SR has the potential to make me stop caring about others

[BeyondBewildered]

I've thought about the nature of reality since around forever, but it's never been more than speculation. Reading Pavlina's SR articles has really made me start thinking about it again. At first, I rejected what he said outright because I don't really want it too be true. But I rejected it in a way that I do when something strikes a chord that I'd rather not have struck; deep down, it resonates, and it might be all true.

So it seems that when most people start adopting this worldview and see other people/things as parts or reflections of themselves, it helps them. But for me, I feel like I'm losing all reason to care about anyone but myself. I mean, why bother? I don't care now because I think God wants me to, or it's morally right or anything like that. I care because I can't stand the thought of suffering. But if they aren't real as they appear to me, neither is the suffering, so why should I concern myself with it.

Some examples. I find a lot of stray animals, capture them, get them better, and then find them homes. It's always given me tremedous satisfaction. But why the hell should I bother? Right now, there is a emaciated ginger tom cat and a litter of kittens I'm trying to get. But they aren't real right? They are just a reflection of how much I care about starving homeless animals, particularly cats. So I've actually just created a bunch of starving cats. Great. I should just stop looking for the cats because as long as I don't see them, or think about them suffering, then it isn't a problem.

Same thing with people. I have a cousin trapped in the horror of the foster care system, and I've been trying to get him out. The only reason I want to is because he's miserable. It doesn't benefit me in the least, in fact it's a big PITA. And he's a reflection of how much I hate the foster care system and our acculturation process. It's completely in my best interest to just leave him be. What reason is there for me to help him? I don't really have a problem with leaving a fraction of myself in foster care if his suffering only exists because I think there's an actual person suffering. I'm just creating more of a problem by even thinking about it.

After the Virginia Tech massacre, Steve explained that he would look at it from an SR standpoint and wonder why he killed off parts of himself. I found it disgusting. He didn't mention the parts of himself that he made feel the searing pain of grief. But for him, those people don't exist. He can't see them, so they aren't suffering. How convenient is that! Why send care packages to soldiers in Iraq? There aren't any soldiers, there's no Iraq, and sending a care package merely creates a soldier that needs one. Why donate to charities that combat human trafficking, baby rape or any specific cause I'm interested in eradicating. The causes don't even exist. I'm the one creating the problem. I should just do more to make my life as absolutely fantastic as possible, instead of bumming myself out.

Is there anyone else that feels this way when they think about the world from a subjective perspective? Or does everybody get filled with wonderful feelings of helping others because it really helps yourself. Because I am SO not feeling that way. The only reason I've ever wanted to help anyone was because I was thinking about them. It was usually a hassle my end. I'm not interested in helping reflections of myself. My primary self is doing just fine. And it's starting to seem like that is all that matters. Any insight would be appreciated.

[Groundless]

I am not quite as able with the written word as some of the prolific authors here but I will take a stab at this.

I care because I can't stand the thought of suffering.

Who is suffering?

But if they aren't real as they appear to me, neither is the suffering, so why should I concern myself with it.

True.

I find a lot of stray animals, capture them, get them better, and then find them homes. It's always given me tremedous satisfaction. But why the hell should I bother?

You have an excellent point. When you help these other creatures what does this make you feel like? Who benefits?

Right now, there is a emaciated ginger tom cat and a litter of kittens I'm trying to get. But they aren't real right?

Nothing is, including your body and your mind.

They are just a reflection of how much I care about starving homeless animals, particularly cats. So I've actually just created a bunch of starving cats. Great. I should just stop looking for the cats because as long as I don't see them, or think about them suffering, then it isn't a problem.

This is a sure way to see more of them.

Same thing with people. I have a cousin trapped in the horror of the foster care system, and I've been trying to get him out. The only reason I want to is because he's miserable.

If you are not the body and not the mind surely your cousin at the very least is not either. True suffering ends when we escape the false belief we are the body-mind-this non-reality.

And he's a reflection of how much I hate the foster care system and our acculturation process.

And the more you hate it the more you notice it and attract it.

I don't really have a problem with leaving a fraction of myself in foster care if his suffering only exists because I think there's an actual person suffering

Who is suffering?

