Why I believe what I do

[Zach]

As some of you know, I'm a Christian. I believe in the Bible as being an awesome manual for life. It has many tips for healthful eating, a happy lifestyle, making others happy, and a number of other things. I am particularly fond of the phrase, "do onto others as you would have them do unto you." I think the world would be a much better place if everybody followed that guideline.

From what I have observed, Christianity isn't a popular belief by many of the members of this forum. That's OK, I respect that. I could never, ever hate or think less of anybody because of what they believe. I believe that no religion or belief is 100% true, all have their own faults and errors.

What hurts me is the image that has been created about Christians. Alot of people think of Christians as the kind of people that buy TV time to beg for donations in exchange for blessings or some holy water or other nonsense like that. People abusing God and tarnishing the Christian name in exchange for monetary profit. That really bothers me to no end.

Why am I a Christian? Is it because I fear eternal torment and death? No. It's easy to see why people despise Christianity because of the threats of God's wrath and hell and whatnot. I don't believe in that at all--I believe that God is a God of love, one that extends to humans the option to live for eternity with Him. All you have to do is reach out and take it. No amount of good or bad deeds (or monetary contributions) can get you into Heaven, you are saved by grace and faith.

People ask why God is a God of love if the world is the way it is now. Well, the problems of the world isn't God's fault. It's ours. The thing about God is, he doesn't force people to do anything. He doesn't run a dictatorial government, he allows people to make their own decisions and choose their own beliefs. If you don't want him in your life, he won't force himself in. If you want to end your own life, he isn't going to stop you.

I am not a Christian because I hope to become obscenely rich through late-night infomercials or anything like that. On the contrary, I have no desire to be rich at all. Like so many people on this forum, I want very much to help people. I could care less if someone gave me a brand new BMW for my birthday. All I want is the ability to make people happy and to show them love.

I went on a mission trip to India a few months back, and it changed my life completely. I had never seen that level of poverty before (it doesn't exist in the USA), and my eyes were opened. In India, there is alot of spiritual darkness, people terrified of their gods. In the area I was, there was a problem with children at the school I stayed at being taken for sacrificing. I could never imagine something like that happening.

I was able to help bring smiles to hundreds of people while I was in India, and I can say that there's no feeling like that in the world. It feels absolutely incredible to make other people happy.

Introducing my faith to these people changed their lives as well. Instead of being in fear at all times, they now could live without being afraid of the demands of their 2,000+ gods, instead they can live in peace. They now have hope, a reason to keep living and to be happy, they have something to look forward to instead of being bothered with what they'll be in their next life, being on an endless cycle of reincarnation. That's one good thing about my Christian beliefs I guess.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I really couldn't attempt to channel spirits or talk to the dead, or believe in my consciousness staying here on earth after I die. That just scares me. I don't want to talk to someone's angry ghost, or worry about an entity feeding off of me. As for my consciousness remaining, it would hurt me to no end continuing to see people suffer and die over and over forever.

About the popular Christian belief that spirits go to God right after they die..I do not believe that. The Bible (God's word) says that, "..the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing.." My faith believes that when humans die, they stay in the ground, and their "consciousness" remains dormant until they are brought back to life when Jesus returns. Kind of complicated, and probably doesn't seem possible to alot of people .

Anyways, that's a brief (maybe not so brief!) summary of my beliefs. If you have any questions or contradicting beliefs, please feel free to share!

[elainevdw]

Hi Zach,

I find it funny that I'm asking you this, since I was a pretty tight Christian not very long ago myself. But it was one of my biggest struggles. Do you believe in hell? If so, can you describe it (in the way you described spritual dormancy until the return of Christ), and tell me how you cope with it?

[Adam]

Zach, thank you. That is one of the best representations of Christianity that I have ever seen. I really wish that your views were portrayed more often in the media, so that it could be an example to people, of whatever spiritual path, to let them know that intollerance isn't a requirement for religion.

