Subjective Reality vs. Other Systems

[ExploringTheMatrix]

One thing I have been trying to figure out is whether there is a difference between Steve's subjective reality and schools like Advaita Vedanta, Zen, etc.

Virtually all spiritual schools come to the same conclusion. There is something that we would call All That Is, the Godhead, etc. The universe is a giant hologram where All That Is can reflect its nothingness by creating a something which it can experience, interact with, play games, etc. As with a hologram, every atom, being, though, etc. is infinitely interconnected with every other piece. Filter a hologram through a prism, and you have many copies, all exactly the same as each other. Change the object that is generating the hologram and each copy will change.

The universe then becomes an average of all the copies put together. All the thoughts, beliefs, etc. get melted into one giant pot. Each observer views the hologram through a slightly different mental mirror from a distinct location, but all view the same hologram. This would explain subjective reality as well - my thoughts and beliefs can change you, but you can also change me. We are the same but separate.

Within these schools, enlightenment typically consists of going beyond the mind and realizing the common awareness that is the basis of all things. The hologram is then seen with a clean mirror and the true beauty of it shines forth. The person who is enlightened knows that he and the universe are one and the same.

However this seems to be a slightly different interpretation than Steve's Subjective Reality. Both only recognize one awareness, however if I understand it correctly, non-dualism would say that myself, Steve, and a deer eating grass each have distinct experiences. We each have a personal self or viewpoint, but are the whole and the part simultaneously. While growing up through experience, social conditioning, etc. each piece comes to believe it is separate and has to wake up to its nature as being the whole.

The reason I find this question so interesting is to determine whether one can/should wake up others. In non-dualism, I can wake him (another copy of myself) up. However in Steve's reality, I'm just playing games with myself. Either way, it doesn't affect my personal experience, so maybe I should stop fiddling with meaningless questions

From my brief experiences with unity, all of these questions are fairly moot anyway since there is no thought or I in unity, only experience

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by ExploringTheMatrix

One thing I have been trying to figure out is whether there is a difference between Steve's subjective reality and schools like Advaita Vedanta, Zen, etc.

Steve's version is personalised to include and understand LoA and IM. I Take this version and drop LoA and IM and go straight to conscious choice, I figure that's what's really going on and everything else is creation, so it's in the way. Steve's version is the simpliest I've stumbled on, the others are way to mystical for me.

The universe then becomes an average of all the copies put together. All the thoughts, beliefs, etc. get melted into one giant pot. Each observer views the hologram through a slightly different mental mirror from a distinct location, but all view the same hologram. This would explain subjective reality as well - my thoughts and beliefs can change you, but you can also change me. We are the same but separate.

As I understand it, that is not correct. Nothing outside awareness exists, there are no other people on the other side of the planet creating. People don't have thoughts and people don't create, consciousness does the whole thing, consciousness creates people, not the other way around.

However this seems to be a slightly different interpretation than Steve's Subjective Reality. Both only recognize one awareness, however if I understand it correctly, non-dualism would say that myself, Steve, and a deer eating grass each have distinct experiences. We each have a personal self or viewpoint, but are the whole and the part simultaneously. While growing up through experience, social conditioning, etc. each piece comes to believe it is separate and has to wake up to its nature as being the whole.

There is no shared experience, that is denial. One consciousness, one experience

The reason I find this question so interesting is to determine whether one can/should wake up others. In non-dualism, I can wake him (another copy of myself) up. However in Steve's reality, I'm just playing games with myself. Either way, it doesn't affect my personal experience, so maybe I should stop fiddling with meaningless questions

In Steve's version and the version I subscribe to with some minor changes, the whole point of physical reality is to experience imperfection and to improve that state, thereby improving consciousness, yes it's perfect, but it wants to know imperfection to see itself as it truly is. Everything including every person is important and the manner in which you interact with them is important, for you are interacting with yourself, improving yourself, improving the state of you, improving the state of consciousness. So yes it's improtant to 'wake people up' because it improves everything.
[/QUOTE]

From my brief experiences with unity, all of these questions are fairly moot anyway since there is no thought or I in unity, only experience

I would say that experience is imperfection and the journey back to perfection, discussing it is important, because it helps the overall improvement, self inquiry is vital to move closer to perfection

[DaveTyler]

One consciousness seeing out 500 billion people and humans and insects and fish on earth, yeah shared experience.
Max seems to think God created the universe for him, why would God create one person as his ultimate and only experience lol wont happen.

