Do you really know what you know?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Today I had an exam and at the end of it, found myself waiting for 45 minutes until I could leave. So I got to thinking, mainly about The Matrix. I was thinking about mainly...”Freeing your mind” and I started to stare at my half-full bottle of water and I tranced out a bit, My thoughts became more singular and easier to follow and I realised that what I perceive to be water outside of my body, is actually happening in my mind. In other words, there was no water, it was all just an illusion created by my brain.

So why couldn't I effect it.

Why wasn't it jumping around at my command, what was stopping me?

My fears, my beliefs. Even though in that moment I knew intellectually there was no water. My beliefs, my gut, still told me that water was there. I reasoned I would have to meditate on the belief of Non-Duality some more.

But that's not my point...oh no.

My point is this. I freed my mind in that moment, but when I did I realised before, what I thought was free, was merely another trap I got myself stuck in.

How many of you out there have fallen into the trap of thinking you know what you know?

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

My point is this. I freed my mind in that moment, but when I did I realised before, what I thought was free, was merely another trap I got myself stuck in.

Careful now, if you go too much further and figure it all out the universe will roll out it's next, more complex iteration to keep us all guessing. Of course “us all” don't exist but... oop, better stop there.

Seriously though, I think you're starting to reach the point where the mind runs in circles. This will probably sound like a cop out answer, and even writing about it will reduce it to a mental concept (which has the problems you describe), but I think the only place to go from there is “within”. The place where there is perception without the trap you describe; Feeling-realisation, non-duality, “presence”, etc.

I’ve very briefly experienced such states at varying levels of depth myself, but I’m still far too green to discuss it with any authority. I can only point to it with words with the disclaimer “I’m a newb, whatever I say is probably wrong”, hehe.

Interesting topic, though. I definitely like the direction the SC&A (Spirituality, Consciousness, & Awareness) board/forum has been moving in recently. I’m more of an exploratory, “what if?” sort of person then a healthy argument/debate sort of person, so this is right up my alley.

Both exploration and debate are useful, I just find that it's often too easy for a (healthy) argument/debate to move away from the productive “use argument/debate as a mirror to reflect yourself so you can learn/grow/comb your consciousness” mode and towards the “I'm right, you're wrong", go-go ego attachment!” mode.

You can grow from both, but the later is like over-using a car engine without maintaining it -- it will simply overheat and you won't be getting very far until it cools off again. It's better to maintain the engine, keep the water topped up, and use it in such a way that it doesn't over heat (ie. not over-revving it, etc) so you can travel for longer without it overheating.

(And yes, I'm aware I artfully dodged the question in the final sentence of your post... it's what I do. )

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

Today I had an exam and at the end of it, found myself waiting for 45 minutes until I could leave. So I got to thinking, mainly about The Matrix. I was thinking about mainly...”Freeing your mind” and I started to stare at my half-full bottle of water and I tranced out a bit, My thoughts became more singular and easier to follow and I realised that what I perceive to be water outside of my body, is actually happening in my mind. In other words, there was no water, it was all just an illusion created by my brain.

So why couldn't I effect it.

Why wasn't it jumping around at my command, what was stopping me?

My fears, my beliefs. Even though in that moment I knew intellectually there was no water. My beliefs, my gut, still told me that water was there. I reasoned I would have to meditate on the belief of Non-Duality some more.

But that's not my point...oh no.

My point is this. I freed my mind in that moment, but when I did I realised before, what I thought was free, was merely another trap I got myself stuck in.

How many of you out there have fallen into the trap of thinking you know what you know?

Interesting post, and I also have a lot of "zone out" moments where I feel like I'm coming out of a deep-sleep dream when coming back to the present moment... Kind of hard to explain but it's a strange feeling.

The thing that I wonder though about what you're saying is, from the point of view you're talking about, why is it that the bottle of water which you're only seeing in your mind looks just like a bottle of water to everyone else? Why does the coffee cup on my desk automatically look like a coffee cup to anyone else who sees it instead of some other object? Sorry if this rambling doesn't make sense...