[Zach]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Hi Zach,

I find it funny that I'm asking you this, since I was a pretty tight Christian not very long ago myself. But it was one of my biggest struggles. Do you believe in hell? If so, can you describe it (in the way you described spritual dormancy until the return of Christ), and tell me how you cope with it?

Hell is a very, very controversial topic. I think the most widely believed concept of "hell" is a place where "bad" people go for eternal torment. Once you get there you're pretty much stuck there for all eternity, burning, getting poked by Satan, whatever nonsense like that

I definitely do not believe "hell" to be like this. There is not, and will never be a literal hell somewhere out in space, under the earth's crust, or anywhere else. It just doesn't make sense.

For one, if God is so loving and caring, why would he send people to be tortured for eternity, while all the "good" people stand by and watch, make little jokes, and giggle at the scene?

This section of a Wikipedia page gives a pretty good explanation of my beliefs. A quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Furthermore, SDA's say the concept of an everlasting torture chamber, presided over by God, terribly misrepresents God's true character of love, justice and free will. How could a God of love, torture people forever? How could a God of justice, punish a few years of sin with an infinity of torture? How could a God who is committed to free will force a person to stay alive throughout eternity and torture them for ever and ever?

Second, it is commonly believed that Satan (the devil) is the ruler of Hell and is the main interrogator. In the Bible it says that he will be destroyed, so then why would he be an immortal torturer?

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

SDA's say that an ever burning hell would make Christ's victory on the cross only a partial victory. Hebrews 2:14 says that Jesus' death made it possible for Him (Jesus Christ) to "destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil." The Bible makes it clear Christ's victory over Satan is a total victory. If that is true, then why would God have to settle for a stalemate with sin, with the screams and cries of sinners and Satan echoing through the universe for all eternity? SDA's say that since Christ's victory over Satan was total and complete, one day the universe will be cleansed of all sin and sinners. It will then be restored to its former sinless state.

Thirdly, here is another quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Finally, SDA’s believe that God will create a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21:1, Isaiah 65:17) and “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4. The text says "all" crying and sorrow and pain and death and tears will be "wiped away". SDA’s say there will not be an ever burning hell where those things go on forever. The entire universe will have been restored to its original sinless state. Sin and sinners will be no more and every heart will throb with joy as the redeemed gaze on the face of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ who saved them by His grace. Adventists conclude that it will then be clear that in the entire war between God and Satan, God will have never violated His character of love and justice and He will never have violated mankind's free will.

If God says that in his word, the Bible, then it is truth. God never changes, so he never changes his promises to us. That quote says, "God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” How could that be true if screams from hell can be heard in the distance?

I believe that the concept of hell and purgatory was created in the early 300s as a result of Roman emperors mixing their pagan concepts with Christian beliefs. Eventually these beliefs continued until the Roman Catholic Church was established, and continues to this day for many of the Christian denominations.

If I'm not mistaken, Roman Catholics believe that once a person dies, their spirit immediately goes either to Purgatory to be tortured until their "sins are paid for". And during this time, the friends and loved ones of this poor soul continue to pray that the soul doesn't have to spend long in purgatory. If the soul is cleansed by then, it gets go to to heaven. Otherwise, it's down to the big oven . And, this concept was a result of the blending of ancient Roman paganism and Christian beliefs.

I completely reject this view, as I said earlier that the soul or consciousness of a person remains dormant once they die. They become completely unaware, unconscious of their surroundings until the return of Christ, and they are judged.

Now, about my views of hell. I believe that "hell" is the cleansing of the earth after the return of Christ, when all evil is erased from history, all pain is obliterated, all suffering is eliminated forever. It is also when those who have not accepted Jesus' invitation are destroyed. Jesus says that everybody has a choice for either life, or death. All we have to do for eternal life in paradise is to accept the invitation.

As I said earlier, God is a god of free choice. He allows us to choose to be with him, or not. Eternal life is like a birthday present waiting to be opened, all you need to do is unwrap it.