Moderator Edit: Removed Forum Rules violation.
- Bruce Achterberg

[infinitethoughts]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

One consciousness seeing out 500 billion people and humans and insects and fish on earth, yeah shared experience.
Max seems to think God created the universe for him, why would God create one person as his ultimate and only experience lol wont happen.

Lol..................!
Dave you crack me up !


Why are you creating a fictitious being Lording over you?


Moderator Edit: Removed reference to deleted material.
- Bruce Achterberg

[Akashic_Librarian]

You see Dave, we are saying you are th eonly thing in existance. There is only ONE Consciousness. You seem to think we all believe we where created by God as the point of experience....perhaps you should think again.

[DaveTyler]

See that ruined my life so if I kill myself you will all die? Is that what your saying?

[Akashic_Librarian]

Dave please. You've annoyed me alot today. Just think before you type and stop trying to antagonize everyone. Stop insulting us. And start debating.

[DaveTyler]

Yeah but u know u exist so why try to make me insane by saying u dont WTF is ur intentions?

[Akashic_Librarian]

...I refuse to get angry. Just breath AL, Just breathe its ok...


Look Dave, you do NOT understand SR, do you accept that? Do you accept you know LESS about it, than some people. If you do, then ask a nice, simple question, sit back, shut up, and take peoples advice! Not mock them, their beliefs and their outloos by making Quasi-serious statments and making jokes and stupid, outrageous comments!

[DaveTyler]

I understand and I ask a sincer question:


You me everyone is ONE but my body is no more conscious than your body... Right?
I was born and should still respect my mom as a human like me? Like u want me to treat you

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ahh everything is YOU. You are everything. Thus you would treat your mom right, because you would treat yourself right.

[DaveTyler]

AAAAA YEA I UNDERSTAND SO BUT WHAT I MEAN IS THAT FROM HER PERSPECTIVE I AM HER, LIKE I AM YOU. aND YOU ARE ME AND WE BOTH SHARE THIS ONE UNIVERSE but is seperate in bodies? Everybody is a container of consciousness? Or am I STILL messing it up?

Why are you getting mad at a part of yourself that is confused and dont understand it all ?

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

One consciousness seeing out 500 billion people and humans and insects and fish on earth, yeah shared experience.
Max seems to think God created the universe for him, why would God create one person as his ultimate and only experience lol wont happen.

Dave, you don't understand SR my friend and that's okay, but we've been over this a million times and I stated a million times "I'm NOT God" there is no God creating anything, there is one consciousness, one experience, one container with one observed and one observation being created by one consciousness creator, not god.

Yes, this isn't easy to grasp, but is believing in a heaven and hell and an almighty god watching over us easy? Yikes

The big problem I think you have is you believe in a god that has created everything and that's fine, but your problem is that you think people who subscribe to SR beleive there is a god in the first place (there isn't) and that a god created a universe or consciousness just for one person (not correct either) to enjoy the belief system of SR

In the SR model, there is NO god, people are not god, people are not conscious, only consciousness is conscious and consciousness is not human, consciousness is everything, but only everything in present moment awareness. This explains why consciousness doesn't have to create everything all the time, because it only creates in present moment awareness, if it's not in awareness it doesn't exist.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

Why are you getting mad at a part of yourself that is confused and dont understand it all ?

Not mad, but frustrating to see parts of consciousness fighting itself, but ultimately that is a good thing, because it helps consciousness clarify itself.

Consciousness is perfect, so it creates imperfection (physical reality) to enjoy being imperfect. Being so clever, it creates all the denial, time, need for growth and gives up much of it's power and creates all sorts of things to maintain the exeperience.

