why are other or extra senses not recognised in our societies?

[Lallymac]

Why are we not taught from a young age how to axcess and utilize extra sensory perception?
Why are these abilities not part of the gifted and talented curriculum in schools? Why are children who have these abilities not identified and nurtured so they can teach others?
Are our governments afraid that if these abilities were given credit there would be a rush on new disability funding for the precognitive disabled, the intuitive disabled or clairvoyant disabled?
Lallymac

[Shamou]

If you have that extra sensory perception you should not have to ask... you should know...

.

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Shamou

If you have that extra sensory perception you should not have to ask... you should know...

.

A common misconception Shamou.
It more often raises a whole pile more questions to seek answers to.

Lallymac

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

A common misconception Shamou.
It more often raises a whole pile more questions to seek answers to.

Lallymac

Thank god I was not "blessed" with that gift...

.

[Mark Lapierre]

Probably because widespread recognition by influential bodies would require widespread acceptance by people who make up those bodies.

I think this is why the push for inclusion of Intelligent Design in science curriculum is actually being treated seriously, because a lot of people believe it and they're some of the people who can get it into schools.

And I think it hasn't had widespread acceptance because the credibility of people claiming to have extra sensory abilities is questionable, and expression of those abilities has never, to public knowledge, been reliably verified without more mundane explanations.

In other words there's not enough evidence that such abilities are real.

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Probably because widespread recognition by influential bodies would require widespread acceptance by people who make up those bodies.

I think this is why the push for inclusion of Intelligent Design in science curriculum is actually being treated seriously, because a lot of people believe it and they're some of the people who can get it into schools.

And I think it hasn't had widespread acceptance because the credibility of people claiming to have extra sensory abilities is questionable, and expression of those abilities has never, to public knowledge, been reliably verified without more mundane explanations.

In other words there's not enough evidence that such abilities are real.

What do you mean 'not enough evidence?' The evidence is all around us everywhere. It's in our language, in all of the Arts, in our religions, everywhere you find creativity, everywhere you find inspired thought. And still we ask for more evidence.

If man were restricted to the five physical senses alone, this world would be an incredibly boring place.
Lallymac

[Rin]

Something's gotten you in a tizz! What's all this about?

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

What do you mean 'not enough evidence?' The evidence is all around us everywhere. It's in our language, in all of the Arts, in our religions, everywhere you find creativity, everywhere you find inspired thought. And still we ask for more evidence.

Well I'm no expert, I'm just summarising what I've been exposed to. I can't speak for everyone, but I probably can speak for those who've said the same things I have.

None of that is evidence of extrasensory perception. The brain has an amazing ability to filter large amounts of information gathered from ordinary sensory perception, and to provide our conscious awareness with a feeling that summarises that plethora of input. That's intuition. And our brain also has the ability to form connections between otherwise separate concepts. That's creativity.

No doubt there's some examples of extrasensory perception which can't be explained by ordinary means. But can they be explained at all, can they be systematically improved, and can they be taught?

Originally Posted by Lallymac

If man were restricted to the five physical senses alone, this world would be an incredibly boring place.

Spears of golden sunlight illuminating a majestic snow-capped mountain. The peaceful sounds of wildlife frolicking in a forest, including the beautiful echoing call of the lyre-bird. The scent of an exotic flower garden in full bloom. The intricate flavours of a spicy traditional Indian meal. The feeling of a lover's skin against your own.

These experiences of ordinary senses make the world a boring place?

[Uplift]

The people described as 'savants', regularly display astounding abilities that defy a scientific explanation. A lot of people that have worked with people labelled 'disabled' (myself included) have witnessed unexplainable 'savant' ablities. I am interested in the subject, and it seems that the one common theme is isolation from the 'norms' and 'values', or the beliefs of regular society, for whatever reason. There are records of savant children living in isolated environments who lose their abilities when integrated into 'normal' environments. The only certain thing is that the belief shattering abilities are real, and that scientists are unable to explain or duplicate them, so tend to 'sweep them under the rug'. In some countries the abilities are valued, and are being studied.