Is there anyone else that feels this way when they think about the world from a subjective perspective? Or does everybody get filled with wonderful feelings of helping others because it really helps yourself. Because I am SO not feeling that way. The only reason I've ever wanted to help anyone was because I was thinking about them. It was usually a hassle my end. I'm not interested in helping reflections of myself. My primary self is doing just fine. And it's starting to seem like that is all that matters. Any insight would be appreciated.

Have you tried letting all your desire go? Can you let go and let be? When I have let go I have found my compassion and care increase exponentially - kinda weird.

[wolfgang]

Mostly I agree. Anything that makes you care less about others or yourself is not the way to go. However the idea of you are one with everything, to me, has translated into more caring for others. Since everything is connected spiritually, then others are to be honoured as much as you can hounor yourself.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

That souds like a pretty confusing place to be. I can definitely see why you feel the way you do. I guess I have not taken the idea of SR quite to it's logical end, whatever that is. At the moment, it's primary use for me is in learning about how the things I see in others reflect my own issues. It somehow doesn't make me feel like the other person is not real or important. Maybe I don't fully accept the model of reality. I don't accept that helping other people is unnecessary according to SR. Perhaps Steve could write an article (or maybe one he has addresses it) because he continually states he wants to help people learn and grow. I also don't feel like helping others is really just self-serving. Maybe I am just taking the parts I find helpful and leaving the rest. I would not recommend adopting a worldview that makes you feel crummy. But there are probably some people on here who will explain it in such a way that it empowers you. They have a way of doing that. I truly hope you are able to find some peace in whatever model of reality you choose to embrace. It is up to you whether you accept SR or choose another way. Best wishes.

[BeyondBewildered]

Originally Posted by Groundless

Who is suffering?

I don't know. According to SR, apparently no one. According to my senses, a lot of people.

Originally Posted by Groundless

If you are not the body and not the mind surely your cousin at the very least is not either. True suffering ends when we escape the false belief we are the body-mind-this non-reality.

I thought the whole SR thing was that my cousin was really me. And truely, I don't want that part of me to live in the same house as this me. But if he is a real person with his own conciousness and we are in the same reality, I should probably keep trying to get him out. If not, then I should do the best thing for me.

Originally Posted by Groundless

Have you tried letting all your desire go? Can you let go and let be? When I have let go I have found my compassion and care increase exponentially - kinda weird.

No, I'm not good at letting to or letting be. Not too great at forgiving either. But I do give it the ol' college try every now and again. I can't recall any surge in compassion. Nice to know it happens, though.

I was pretty much born in care overdrive. I just care care care about everything. Up until recently, I've felt an overwhelming desire to help everybody and do more than my part to rid the world of certain social and environmental evils. But lately I've just been saying, ahh screw it. This isn't because I've been thinking about reality fom a subjective sense. I think I'm just plum cared out. And SR and LOA are starting to justify these feelings of taking a more selfish path in life. It's not even selfish from that perspective. But, I did look for those cats today.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

Is there anyone else that feels this way when they think about the world from a subjective perspective? Or does everybody get filled with wonderful feelings of helping others because it really helps yourself. Because I am SO not feeling that way. The only reason I've ever wanted to help anyone was because I was thinking about them. It was usually a hassle my end. I'm not interested in helping reflections of myself. My primary self is doing just fine. And it's starting to seem like that is all that matters. Any insight would be appreciated.

I don't know where everyone gets this idea that other people don't exist. Is it not obvious they are conscious? If they are reflections of you and you are conscious, they are conscious. You feel, they feel.

Let me put it this way. You say "I'm not interested in helping reflections of myself." What you're really saying is "I'm not interested in helping myself". For some reason if the illusion of separation is there you'll help animals and people, but as soon as it's about you (which is reality), you say you won't help yourself. So, what's so wrong about giving to yourself?

[Lychee]

Reality is not 100% subjective.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

I find a lot of stray animals, capture them, get them better, and then find them homes. It's always given me tremedous satisfaction. But why the hell should I bother?

If you rearrange the sentences it seems you answer your own question:

I find a lot of stray animals, capture them, get them better, and then find them homes. But why the hell should I bother? It's always given me tremendous satisfaction.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

After the Virginia Tech massacre, Steve explained that he would look at it from an SR standpoint and wonder why he killed off parts of himself. I found it disgusting.

Finding it disgusting tells me you don't understand SR. SR is about looking at the world (actually only ever present moment awareness) from a consciousness POV. People are real, you are real, I am real, but people are not consciousness. Consciousness creates people, not the other way around.