That (too me) is SR, it's a belief system, it can't be proved, but it can be experienced, just like religion and it's not a cult It's a way to see that everything in awareness is important because everything in awareness is consciousness, including people, trees, roads, wind, sky, hate, love and thought, yes and even those naughty politicians

[DaveTyler]

Well you got the scientific saying that reality is absolute and each humans consciousness is process in the brain and when that dies the human dies and everything continue. Then theres the more spiritual ones who keep this belief and say that consciousness is your soul which will move on (depends on your beliefs/faith).

Then theres the more advanced:

Quantum Physics(boring, sucks life out of life) and theres spirituality like Advata/Buddhism nonduality which is more what u are on. It all depends on what you believe.
I mean if u sat down and read fantasy for weeeeks and made up a imagination in your mind that these fantasy creatures exist. Your mind would eventually "believe it" until it has "reentered" reality for a while cause all u had done was thinking about this so long its all thats filling your mind.
I think humans should just lay back, stop questining, start experiencing, lower their ego, boost their compassion and unconditional love.

Many will argue "well its fun being selfish" yeah, but loving is a whole nother experience

[medaille]

Objective reality says the body contains the consciousness. Thus the body has to come from some where (ie God (religion) or it just exists (science))

Subjective reality says that consciousness created the body and the mind (ego). Consciousness could be compared to the God in the above example as it serves the same functionality (at least in my understanding).

If you were to look at the levels of consciousness (steve has a post about it somewhere) you would see god consciousness on the upper end and you would have more misunderstandings (more fear) as you move down the levels. So you are a sliver of this consciousness (you being your body/mind/earthly understanding) and other people are also portions of consciousness. Your consciousness can vary and you can get closer or farther away from the God consciousness. You will often hear people making reference to your "higher self" which I take to mean your sliver of consciousness after it has learned all that can be learned and thus is the same as God consciousness. As time moves on in 3d reality you eventually become God, which is the same as becoming yourself. Other people also become theirself.

Since you are god (consciousness) or at least part god you have creative power over your reality, both in the practical sense (like I worked to get what I wanted) or in the LOA sense (I resonated with what I wanted and it came to me). Both are creative and really are the same thing because when you work for something you start to resonate with what you need for the LOA. Since you are creative, and can help shape reality, you can influence others just like they influence you. I tend to think of this as you always have conscious control of your conscious, but your unconscious (80% of the decisions most people make) is able to be influenced more by external sources of consciousness. Thus you can influence people that aren't very good at controlling their unconscious with their conscious.

I hope that made sense. I'm certainly not the foremost expert on consciousness, but that's how I see things now.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by medaille

Thus you can influence people that aren't very good at controlling their unconscious with their conscious.

Every person within present moment conscious awareness is a part of consciousness, but no person is conscious, people aren't conscious, only consciousness is conscious. People are part of the imperfect illusion called physical reality (consciousness is perfect, so hence the requirement for imperfection) and people are exactly the same as the physical reality, people including the physical body/mind are creation, but they are not creative.
This is an important distinction in the creative process.

[ExploringTheMatrix]

Originally Posted by Max Power

People are part of the imperfect illusion called physical reality (consciousness is perfect, so hence the requirement for imperfection)

How is physical reality imperfect? How can it ever be more or less than exactly what it is? By what standard do you determine perfection?

Originally Posted by Max Power

people are exactly the same as the physical reality, people including the physical body/mind are creation, but they are not creative.
This is an important distinction in the creative process.

One of the things that I have wondered is, can I create something which is not seen. Why should I assume that because something is not in momentary awareness it doesn't exist. Beliefs seem to have the ability to create reality, so if I believe that other minds or other consciousnesses exist, is it possible I could create them.

Certainly it should be possible to see other minds. Some folks can apparently read thoughts, I don't see why someone who is sufficiently capable could not see the contents of another person's mind.

[Brutha]

One thing I have been trying to figure out is whether there is a difference between Steve's subjective reality and schools like Advaita Vedanta, Zen, etc.

Virtually all spiritual schools come to the same conclusion.

I think it is inherently against the nature of Zen to come to a conclusion at all.

[Keith]

I once heard an analogy that may help:

Imagine a small wave talking to all the other waves around it. An older, wiser wave tells the smaller wave that all the waves aren't really separate things - that they're actually all just one massive thing called 'ocean'. The smaller wave didn't get it though...