[Calculusaurus]

Originally Posted by Uplift

The people described as 'savants', regularly display astounding abilities that defy a scientific explanation.

Where do you get the idea that savant syndrome is outside the realm of scientific explanation? Very few things are fully understood scientifically, and a savant's abilities are no exception -- but those abilities are understood in the sense that we know they're explainable by psychological means. We even know a bit about how such abilities develop neurologically.

Explain to me what exactly is paranormal about savant syndrome? Savant syndrome is an area of intense curiosity for neuroscientists. It's not like it's a dilemma for neuroscientists the way evolution is for creationists.

[Calculusaurus]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

Why are we not taught from a young age how to axcess and utilize extra sensory perception?

I thought it'd be obvious, but it's because the existence of ESP is currently not generally accepted in academia.

If ESP does exist in the capacity that psychics claim, it is only a matter of time until science is able to verify its existence, thus upgrading its status from "paranormal" to "normal."

Unfortunatley, I bet it'd be even longer still until something like ESP was taught in public schools. Lucid dreaming, for example, has been scientifically verified for over 30 years now and could be a wonderfully entertaining (and even useful) skill to teach younger children, especially since young children tend to be very susceptible to having lucid dreams. Yet something as harmlessly interesting as lucid dreaming has yet to make it into any school curriculum that I'm aware of. Young students are instead stuck with filling their heads with mind-limiting trivia

[Uplift]

So Calculusaurus, if scientists understand 'savant' abilities, it should then be no problem for the scientists to personally demonstrate and control the abilities. As you say, it is totally untrue to say that scientists understand savant abilities. A little bit of observation doesn't give anyone knowledge of anything, despite what they would have you believe.

[Lallymac]

Mark: Yes it is possible to teach people how to use other parts of the brain/mind. I've been teaching development classes for ten years. You are absolutely right to correct me on my attempt to undermine the nature of our physical senses.

Rin: Yes my post is a knee jerk reaction to a frustrating workplace incident this week involving my very special 23 yr old daughter.

Lallymac

[Calculusaurus]

Originally Posted by Uplift

So Calculusaurus, if scientists understand 'savant' abilities, it should then be no problem for the scientists to personally demonstrate and control the abilities. As you say, it is totally untrue to say that scientists understand savant abilities. A little bit of observation doesn't give anyone knowledge of anything, despite what they would have you believe.

Reread my post - I didn't say that scientists understand savant syndrome. The brain is astronomically complex. If you're a scientist, and your job is to understand the networked behavior of 100 billion nerve cells, can I really blame you if you don't have a complete working theory for an extremely rare neurological disorder?

For the record, here's a list of other things scientists don't understand.
-sleep
-nutrition
-gravity
-prime numbers . . .

In your first post, you said that savants express abilities that "defy" scientific explanation. This is terribly poor wording. Evolution defies creationism. There's nothing about savant syndrome that defies science. Savant syndrome currently just has plenty of unfilled gaps.

Other than that, I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make, other than showing a general misunderstanding of science

[Shamou]

Interesting thing about savant… from here...

"There is some research that suggests that it can be induced, which might support the view that savant abilities are latent within all people but are obscured by the normal functioning intellect.

By the help of repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation researchers are providing empirical evidence for the hypothesis that savant-like skills can be improved in a healthy individual by temporary disruption of the left front part of the brain - at least with some of the probates"

.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I've been teaching development classes for ten years.

What kind of development? Psychic development, or development of fundamental, yet ordinary parts of the brain. If it's the former, what does that involve?

[Dharma]

Amazon.com: China's Super Psychics: Books: Paul Dong,Thomas Raffill

[Lallymac]

Mark:
Psychic development; meditation, sensing energy, developing clairvoyance, healing
Lallymac

[Lallymac]

Medical author, Rita Carter in her book 'Consciousness' cited research material on OBE's recounted by patients during open heart surgery when their brains were clinically dead. They were able to accurately recall watching their surgery taking place and conversations between medical staff.
Where is the mind if it's still able to function when the brain is inactive?
Lallymac

[Uplift]

Calculusaurus, you are saying that all things are explainable using the mind, and the science of the mind. I don't agree, as I wonder what is it that can create the mind, and change the mind. What it is that came before the mind, or anything comprehendable by it, and that can exist without it, or if it chooses with it. I believe one day we will all truly be masters of our minds, and realise exactly what we are, and what our minds are. I also believe that position has already been expressed in the world, and is today.