[Takuin Minamoto]

How many of you out there have fallen into the trap of thinking you know what you know?

The problem that I had with it nearly killed me. I always used to think in terms of what "I" knew. That somehow, the "I" was separate from the rest of knowledge. There seemed to be a center, and for whatever reason, that center took the helm and made itself mightier than the same knowledge it was composed of.

Eventually, I questioned all of that. What is "I" composed of? Isn't it built from our experience, our cultures, and our traditions? If that is true, then doesn't that mean the "I" is handed to us? Coming from outside of us? If we are told what "I" is, and we accept it, how is that different from any other knowledge we might possess? Is there some "I" that is different from the rest of the knowledge in this organism? It was this sort of questioning led to my realization on December 1st, 2006.

I freed my mind in that moment, but when I did I realised before, what I thought was free, was merely another trap I got myself stuck in.

Freedom is elusive because the freedom we believe in does not exist. Our beliefs about freedom keep us from it. There is absolutely nothing to be free from psychologically. It is certainly easy to fall into the trap of thinking it is so, however. When the "I" sets itself up for business, it thinks of itself as somehow being different from the rest of knowledge. But "I" is composed of the same stuff it is trying to escape from. That would be like trying to physically escape from yourself.

I reasoned I would have to meditate on the belief of Non-Duality some more.

I'm all for meditation, but be careful. If you believe in non-duality and are attached to the idea of it, and set that up a system of belief for non-duality in yourself, then isn't that duality?

If one is non-dualistic, can there be a point of view based on thought or knowledge? Can there be a point of view at all?

I'm just asking.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

My point is this. I freed my mind in that moment, but when I did I realised before, what I thought was free, was merely another trap I got myself stuck in.

How many of you out there have fallen into the trap of thinking you know what you know?

I think it was Gurdjieff who once said something to the effect of, the first step to waking up is to realize you are asleep.

That's only the first step though, mind you. I've had dreams where even though I've reached the profound conclusion that I was dreaming, I still can't wake up of my own volition. Sometimes you have to wait for the dream to play out -- to show what it has to show.

Gurdjieff also said, "Without self knowledge, without understanding the working and functions of his machine, man cannot be free, he cannot govern himself and he will always remain a slave."

Wise one, that Gurdjieff.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

How many of you out there have fallen into the trap of thinking you know what you know?

You are so incredibly cunning, clever and everything, you are consciousness and as The Big C you create on the fly, instantly and eternally. It sounds mind bending, because it is, it's not really for the mind to fully grasp. This is really important to remember, to maintain the complete illusion of the physical reality experience you have to create all sorts of illusions that keep the mind busy. You can strip away much of the illusion to create better and live better, but you'll never know everything, for that is perfection and that is not the point of imperfection which is this physical reality.

As for the water trick, just like the bending spoons, it can be done, but how will you do it and effectively not disrupt you complete reality package?

[Akashic_Librarian]

I think I will upgrade my reality package, there is this really cool skill I want, and I can't get it until I pay £39,00 a month, but I do get up to 5meg broadband AND free line rental....so its all good.


Nah seriously...

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate it. It was just one of those moments where things seem to make more sense lol!

[Cassie]

On a more concrete level, much of what we take for granted as 'fact' is also misleading. This is not to say that certain universal truths do not exist, however, our intrepretation of these truths as inherently flawed human beings is faulty.

The potentiality which exists outside the confines of our limited, imperfect minds is excruciating ... yet electrifying.

I will always be critical of what I think I know because it is being construed by a less than perfect vessel. Ahem.

[ExploringTheMatrix]

Freedom is elusive because the freedom we believe in does not exist. Our beliefs about freedom keep us from it. There is absolutely nothing to be free from psychologically. It is certainly easy to fall into the trap of thinking it is so, however. When the "I" sets itself up for business, it thinks of itself as somehow being different from the rest of knowledge. But "I" is composed of the same stuff it is trying to escape from. That would be like trying to physically escape from yourself.

This is what one non-dualist discovered. His last step was releasing the desire to be free. At that point, he embraced what is.

