfield, which in itself helps put you in the right mood. In the slide show I was shown a bunch of cards and asked to select one. The slide claimed that David Copperfield will magically know what card I picked and remove it in the next slide. And guess what? in the next slide, my card was gone.

So was it magic? At first I thought “Wow, that’s pretty cool. Magic!” I chose to believe that it really was magic, and to me it was real at that moment. Then my analytic senses kicked in. I scratched my head and thought that this can’t really happen. It’s completely illogical since it’s a linear Power Point presentation. So I went back through it, and analyzed the slide where I picked a card, and the slide which showed the cards without the one I picked. Turned out that the slide without my card actually had completely different cards from the ones in the slide that asked me to pick a card. The point is that since I wanted to see magic (and wanted the trick to work), I chose to believe that it would happen. And magic was what I saw.

I bring this up because what you describe is your perception of reality, which is based on your beliefs (I think you said the same thing pretty much). But what if your brain just plays along with what you want to experience? How can you be sure that what you’re experiencing in your dreams isn’t just fabrication of your own mind?

A malfunctioning brain can create its own reality. We tend to call that “mental illness” and more technical names like “schizophrenia.” To me, it seems like what you are doing is similar but in a controlled environment. Either that, or people with schizophrenia don’t actually have a malfunctioning brain but one that just enters the astral plane or whatever without any conscious control. I’m certainly open to different interpretations of reality, but being an analytical person it’s hard for me to believe something without a reasonable explanation.

Source: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200.../#comment-1483

Originally Posted by In response to the above comment from the blog post, ‘Take the Red Pill’, ‘Steve Pavlina’ wrote:

What you describe, Ilya, is a common “first stop” down the rabbit hole, where you try to stretch existing paradigms to explain as much as possible, yet without fully letting go of those paradigms. Yet we can also choose to snap our beliefs in those paradigms entirely… with interesting results.

What is reality? Is it something separate from our perceptions, or do our perceptions define our personal reality? Is it possible that someone who appears insane from my perspective is perfectly sane within their own reality? Which one of us is at fault for being unable to bridge the gap and create a common shared reality?

My perspective on this is that each of us lives in a slightly different reality. In order to communicate, we must enter a shared reality together. Anyone who can’t do this with you will appear to be insane from your perspective. If there is an objective reality, then insanity is an inability to accurately perceive and model that reality. If reality is co-created by our thoughts, however, then insanity could be defined as an inability to cooperatively co-create a shared reality which permits effective communication with others.

What I enjoy about shifting my beliefs is that I’m always able to “reload” previous belief systems and thereby communicate effectively with those who exist within them. Most people experience this automatically to some degree - get back with a group of old friends, and you automatically reload shared experiences. Spend some time with family that you haven’t seen in a year, and you’ll feel your personality shifting to reload your old communication paradigms. But you can do it with new people too - reload your experience of Christianity or Buddhism when meeting Christians or Buddhists, for example. Wherever we can build enough of a shared reality, we can communicate. But when the gap is too great, we experience relative insanity. I think this is why squirrels seem insane to me; we can’t communicate well because our realities are too different. But if I adopt the belief system of a squirrel, who knows… Tarzan Squirrel?

When you stretch your paradigms so far that they break the shared reality experienced with other people, then from the perspective of other people, you’d appear to be insane or missing, meaning that you can’t communicate. This is what happens when you sleep. Your mind is off in another reality, and you need to be pulled back into a common reality in order for someone to talk to you. Someone who is awake can’t communicate with you without waking you up, and you can’t communicate with them via your dreams. So one way of viewing sleep is that it’s a period where we all go temporarily insane, losing our ability to communicate and interact with the physical world. And when you get into exploring dream and astral worlds deeply enough, you’ll discover there are persistent shared places there too, also full of persistent conscious beings. With some practice two people can go to sleep, intentionally visit one of those astral locations, share some experiences together, and then wake up and remember the shared experience. You can even pass messages to each other through a non-human third-party intermediary.

So we needn’t really fear long-term insanity because we can always go back and reload this reality whenever we wish to share it. We return through the same process whereby we return from our dreams. We wake up.

I think the kind of insanity where you get locked up in an asylum, however, means that you’re stuck in some alternate reality and can’t find your way back to a shared one. You buy into an alternate reality of your own making and lose sight of the fact that you’re creating it. You become unable to escape it because your own beliefs trap you inside of it. But as long as you maintain an awareness that you’re the creator, you don’t need to worry because you can always shift your beliefs back and forth as needed. It’s similar to the idea that once you learn how to ride a bike, you never forget.

Source: http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200.../#comment-1484

[Bruce Achterberg]

As I said in one of my above posts, if you don't find ANY of what I've written/linked to/suggested so far helpful, here's something you can try -- something I have found and still do find to be very effective, enjoyable, and pleasant:

Take a break for a few days and "get out of your head" (ie. stop thinking and trying to analyse and understand things) and get outside into nature. Watch the beauty of a sunset or sunrise. Gaze up into the night sky and stare at the magnificence of the stars. Watch some animals if you can find some -- maybe some birds, your own pet (or somebody else’s), etc. Go for a walk in a park, or the beach, or a garden of some sort -- whatever you can find.