[Uplift]

Shamou, I take the words suggest, might, may, possibly, perhaps, could, etc, etc that science uses when they feel like it, as meaning, dont know, just guessing.

[Mark Lapierre]

Lallymac: That depends on the definition of clinically dead. If the patients were able to later recount their experiences then there was still life in their brains. Perhaps current technology is incapable of accurately measuring brain activity, and so those cases of clinical death were incorrectly classified.

There's also the possibility that the brain was active enough to perceive what was going on, but the seemingly conscious recall happened later. I.e., what the patient described as happening at the time of open-heart surgery was actually a memory that was formed later, once their brain was able to do so. And it was put together in the form of an OBE because that was how the brain coped with such a traumatic experience.

I don't know, do you have any references to that research? I'd be interested to see the method, and results.

Studies have been done whose researchers propose that certain parts of the physical brain are related to OBEs, and that stimulation of the brain can induce an OBE. The wikipedia article about OBEs lists some studies.

I'll also point out that my limited understanding of how the brain works makes my explanation just as believable as the concept of mind and brain being separate. In other words in the face of limited information speculation is just that, speculation. OBEs, and any paranormal events, must have explanations which are more concrete than speculation before they're widely accepted. (according to the Amazon reviews, the book Dharma posted a link to doesn't present any evidence for what it says)

Uplift: Science has never been about absolute certainty. Scientists attempt to come up with a theory that most closely fits the available data while making as few assumptions as possible. That means that when key data is unavailable, or the data shows that certain elements of a theory are incomplete, using words which imply 100% certainty would be misleading.

Is it worse to admit one's uncertainty than to wrongly claim to be 100% correct?

[palimpsest]

Frankly, those who put their faith in science are completely missing the point of science. Science as a system is, at its very core, constant in its being volatile. Real scientific minds attack chinks and weaknesses in already established scientific theories, until it caves in to make way for the new theory built on top of its weaknesses (that must promptly receive the same treatment as the old theory) like the reed floors in Venice... there is only extensive observation (many sample numbers, and repeats,) dismissing bias as much as possible, so the conclusion that does seep through must have all the cognitive dross burned from it to have any standing-- and then in with the attacking weaknesses of that conclusion, again. I personally love the method, science and I just jive-- but I recognize it as a method of finding truth, not the Truth in itself.

Psychic abilities, in contrast, is a very personal thing (maybe like puberty used to be, except less consistent, but now we have things like Health class, yay!) It's all tied in with world view change and soul, taken more on faith and progressed with personal experience rather than something able to be measured from the outside... some parents would be angry that their children are being introduced to the occult, we know some get tetchy at even evolution. A teacher of ESP would have to have a clear enough sight to see how every single one of his or her students are progressing, and grade them accordingly. Frankly, we're mostly based in a material world with not many of those with ESP of that caliber outside of independent study. Even of the few people who have reached that caliber, they would also have to be licensed-- know the theory behind their subject (not agreed upon yet,) the methods to progress in their subject (different methods and especially pacing for everyone,) and how to engage and build a rappore with students (usually remembering what it was like not to know these things, and being able to explain them to the novitiate.)

Also, there's still some misconception (in a lot of people I've met, who are open to psychic phenomena being there at all,) that fully developed ESP is something you're born with. I think it was only a few years ago where an article came out in... Time magazine, was it? That creativity can be taught. Wow Ever watch High School Musical? Even my friends who are fans of that movie still live to stereotype themselves, "Can't, shouldn't, better off not trying..." they even persist, "I'm just not creative," after I've waved the magazine article in front of them. We LOVE our limits, and most schools I've been to seem to have a hard enough time meeting the material, measurable, academic quota for success. My school now has a meditation and yoga class as an extracurricular-- I wonder how our club leader could check our meditation progress without telepathy, if we're visualizing something else or just half-sleeping in lotus pose for half an hour.