I'm all for meditation, but be careful. If you believe in non-duality and are attached to the idea of it, and set that up a system of belief for non-duality in yourself, then isn't that duality?

If one is non-dualistic, can there be a point of view based on thought or knowledge? Can there be a point of view at all?

I'm just asking.

No, in non-duality there is no point of view. Pure is-ness. No I, no mind, just simply what is. The world unfolds before you in each moment, how that happens is unknown, the great mystery.

Separation, labeling, the I. These things exist in the mind. Go beyond the mind and just see what is, and there is only awareness. Not I am awareness, just awareness or beingness.

So consequently, that must be my true nature, the real "I", that which is aware. And in the absence of something to perceive, is there awareness? Perhaps this is a flaw in non-duality, it conceives it is also that which is perceived. However, my understanding is that this is something that is seen or felt intuitively.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Akashic_Librarian

...I realised that what I perceive to be water outside of my body, is actually happening in my mind. In other words, there was no water, it was all just an illusion created by my brain.

Nice, all parts of perception are really one. There is not a seperate seer seeing the seen. There is not a seperate seeing of the seen object by a seer. There is not a seperate seen object apart from the seer seeing it. Non-duality exists when we drop our boundary of objects being seperate from You.

My point is this. I freed my mind in that moment, but when I did I realised before, what I thought was free, was merely another trap I got myself stuck in.

How many of you out there have fallen into the trap of thinking you know what you know?

I don't see your trap. Being free in a moment is being free. The part about thinking about it and taking it apart is snapping out of being free. Trying to know something may not be the goal of non-duality experience. It might be the opposite - the less one holds beliefs of any kind, the more apt one is to experience non-duality. It's our beliefs that create duality, in other words. I believe I'm an ego that can define things as outside of myself.

[jasonivers]

Forgive me, as I am a newcomer, but what is the point of existing without a point of view, of being aware without having anything to be aware of? I believe that my beliefs affect my reality (And because I believe this, they do? ), but, unlike most of those whom I have read on these forums, I do NOT believe that I contain everything. I believe more along the lines that my beliefs have a force which can affect reality around me. On the other hand, I also believe that there ARE other people, and their beliefs can also affect the world around me (Or around them, but how am I to know about that? I can only know what it is that I perceive.) So you say that the "I" is artificial, but I don't see that.

If you can give me some sort of reason why I would be interested in an existence that does NOT include the concept of other people, and by extension, "I", please do. I simply haven't seen any such reason yet.

-------------------------

To get a better idea of what I think, if you wish you can check out my blog.

[Groundless]

Seriously though, I think you're starting to reach the point where the mind runs in circles. This will probably sound like a cop out answer, and even writing about it will reduce it to a mental concept (which has the problems you describe), but I think the only place to go from there is “within”. The place where there is perception without the trap you describe; Feeling-realisation, non-duality, “presence”, etc.

These forums and the constant posting here lead away from realization but yet many ideas point to realisation if you don't get attached to them. I fully agree with Bruce's quoted statement above.

I’ve very briefly experienced such states at varying levels of depth myself, but I’m still far too green to discuss it with any authority. I can only point to it with words with the disclaimer “I’m a newb, whatever I say is probably wrong”, hehe.

Me too.

[Groundless]

Personally, I have followed Maharaj in that I ask myself:

Who am I?
Who is experiencing this {fillin the blank}?

I then focus on the statement "I AM"

What does it mean when Maharaj's guru said to focus exclusively on the statement I AM? Where does this point? If everyhting else is false - what does this mean?

There is a lot of mental masturbation on these boards and there are some extremely brilliant insights from people who obviously care. The pursuit here will not llikely ead to the result of realization.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by jasonivers

but what is the point of existing without a point of view........ I do NOT believe that I contain everything.

Good question about point of view.
Look at it this way.

You are nothingness, but nothingness in the sense of Everythingness.

Get rid of your thinking for a sec and you see this.
Tell yourself to just Sit and Listen and Watch whatever you are looking at, and not think.
As your doing this........... ask yourself who and what are you.