Now when you're actually in nature, don't think about things. Just turn off your thinking for a while and watch things with the intention of putting 100% of your attention on whatever you are looking at. Don't imagine/visualise things. Don't turn your thought into words (ie. subvocalisation). If you find it difficult to stop thinking, don't resist it or get upset, just say something like, "ok, I can't stop thinking just yet... this is how it is... fair enough", and turn your attention to your sensory perception.

What can you smell? What sounds can you hear? What can you feel? What can you see around you? Maybe even close your eyes, hold up your left or right hand, and ask yourself this question: Without touching or moving my hand, how can I know it's still there? Don't try to figure out the answer mentally -- feel it out. This should take your attention into your hand, and you may feel a gentle tingling sensation, or at least a sensation that you didn't feel a few moments before. It doesn't matter what you perceive, just focus on perception.

Do this "nature" practice for as long as you can (ie. in your spare time when you're not busy doing other things, such as eating, sleeping, grooming, school/work, etc). Even if it sounds silly, just humour me and try it for a few days, or more if you want to. I think you'll find it pleasantly helpful, or at the very least, relaxing.

Keep with it, Dave.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Max Power

...proof wise I find the proof for SR in the fact I can't place my true identity inside or of my mind/body, if it's not inside a body (it's not) then it must be of that body and of everything else.

inside or of the body? What does true identity of the body mean? That preposition of makes me think you are saying it comes from the body. But that's just chaing "of" to "comes from". The true self is a label and you are applying diferent prepositions to a label to describe the relationship between an indentity and a body, both of which are labels or definitions of a boundary on the sense of self. The true self is not an identity that is in relationship to the body. The preposition I like is "through". The true identity goes through the body.

...How can they not be real? They are real, just as my mind/body is real, but they are not conscious, only consciousness is conscious. Consciousness is creator, people and everything else is output, creation.

That's a point that freaks people out. "they are not conscious, only consciousness is conscious"? The conclusion that others are not conscious by saying only consciousness is conscious is like saying: the water falls are not wet, because only water is wet.

but everything they say and think is a product of consciousness and there is only one consciousness.

things said and thought is partly habitual mind stuff and then some acts/words/thoughts of them is consciousness or their true self coming through the body. I think I'm saying the same thing you are here.

If you want to see proof of SR, proof of consciousness, then take a look around at you immediate awareness, your present moment environment and then ask the question "What am I and where am I" eventually you'll see that you are not a physical body, you are everything within present moment awareness, the tree, the sky, all the people, including the body you observe through, but you are not anything outside of awareness for nothing outside awareness exists.

Of coarse another point to freak on. Nothing outside of awareness exists. Thing is we are constantly also keeping thoughts of things not in our awareness, in our memories. Those memories are also forms of something in the present moment. You can only recall a memory in the present moment. Things can exist with memory, in other words. We have our complex body/mind doing that for us. We don't need to freak out and say,well then everything I can remember doesn't exist right now because, well, I can't sense it right now. I think that's too far to say and discounts the power of our subconscious to keep exsistance in a bigger sphere than just what is imediatly with our senses. At least that's how I keep from freaking out "with the tree not making a sound when I'm not there".

[Maguru]

I really like the idea of 'not thinking' and just being. I understand this can only be achieved for short periods of time. I haven't been able to.
Personally my mind is like a 'middle man' between me and the outside world. It's like a separate entity with a mind of its own that drives me nuts at times and fills me with delight at others. Huh?
I believe I am not my mind but I wonder what is the true function of the mind?

[openeyes]

I enjoy this forum as a place to share ideas when I’m not busy hanging out with friends in person. For peace (or bliss/love), go on a good hike, ride your bike, volunteer, just get into the world and your body for a while and out of your head. Hang out with friends. Don’t worry so much about the philosophical implications of things you read.

Go out and live, observe, and adjust your views based on experience. You can read to get new ideas to try out, but if an idea gives you negative results (ie feeling suicidal) it’s time to let it go for a while. For me truth is function. If something isn’t working for me it isn’t worth my time/energy.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I believe I am not my mind but I wonder what is the true function of the mind?

If we can accept that part of us will live past the physical, then whatever that thing we are is, must be our true self and this physicality must be output of some sort.

So true self can't be physical or at least can't be just physical, so where is control? where is creation? Physical can't then be creative at all, it's just more output. You use your physical body to create stuff, but everything starts as thought or choice, then it's physical effort and then created, but is it already created and then rendered in physical reality to justify the physical reality output.

Could it be that everything is already created and we as physical beings are just going through the motions, going through the process to enjoy it all from the observer POV.

If consciousness is so very powerful it can create anything, then it must have already created it and/or know what it will create. Imagine consciousness is somewhere, decides to have an experience maps out the whole thing and then creates everything as it's already seen. Of course it wipes it's own memory so as to enjoy the things it's already created as if they aren't created yet.

I'm not sure what my point is

Max

[Liara Covert]

If we accept part of us lives past the physical, this is great incentive to learn to perceive beyond the limits of the physical even now.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

If we accept part of us lives past the physical, this is great incentive to learn to perceive beyond the limits of the physical even now.

LC, that's true and that seems to be where all of the power is, I think my point was to establish a theory I have about consciousness, that I'll post in the IM section

Max

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

If we accept part of us lives past the physical, this is great incentive to learn to perceive beyond the limits of the physical even now.

That's what drives my interest in developing my spiritual part or finding it. It's to accept that I'm more than a bunch of smart atoms, but also to help realize the expanded self that is more than physcial. That way when the physcial part is complete, it won't be such a strange transition.