I'm sure Nations would leap at the opportunity to educate their children in ESP if only it were developed as a widely accepted theory and teachable practice -- think of the advantage during times of war! As of now, we just don't have the instruments, or enough sample numbers to measure consistently. We have our testimonies, our experiences to share-- but at this age of the world, it's personal rather than institutionalized. (Unless you're Harry Potter.)

[Uplift]

Gidday Mark, if science admitted 'we just don't know', and admitted that their guess was no more sophisticated or valid than those that they overule, then I would have more time for them. I have formally studied the scientific process, and it isn't as straight forward as you suggest. Science is dictated to by funding and the peer power struggle. I like to refer to piltdown man as an example of science, not really because it was a hoax, and completely wrong, (because as the last post by palimpsest described, virtually all scientific theories collapse in the end), but because it blatently exposed the corruption and power plays that control the world of science, which are the ultimate decider of the myriad of 'proofs' submitted.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

A common misconception Shamou.
It more often raises a whole pile more questions to seek answers to.

Lallymac

I agree. To quote Steve from his article, Read a Book a Week:

Where does [the habit of reading a book a week] lead? I thought it would lead me to acquire a great deal of knowledge about the field of personal development. That did happen, but it also expanded my ignorance. Imagine your knowledge of any field as a circle. Within the circle lies what you know. Outside the circle is what you don’t know. The edge of the circle represents your awareness of what you don’t know. As the circle grows in size, its area increases, but so does its circumference. So the more you learn, the more you become aware of what you have yet to learn.

There is a benefit to that though. As that outer circle keeps expanding, and you gain a better understanding of what you don’t know, you can be more selective in what you decide to learn next. Your awareness increases. You can use what you’ve learned within the circle to predict where you’re most likely to learn some powerful new insights at the edge of the circle. It’s sort of a process of learning how to learn.

Originally Posted by Lallymac

Why are we not taught from a young age how to axcess and utilize extra sensory perception?

I don’t think there’s one answer that covers everything, but rather many interconnected answers that together will add up to the current state of our collective societies. Generally, though, I think it mostly has to do with limiting beliefs, social conditioning, ignorance, and a lack of desire/interest in such things.

You could ask the same question about a lot of things, though. For example, why are we not taught from a young age how to effectively maintain our bodies and keep them healthy with proper diet and exercise? Why are we not taught how to create a profitable business (or “businesses”) that is not only enjoyable to run/maintain, but leverages our strengths and provides value for a great amount of people while providing us with financial abundance?

It would seem downright intelligent to do any of those things since we generally benefit enormously from the inclusion of such things (as well as the knowledge of how to get those things) in our life. Unfortunately I don’t think we’ve reached a global level of awareness where we see such things as not only intelligent options, but vital knowledge/skills that are very much needed to live a "decent" life.

Worry not -- I think in time we will start to see this sort of positive change and we won't have as many of these question to be asking since we'll be busy answering them with our actions. The inefficient systems of old will be broken down and from the ashes, new, more effective, more empowering systems will take their place.

... or we’ll be hit by an asteroid and all be sent to the abyss... either way.

(But then we can start saying, “Why are we not taught how to access and utilise our non-physical extra sensory perception when we die? Why don't I know how to float left, damnit?!.” It’s clearly a vicious cycle. )

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Thank god I was not "blessed" with that gift...

You assume you weren't. I obviously can't speak for you, but maybe your "gifts" are merely dormant and you simply haven't chosen to use/develop them.

To give you an analogy, everyone (within reason) has the potential to develop a reasonable (and maybe even an exceptional) amount of muscular strength, however most people simple choose not to and don't put in the effort necessary to become "strong" (I'm talking, "wow, that guy's pretty strong" strong, not "average strength" strong).