What you come up with will be fascinating.

---

Points of view "snap" your nothingness to experience experiences.

[jasonivers]

My point was not that it's not something interesting to try. My question is why would would I want to actively try to stay in this state? It's the things that are "not me" that are interesting. If I ever could become truly aware and knowing of all things, what would be left to do?

I don't see the reason why I would want to try to achieve a state where there is NOTHING to do but be aware of things of which I'm already aware. There is nowhere left to grow, and your journey is over. Since the journey, for me at least, IS the destination, the thought of being at the end, the final destination of my path of growth, is... empty.

Speaking of which, though I know it makes me a heretic on this site, I don't actually agree that there is a true state of non-duality. If, at the end of everything, everything is you, then what is you? If you are everything, containing all things, knowledge, possibilities... then you are also nothing. Nothing has meaning without duality. It makes no sense to refer to anything, including knowledge, thought, and even awareness, without duality. If there is such a thing as "awareness", there also has to exist a "not awareness" or there is all just one indistinguishable mass, which is the same as to say there is nothing at all.

Oh, and in reply to infinitethoughts...

Get rid of your thinking for a sec and you see this.
Tell yourself to just Sit and Listen and Watch whatever you are looking at, and not think.
As your doing this........... ask yourself who and what are you.

What you come up with will be fascinating.

I assume you mean to ask myself those questions, and then listen to what comes up in the silence. I have done this, and am certain I will do so again in the future. The answer that comes up for me is that I am a PART of everything, but so are other people. I am not all of everything (If I was, why would I bother to reply to myself?), and am not solely responsible for all of creation, but rather a part of it, and responsible for that which I create (I do, in fact, believe that by imparting energy to our beliefs, we can affect reality.) within the whole, which, in general, consists of the sum of the energy placed in the beliefs of all people, while being based around a core that God (Yes, I believe in God.) created for it all to be anchored in a shared experience/reality.
---------------------------------

More thoughts from me at my blog.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by jasonivers

Oh, and in reply to infinitethoughts...

The answer that comes up for me is that I am a PART of everything, but so are other people.

By formulating this answer, you reverted back to thinking.

Maybe I should have phrased the exercise differently.
Let me try again.

Tell yourself to just Sit and Listen and Watch whatever you are looking at, and not think.
Just sit and Listen and Watch.
As your doing this...........you'll start to notice something.

You notice you are this "space".......this "emptiness".

This vast (no bounds) emptiness is what you are 24/7, which fills itself anytime it wants to with realities. (thought)

[jasonivers]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

You notice you are this "space".......this "emptiness".

This vast (no bounds) emptiness is what you are 24/7, which fills itself anytime it wants to with realities. (thought)

That, to me, is the "global awareness", which I conceive of as God, allowing His awareness to coalesce in my small corner of the universe. I do not disagree with the idea that you are speaking of, I just think that I am not all of it, I'm a part of it. I think I'm a part of it in the way that my finger is part of me, and yet my finger cannot claim to BE me. That does not, however, preclude me from focusing "my" awareness down to the level of my finger, however.

In a non-duality reality, which is what I think God experiences (though I don't think that term, experiences, really applies to God), everything is one, there is nothing that is not of one piece. That, however, is abstract to me... not understandable. The more I let go of the focus on "me", however, the more in tune with God's awareness I become, and the CLOSER to understanding I get. I think that if I were ever to TRULY understand it, I would cease to exist as I know existing, that I would simply be absorbed back into God, no longer aware of myself as separate. While, approaching this, and gaining some shadow of it as an experience is fantastic, as of right now, I'm not really interested in ceasing to exist, as I'm enjoying this experience, this life, this journey of growth. I may simply be growing back toward the awareness that I am a fragment of, but that does not bother me... while I am what I am, I will enjoy it.