I hope I explained this as understandable and brief as possible, and explained myself fully, and also that I didn't offend anybody. It can be quite difficult to comprehend this topic sometimes.

If anybody has more questions please feel free to ask them.

[Zach]

Originally Posted by Adam

Zach, thank you. That is one of the best representations of Christianity that I have ever seen. I really wish that your views were portrayed more often in the media, so that it could be an example to people, of whatever spiritual path, to let them know that intollerance isn't a requirement for religion.

Thank you for your compliment. If everybody would just knock it off with these "crusades", "holy wars", forced conversions, and whatever, and instead focused time (and money) on real-world problems and such, it would be really great.

It bothers me when people call themselves Christians and try to scare people, force them into converting, and fill people with nonsense in order to get money and more members.

Christians are followers of Christ (hence the Christ in Christian), so therefore we should follow his example, right? He says that we should welcome people with open arms (regardless of race, beliefs, nationality, etc) with kindness and generosity...with no force or intimidation involved...

There I go rambling again..

[Keith]

A couple of thoughts:

Originally Posted by Zach

I am particularly fond of the phrase, "do onto others as you would have them do unto you." I think the world would be a much better place if everybody followed that guideline.

There is a bit of a trap in that particular phrase; what you would have others do unto you is not necessarily the same as what they would have you do unto them. At its most extreme, following the Golden Rule can lead to logic like "I would rather someone kill me than not have God in my life, therefore I should kill others who do not have God in their life"!!

Often others have their own way that works well for them, that you would never choose to have done unto you. That doesn't mean that you should try to change them.

I'll take your word that the people you converted were genuinely unhappy with their old beliefs. However, please be aware that this will not always be the case, and the right answer for you is not necessarilly the right answer for all.

P.S. I am not a Christian, though I have been and I think there is some merit to the words of Jesus.

An excerpt from "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle, that I feel is relevant:

"Although all spiritual teachings originate from the same source, once they become verbalised and written down they are obviously no more than collections of words - and a word is nothing but a signpost."

I believe the Bible is the words of men, trying to put into words their experience of divinity; often second or third hand. It is, in my strong opinion, not Truth, but a signpost. Jesus did not write a word of the Bible, and the first book of the New Testament was written decades after his death. (I recommend "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism: A Bishop Rethinks the Meaning of Scripture" by Bishop Shelby Spong for more on the origin of different books of the Bible).

To finish with another Tolle quote:
"There is, and always has been, only one master, who manifests in many different forms. I am that master, and so are you, once you are able to access the Source within".

[Jeff Lilly]

Zach, you make a lot of interesting points. One thing I found very interesting is that you have an implicit belief underlying all your others: that you get to decide which parts of the Bible to believe, and how to believe it.

For example, do you follow all the rules and regulations laid out for the Israelites in the Old Testament? All the various sacrifices of animals, and fasting on certain days, and so forth? You say that God is a God of love; but in many places in the Old Testament, he doesn't seem particularly nice. There are even ambiguities within the New Testament. What was the role of Mary Magdalene? Did Jesus have older brothers (as is stated) or was Mary really a true virgin (and they were stepbrothers)? Why did Jesus call himself, again and again, "the Son of Man", and never call himself "the Son of God"? (Sure he referred to God as his father many times, but just about every Christian does that.) Jesus seems to be very disapproving of moneylending; is the whole business immoral? What about the gospels of Thomas and Judas? I'm sure this is all stuff you've heard before.

It's hard to interpret many passages of the Bible unambiguously, which is why there are so many sects of Christians. Each sect has found its own satisfactory answers to these questions.


Most Christians I've met implicitly believe that they can interpret the Bible in a way that feels most wholesome to them. Personally I think it's an excellent outlook. A personal relationship with the divine, with occasional reference to religious texts, seems to be a healthy combination.

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by Zach

Now, about my views of hell. I believe that "hell" is the cleansing of the earth after the return of Christ, when all evil is erased from history, all pain is obliterated, all suffering is eliminated forever. It is also when those who have not accepted Jesus' invitation are destroyed. Jesus says that everybody has a choice for either life, or death. All we have to do for eternal life in paradise is to accept the invitation.