If Steve did indeed say that the massacre was him killing off parts of himself, I would have to disagree and say that isn't SR or at least not the version I subscribe to. If an event happens like a massacre, I would consider it from a maintainence POV. The container that consciousness creates and puts everything into must be maintained, it must be kept stable and reliable. It is imperfection at it's most extreme level, hence the need for all imperfection like horror, pain and suffering and also their opposites (you can't experience pain without joy) love, joy, happiness.

SR is about identifying with consciousnes as your primary being, not the physical body/mind the observation point is. Consciousness creates everything inside awareness and everything created is of importance. If someone thinks that SR is about being God or that nothing matters except self then that person is viewing the world through ego/mind/body and consciousness isn't that, consciousness is perfect, hence the need for imperfection, the container including everything inside.

[Groundless]

If Steve did indeed say that the massacre was him killing off parts of himself, I would have to disagree and say that isn't SR or at least not the version I subscribe to.

In addition, that which is never born cannot die, or really suffer.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Lychee

Reality is not 100% subjective.

Which reality? Who's reality?

[BeyondBewildered]

I don't fully understand SR, and it seems there is obviously no consensus to exactly what the theory is, and if people are real people or not. Everything I've read from Pavlina leads me to beleive he sees people as reflections of himself. The Virg. Tech comment can be found on this thread. http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/i...=virginia+tech

" I don't have time to go into details, but to me the shooting can easily be interpreted as a symbolic reflection of what I experienced over the weekend, killing off old parts of myself I was ready to let go of. Death is often symbolic of change. The death toll of 33 is also significant for me because it was my age when I started StevePavlina.com "

He certainly doesn't seem concerned at all about the actual people, because it doesn't appear that he considers them real people, more like shards of himself. I'm pretty sure he's also said he doesn't watch the news, and he doesn't really know what to do with all of the money he generates. I find it all connected. His view of SR is all about him, other people aren't their own people, they symbolize a part of him.

I'm integrating a subjective view into objective reality, atm. I'm just trying to understand a POV like Steve's. Because, honestly, it's tempting.

Dharma, I don't find a problem with giving to myself. It's just a question of do I want to give myself a homeless shelter for reflections of myself, or do I want to give this perspective of myself a nice year long vacation in Europe.

Openeyes, I get satisfaction from knowing that I've substituted happiness for suffering in an animal's life. If that animal is just a reflection of myself, it kind of loses the appeal.

I appreciate all of the replies

[Groundless]

I don't know where everyone gets this idea that other people don't exist. Is it not obvious they are conscious? If they are reflections of you and you are conscious, they are conscious. You feel, they feel

I am conscious, but I cannot be conscious of myself.

Only as Pure Consciousness am I conscious of anything.
Only Pure Consciousness is conscious of anything, for only as Pure Consciousness am I myself conscious.
Therefore only as Pure Consciousness does anything exist. There is no other consciousness, no other "mind."
Everything that seems other than Pure Consciousness, i.e. every "object" of consciousness-myself, you, thought, or object "perceived" is a notion in Pure Consciousness. But, why does Pure Consciousness have notions?

We are all aspects of one another.

Heavily borrowed from Wei Wu Wei Why Lazarus Laughed

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

His view of SR is all about him

No, from what I've read, his view of SR is about consciousness, if you follow SR in theory, then you identify with consciousness, not your mind/body. It's never about one individual other than from an observer POV, it's about consciousness.

other people aren't their own people, they symbolize a part of him.

Other people are parts of consciousness created by consciousness to interact with, so every person in conscious awareness is important because they are a part of consciousness. Remember, in SR theory consciousness creates people including the observer of all the people.

One of the best explanations of SR, read them thoroughly and then keep reading them until you get it. It's a noodle baker, but it's very empowering.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ve-reality-qa/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ve-reality-qa/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-reality-qa-3/

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

Openeyes, I get satisfaction from knowing that I've substituted happiness for suffering in an animal's life. If that animal is just a reflection of myself, it kind of loses the appeal.

But that animal IS you. Its physical form is made of consciousness, your (our) consciousness. It's not an empty shell.

In reflection this is what you're showing yourself: "When I see myself suffering I take action and care for myself." That's all. (Ok, this goes a lot deeper in the sense of why am I showing myself this now? But that is not for this discussion.)