You can say that I'm artificially limiting myself, but if I enjoy it, why not? If you play a game against someone who is not as good as you, don't you sometimes limit yourself by giving them an advantage? That very limit is what makes the game enjoyable... if you each merely played to the full limit of your ability, it would not be very entertaining, with the knowledge that the outcome was already determined. The same concept applies to my perception of reality. I do not believe I am God, but I do believe I am a part of Him (as is everyone else, so this doesn't make me think I'm better than anyone else... in fact, it's more likely to prevent such thoughts than cause them). I LIKE the experience of being part of Him, and don't, at the current moment, want to become less of a semi-separate fragment, and simply be absorbed back into the whole.

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by jasonivers

That, to me, is the "global awareness", which I conceive of as God, allowing His awareness to coalesce in my small corner of the universe. I do not disagree with the idea that you are speaking of,..........

"God, allowing His awareness"

This is just more thought.

Basically I'm asking you to quiet your mind and Observe yourself without Pre-conceived ideas.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by jasonivers

In a non-duality reality, which is what I think God experiences (though I don't think that term, experiences, really applies to God), everything is one, there is nothing that is not of one piece. That, however, is abstract to me... not understandable.

The mind is not what can understand being one with all.

The more I let go of the focus on "me", however, the more in tune with God's awareness I become, and the CLOSER to understanding I get. I think that if I were ever to TRULY understand it, I would cease to exist as I know existing, that I would simply be absorbed back into God, no longer aware of myself as separate.

What does it mean to not focus on "me"? Is that not allowing your sense of self to expand? To expand toward being one with everything? I think if you got absorbed back into God, as you say, you will have a devine life. Your body and spirit will be in synch. What do you think Jesus was doing? Did he vanish?

While, approaching this, and gaining some shadow of it as an experience is fantastic, as of right now, I'm not really interested in ceasing to exist, as I'm enjoying this experience, this life, this journey of growth. I may simply be growing back toward the awareness that I am a fragment of, but that does not bother me... while I am what I am, I will enjoy it.

I know that it is super facinating to feel just a bit of oneness. There is no end to becoming. Ceasing to exist is not the end result of being aligned with spirit. In fact you become super alive. The experience is richer.

You can say that I'm artificially limiting myself, but if I enjoy it, why not? If you play a game against someone who is not as good as you, don't you sometimes limit yourself by giving them an advantage? That very limit is what makes the game enjoyable... if you each merely played to the full limit of your ability, it would not be very entertaining, with the knowledge that the outcome was already determined.

I'm not sure where this idea started. It sounds like you are saying it's ok to limit yourself to make life more interesting. That seems opposite. I've always thought it gets more interesting to un-limit yourself, to expand your sense of self, do ditch as many beliefs as possible. Then it gets really interesting. Life is not like a game that has an oppounate that is of lesser skill so you have to dumb down to have fun. I just don't see the analogy working, fiting.

The same concept applies to my perception of reality. I do not believe I am God, but I do believe I am a part of Him (as is everyone else, so this doesn't make me think I'm better than anyone else... in fact, it's more likely to prevent such thoughts than cause them). I LIKE the experience of being part of Him, and don't, at the current moment, want to become less of a semi-separate fragment, and simply be absorbed back into the whole.

Being part of God sounds like you are thinking God is something else other than you. God is you. Spirit runs through you and that spirit is not a part of God, it is God. You can still pretend to be a seperate ego that defines everything in sight. That's what Adam started doing in the garden of Eden. That's why that story is in the Bible. It's our fall from grace that allows us to have duality. You will not be absorbed back into the whole if you grow spiritually. The ego that dies is the ego that is clingy and addictive. Being a semi-separate fragment is not how I see experience. Experience is God living through me. There is no separate fragment from being. Abstract as it is, you already are absorbed in the whole. There is only experience as a whole together. There is no way to see without having the seen. There is no seen thing without a seer.

[Liara Covert]

Watching a film like The Sixth Sensereminds us we create our own illusions all the time. The apparent surprise endings of books aren't necessarily surprises for everyone. Why do you think that is?

Perhaps different kinds of entertainment urge us to recognize why we choose to alienate ourselves from a sense of reality. I like Max Power's idea of the "reality package." Why is it some people spend their time getting busier when they don't even believe in what they're doing? Is that where illusion becomes a delusion? Hmmm...