Thanks for the detailed response and Wiki article. I could have used that when I was 19!

Another question regarding your particular belief -- more of a claification: Christians are resurrected to live eternally in a world cleansed of suffering, but non-Christians are deleted from existence? Therefore, they're not doomed to eternal suffering; they just no longer exist in any form, neither body, spirit nor dormancy?

[Zach]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Thanks for the detailed response and Wiki article. I could have used that when I was 19!

Another question regarding your particular belief -- more of a claification: Christians are resurrected to live eternally in a world cleansed of suffering, but non-Christians are deleted from existence? Therefore, they're not doomed to eternal suffering; they just no longer exist in any form, neither body, spirit nor dormancy?

Sorry, I'm just on my way out so I need to keep this brief..I'll try to write a more detailed response later tonight.

I don't think that ONLY Christians will be given eternal life, I believe that people of many religions and beliefs will be in heaven. Why? Because if they are believing and doing what they believe as right, God will understand. God isn't going to destroy people for being ignorant.

For example, medieval Christians were not capable of reading the Bible themselves, so they had to listen and believe the local priest/bishop/leader's interpretation of it. If the priest led them the wrong way, is it their fault? No. They were only doing what they thought God told them to do.

What about an African bushman? If he has never heard about Christianity, is he going to ultimately die? I don't think so. Like I said, God doesn't punish people for being ignorant.

So then, I said that those who accept Jesus will be given eternal life. How can you do this if you've never heard of him? Jesus says that,

"The King will answer them,'Most certainly I tell you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." -Matthew 25:40

Meaning that how you treat people on earth is how Jesus feels you treat him. I believe that you can "accept" Jesus by how you treat people, even if you don't know him, as you are (or are not) expressing his qualities, his kindness, understanding, and generosity. You can actually have faith in him, even if you haven't "met" him.

And yes, as I said earlier I don't believe in eternal suffering. I like to base all of my beliefs on God's word (not man's), as I feel that's the only safe way to go. There just isn't evidence in the Bible to support an eternal hell.

Just one quick support for this. Immortality is a gift from God, a "reward" I suppose. Humans, are ultimately mortal--body, consciousness, spirit, etc. Once humans die (as all humans do), we remain completely dormant (sleeping) until the return of Christ, which is when the "righteous" are resurrected to live with Christ.

As for the "wicked", there will not be an unending hell or torment. I said that immortality is a gift from God to those who in the end believe and accept him. Therefore, the others do not receive such a gift (and remain mortal), and then do not exist--in any form.

Some more reading:

Views on heaven

More Wikipedia

Even more Wikipedia

(more to come when I get home)

[elainevdw]

Thanks, Zach! That's a great clarification. I grew up Lutheran, and my dad's family is Calvinist (predestination) so I'm sure you can understand where all these questions are coming from. The simplified argument, "People will go to heaven if they're good; if they're bad, they won't" never satisfied me because it didn't seem very well thought-out. I'm glad to have the chance to discuss the issue with someone who obviously has thought it out at some length. You're a gem!

[Luciddd]

Christianity refutation come from a serious misundestanding that makes makes it seem God punish bad guys forever that if you dont worship him you are tortured, and that humans cant evolve into more than humans and cant never attain fully oneness with God like Christ and Holy Ghost do, such a view that humans will always remain limited and that life in heaven is pretty much the same as here but with immortality and a few privileges make cause a big misconception.

First people must understand bible was written in a bloodshed era so some authours while inspired may have also poured some of their bias into the text. Second thanks to our friend emperor Constantine a lot of books that should be in the "canon" of the bible were taken out by him because it were too controversial some of these beign the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas where ideas lik oneness with God etc. are displayes his love I need no to say more Jesus speak for himself.

Basically OP you could say a large part of the misconception lie in the Nicea Coucil and emperor Constantine.