Reflection is only valid in the present moment. Just because you help homeless shelters now doesn't mean something negative will happen in the future if you stop supporting them for a year and take a year in Europe.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

If we are all part of one consciousness (as I am understanding what everyone's saying -- correct me if I'm wrong) then wouldn't it make even more sense to help others because we are all one? It's not so much that you are ultimately helping yourself by helping others (selfishly) but that you are helping all consciousness?

Also, I don't think it would be a bad thing to tour Europe for a year. Can I come?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/i...=virginia+tech

" I don't have time to go into details, but to me the shooting can easily be interpreted as a symbolic reflection of what I experienced over the weekend, killing off old parts of myself I was ready to let go of. Death is often symbolic of change. The death toll of 33 is also significant for me because it was my age when I started StevePavlina.com "

I think Steve wasn't thinking when he wrote that. If you take the shooting and reflect it inside of you, your guts will turn in nots because what really happened was a difficult thing and killed off people that haven't lived as much as they could have. The real way to internalize that as a reflection is to see something inside that is like that. Something that got killed before there was a chance for it to be complete. It was tradjic outside and inside. It was not tradjic outside and glorious inside. That is not consisteint with Steve' own ideas. He should have re-written that or made acknowledgements to posters saying this.

He certainly doesn't seem concerned at all about the actual people, because it doesn't appear that he considers them real people, more like shards of himself. I'm pretty sure he's also said he doesn't watch the news, and he doesn't really know what to do with all of the money he generates. I find it all connected. His view of SR is all about him, other people aren't their own people, they symbolize a part of him.

Even the great ones make mistakes or follow strange paths.

I'm integrating a subjective view into objective reality, atm. I'm just trying to understand a POV like Steve's. Because, honestly, it's tempting.

The subjective view is really all we have. Everything you experience is only your experience. That's what subjective means. Objectivity is some sort of persistent illusion (supposedley) - it's duality or our fall from Eden or ego seperativeness, defining things as outside of Self. From the spiritual view, objectivity is not present because there is a oneness from the spiritual realm. There is no seperate seer seeing that which is seen. The is no way to see without the seen there too.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

If we are all part of one consciousness

You have said it correctly;
We are all part of one consciousness.

The problem everyone is having is the word consciousness.

While this is correct to say consciousness, due to our limited worldview, (that and false religious teachings) we misunderstand that word.

I submit using the word backdrop. (For lack of a better word.)
Then it becomes;
We are all part of one backdrop.

Now. What is this 'we'?

Infinite "I am's"

Every 'I am' is aware, infinite, and eternal. Part of this backdrop.

Max is infinitely correct when he says to get rid of thought.
When you get rid of thought...............you see that you are an infinitely vast "nothingess".

But not 'nothingess' in the limited sense, rather 'nothingness' that is Everythingness.

And you become anythingness thru choice, which then activates thought.


.
.

[Angela]

What is "not real" about an aspect of YOU? If a person or cat is in your consciousness, what's not real about that, and what's not to care about? In fact, your awareness of the person or cat makes it real and is an indication that you already care about it. That person or cat is an aspect of you.

You wouldn't say, "my toes are not part of my soul, so why should I take care of my toes?!" It's all together now. If you become aware of the oneness of it all, isn't that all the more incentive to love, take care of, and be grateful for all that you are aware of?

[BeyondBewildered]

What makes something in my conciousness? My awareness of it? I'm told there are more than 6 billion people on this planet, but I don't know them. I'm told more than half of them live on pittance a day. I'm told 20,000 to 40,000 children die every day. But they aren't dying in my front yard. I don't know any individuals. To me, that is just an alarming figure. Are the people that I have no perception of real? Do they become real when I become aware of a problem? Are people I don't know experiencing hunger while I'm experiencing satisfaction, or not?

Steve doesn't watch the news, or seem to expose himself to any negative social issues. If it's not in your reality, it doesn't count, right? I should just become less aware of world problems and they'll go away, because there is nothing but happy thoughts and fluffy feelings in my immediate reality.

I'm not having this problem with people and animals that I actually encounter. I mean SR thinking can make me care less on a global scale.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

I mean SR thinking can make me care less on a global scale.

Maybe that's true. Maybe not. Why is it important? What do you care about now? Do you want to care about something else? You can if you want to.