Doesn’t mean that reasonable (or exceptional) strength isn’t available to them, they just choose to have an average, more limited amount of strength. Neither option is good or bad, but I do think that average strength is somewhat limiting since decent strength grants you all the advantages of average strength without the disadvantages (ie. you can still be gentle without crushing everything in your path, but now you can pick up heavy stuff without your arms snapping off ).

Maybe you should "hit the gym" and see if you can develop your psychic muscles. There's no need to try to go "professional" or anything and compete in “bodybuilding competitions”, but I think that, like most people who regularly go to the gym to exercise, having a certain level of functional psychic "strength"/ability proves to be useful in everyday life and also serves to improve your experience of life. After all, 6 senses are better then 5.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Gidday Mark, if science admitted 'we just don't know', and admitted that their guess was no more sophisticated or valid than those that they overule, then I would have more time for them. I have formally studied the scientific process, and it isn't as straight forward as you suggest. Science is dictated to by funding and the peer power struggle. I like to refer to piltdown man as an example of science, not really because it was a hoax, and completely wrong, (because as the last post by palimpsest described, virtually all scientific theories collapse in the end), but because it blatently exposed the corruption and power plays that control the world of science, which are the ultimate decider of the myriad of 'proofs' submitted.

Indeed (don't ask me what exactly I'm saying "indeed" to, I just like saying it ). In it’s present form, I see science as nothing but a religion in denial.

Personally I prefer to stay away from all the restrictive systems and structures, extract the essence of what is useful/empowering, and leave behind whatever remains. Just like eating a nut, once you’ve eaten the tasty contents you simply throw away the shell... no need to carry it around with you. Which reminds me of a quote:

The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've
gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists
because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can
forget the snare. Words exist because of meaning. Once you've
gotten the meaning, you can forget the words. Where can I find
a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him?
- Chuang Tzu

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

You assume you weren't. I obviously can't speak for you, but maybe your "gifts" are merely dormant and you simply haven't chosen to use/develop them.

I don't see ESP as a gift. It often feels like a double edged sword, gift/curse.
It took me 30 + years to come terms with it and accept that I was normal and it was a normal part of the way I am. For the first 10 years of my life it was semi hidden in my own secret world of childhood and imaginings. You have a lot more license as a child. It became more painful and difficult to hide as a teenager. At a time when you're desperately trying to fit in with peers. In my 20's I fought to deny it by burying myself in trying to be a perfect wife/mother.

By my early 30's it was in my face. It was in my children. My son (at 4) was seeing/talking to his grandparents who had died of cancer when he was a toddler. I began tentatively exploring the other parts of myself and found other people like me. I challenged it and constantly sort evidence to prove it to myself. Five years later I began to embrace it. Doing so cost me my marriage but for the first time in my life I felt whole and ok being me.

Through my psychic work I have met and became close friends with intelligent professional people who have similar abilities. Together we have spent many evenings freely discussing/debating/exploring the capacities of the mind.

I firmly believe that there is nothing special about me. Anyone, given the interest and opportunity, can access the same abilities within themselves. Working in this field has humbled me. It has taught me tolerance and reverence of life (physical and all the spaces in between). My ability has enabled me to walk many miles (briefly) in many shoes. To read the stories behind the covers of the books. I feel incredibly privileged by the trust my clients place in me. I take the responsibility of my work seriously.

Lallymac

[Alchemiss]

In a word, fear. People fear what they do not understand and cannot rationally explain. Rather than allowing the mystery to be part of the "truth", they want proof--the kind of proof that would appease a belief system which negates most of the wilder possibilities. I don't think society is ready (yet) for large scale psychic training.

I agree we all have the potential for these abilities. In some people they will stay dormant forever due to their beliefs around all of it i.e., dismissing things as coincidence etc. I do think more and more people are becoming receptive, though.

I am a engineer/scientist but am very attuned to the psychic world. Years ago I would have dismissed it all as ridiculous, if not dangerous.

[Nathan]

I see a patern in regard to these topics by some people. Close minded responses generally quoting another person.
open your mind and find out for yourself