You are free to believe or disbelieve anything you choose. You are free to care about or disregard anything you choose. What's all this "should" stuff?

Be present to the moment you're in, and you'll see what the next right action is. What do you care about now, BeyondBewildered? What is true for you right now?

[BeyondBewildered]

Well, what is important to me right now is becoming happy, peaceful, and having a greater variety of physical experiences from this first-person perspective of consciousness. I want to rid myself of worry for the suffering of others. I don't want to think about where the ginger cat is when I'm happy in my bed at night. I don't want to wonder what the faces of all the starving children look like. I want Iraq to not exist at all. I want sickos to stop raping and killing little girls. So if I never read anything more about these things, completely put them out of my mind, and just do things to improve the reality I actually perceive, then it will all be better. It feels selfish and naive, but very freeing.

[Angela]

Yeah, it's almost like an addiction, isn't it? The more you worry, the more you worry! I think it is valuable for some people to go cold turkey, like Steve did with the news, because it's so easy to get caught up.

If you were happy, peaceful, and having a variety of physical experiences, what would you be doing right now?

p.s. your talk about the cats struck me, because last night a little cat walked up to me as I was entering my building, and it was so hungry for love and food; it did that curvy swervy thing that cats do around your ankles, and followed me to the door looking all pensive and melancholy. It had a collar on so I figured it must have humans nearby, but still I thought about him all night and felt guilty for not letting him in. Ended up dreaming about him. It still gives me a little pang.

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by Groundless

Which reality? Who's reality?

Reality is not one hundred percent subjective. Your consciousness controls your own life, but there is a greater consciousness present. This consciousness is objective reality which sets the laws of the universe, and therefore, has control over your own reality.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Lychee

This consciousness is objective reality which sets the laws of the universe, and therefore, has control over your own reality.

I can't subscribe to that theory, because thinking like that, gives up power, gives up control, gives up full responsibility. Might as well be a puppet on a string. Blah

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

I don't want to wonder what the faces of all the starving children look like. I want Iraq to not exist at all. I want sickos to stop raping and killing little girls. So if I never read anything more about these things, completely put them out of my mind, and just do things to improve the reality I actually perceive, then it will all be better. It feels selfish and naive, but very freeing.

You can hide the horror, but you can't deny it, it's part of the imperfect reality package. Consciousness is perfect, so it creates the container, inside that container everything is created. You can have joy, love, wonderful experiences, but you must have pain and suffering to experience all the good.

How would you know good, without bad? You can't, hence the need for bad stuff. You can get the bad stuff down to a level where it's more managable, but you can never get rid of it, for it is an essential part of the imperfection that is the container with physical reality inside. To deny the bad stuff is to deny the very reason you created the container (physical reality) in the first place.

[jasonivers]

There is a relatively easy way to grasp all the same concepts of SR, without the inclination to stop caring about others. Simply think of the "consciousness", the universal awareness, as God, and "you" are a small fraction of His awareness, as is everyone else.

That is, you are part of the universal awareness in the same way that your finger is part of you. Your finger is not "you", yet it is a part of you, and attached to and affected by the rest of you. Your finger doesn't go and injure your toe, and you should no more leave someone in suffering than your hand should refuse to grasp the heavy object that fell on your foot.

Everyone, and everything, is part of God. That includes you, the cats you rescue, and everyone you meet. So reality is subjective, and changes according to the will of God, of whom you are part. That means that your beliefs, your thoughts, are part of Him, and also capable of changing reality. Humans are, so far as I know, unique in the ability to become aware of this, and thus consciously use it.

To sum up, the more in tune with subjective reality you are, the MORE compassion you should feel, since everything is part of the same whole, and showing compassion on one part of the whole is good for the rest, as well.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by BeyondBewildered

It feels selfish and naive, but very freeing.

.......and as bizarre as it sounds, (it sounds bizarre to a mind that believes it only exists in it's physical body) ......what you say above Beyond, is the absolute truth.

As Morpheus would say, "Welcome to the real world".

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by Lychee

but there is a greater consciousness present. This consciousness is objective reality which sets the laws of the universe, and therefore, has control over your own reality.

Absolutely correct, Lychee.

.....and that "greater" consciousness is You. You're just not aware of this fact at this very moment.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

jasonivers, I really like the way you explained the concept. Thanks.