why are other or extra senses not recognised in our societies?

[Uplift]

Gidday Mark, why don't you search for the experience. I used to think it was all dribble, but I really, really, totally wanted to see how visualisation and achieving goals works, thinking mostly from a sports performance and benefit point of view. I'm kind of all or nothing in whatever I do, so I went full on, to get an answer that satisfied all of my questions, and that would supposedly give me a competitive edge. I was not even remotely considering 'Spirituality', which I viewed as the realm of 'losers', dreamers and the weak. What ended up happening could fill a book, but I certainly got and experienced answers, and along the way my past beliefs were irrefuteably oblitherated. I had hilarious experiences, that made a comedy out of my beliefs and doubts, and clinging disbelief. What people think of them is absolutely irrelevent to me.

Say, exactly like an experience I had with eating eggs. I ate 2 dozen a day for about 12 years. And a half pint of cream. No fruit or veg, just sometimes potatoes drenched in butter and semi ripe bananas. A few nuts and grains, maybe a desert spoon amount a day. Butter, heaps of it, cheese, fatty meat. Full cream milk, and water. I couldn't care less, remotely, the slightest, what reports, experiments, experts, findings...whatever, whoever, say. If you where here and knew me, you would know its true. I could introduce you to friends, sporting associates, and doctors who would reluctantly verify it, and reluctantly verify that my health and fitness was ridiculous. And you still wouldn't believe it. And the very people describing it, who were reluctant witnesses, will still tell you 'too many eggs are bad for you'. It's hilarious, if there were more hours in the day I would have eaten 3 dozen. I would literally trample guys, and they would ask me what I do to be so fit and strong. I would tell them I eat 2 dozen eggs a day, and they would freak, and tell me I must be really sick, and I must feel terrible, and that I would die...all after I had trampled them, and they were collapsing with exhaustion, and were asking me what I do! To dumbfound doctors I would have medicals, and when the results were deluxe, and they would congratulate me on my awesome health, and low cholesterol levels (cholesterol was the craze then), I would take great delght in telling them what I ate. I'm supposed to be dead! My 'Spiritual' experiences are like that. So real it's a comedy. I know writing this is a comedy, pointless. Because, nothing, absolutely nothing, beats experience, or means a thing compared to it. Ever tried to explain to someone, or have explained to you what something tastes like that they, or you, haven't eaten? Spirit is real, it's us...and eggs...

[Alchemiss]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Which is another way of me saying I accept that extra-sensory abilities of some kind may exist in some form, but that it's our lack of understanding of them which assigns them a metaphysical source, rather than the more mundane (and therefore less appealing to most) proposal that they're simply natural, misunderstood abilities.

Part of the lack of acceptance is as Alchemiss said, fear, but it's fear seemingly justified when some (and only some) claims of psychic powers are shown to be fraudulent. It's a case of one bad apple spoiling the barrel. Entirely unfair, but if those who do truly possess such abilities stop surrounding them with mystery then people might start to see that the barrel is still unspoilt.

I personally don't believe they come from a mundane source based on my own experience. Although I was unconvinced there was something bigger than us out there before, I'm certain of it now. Yet I cannot prove it--neither the mysterious things I've experienced nor the source. Prior to my recent experiences, if someone had described having such experiences, I would have considered them naive or perhaps as "wishful thinkers" (or even frauds, as you mentioned). I now think proof is an internal thing.

I agree with Uplift, also, it is like trying to describe how a food tastes to someone who's never had it. Once you've tasted it you have the "Ah, that!" embedded in you somewhere.

[SeriousKidding.com]

Well said.

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

The extra-sensory potential of man is vast and multiple. Clairvoyance, telekinisis, remote sentience etc are only a few. Those able to access an aspect of the potential and utilize it, become experienced in, gain specialty knowledge in that particular area. When people say 'prove it' by performing certain feats dictated by them, it is a bit like asking a bio marine chemist to perform open heart surgery. A medium for instance 'tunes' their energy into the frequency of communicting with the dead. Asking them to predict major world events may be ludicrous.

How do you know that you have taught that sort of skill to a child if even the expert can't prove their abilities?
If a skill doesn't give you the ability to do something with measureable results then that skill is worthless.

After what seemed like 10-15 minutes my friend and I noticed that the platform was 1-2 ft below his torso. Everyone else was bowed down in prayer. At the end, he walked around and stood in front of each person and if my memory serves me right, he touched his forehead against theirs.

But you don't know whether your memory serves you right.

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Brutha

How do you know that you have taught that sort of skill to a child if even the expert can't prove their abilities?
If a skill doesn't give you the ability to do something with measureable results then that skill is worthless.
But you don't know whether your memory serves you right.

Brutha, how do you or I know that you are not hallucenating? Where's the evidence to prove it. How do you, or I know you are not brainwashed, or decieved? How will you or I know you have not read the wrong books, listened to the wrong 'experts' (Remember asbestos, ddt. 'Experts' prescribed heroin for babies)? Or that you have misconstrued the information, or that your memory is playing tricks on you? Have experiments been conducted to prove beyond doubt that you are not wrong, or that none of the above is true. Even then, how will you or I know that the experiments have used the correct measuring instruments? That was Michelson's and Morley's error. How do you or I know 'experts' are 'experts'?

[StewartC]

Hi Lallymac
Have you considered focusing on what you want instead of what you don't want ?

..... May be you could focus on having it bacome part of what schools teach ?

.... Maybe you could think of some action you could take ..... no matter how small .... of getting it taught in schools ?

The longest journey begins with the first step !!!! and someone has to take it.

Have a fantastic day

Stewart

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by StewartC

Hi Lallymac
Have you considered focusing on what you want instead of what you don't want ?

..... May be you could focus on having it bacome part of what schools teach ?

.... Maybe you could think of some action you could take ..... no matter how small .... of getting it taught in schools ?

The longest journey begins with the first step !!!! and someone has to take it.

Have a fantastic day

Stewart

I agree totally. However, I think of it like reading a map. Unless you know where you are, the best map in the world is useless. Once you are aware of where you are, the rest of the journey is easy, and there is no need to go back to the beginning.

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Brutha

How do you know that you have taught that sort of skill to a child if even the expert can't prove their abilities?
If a skill doesn't give you the ability to do something with measureable results then that skill is worthless.
But you don't know whether your memory serves you right.

Brutha; As I've said before, my opening post was facetious. We are a long way from having a common understanding of them, let alone universally teaching these skills. Who are these experts? Is a scientist an expert in the paranormal? In terms of value or worth, surely that can only be judged by the individual experiencing it?

The memory of the levitating guru is clearly emblazoned in my memory. It's not something you see every day but the proceedings surrounding it had lesser impact for the reasons I've already stated.

Lallymac

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Brutha, how do you or I know that you are not hallucenating? Where's the evidence to prove it. How do you, or I know you are not brainwashed, or decieved? How will you or I know you have not read the wrong books, listened to the wrong 'experts' (Remember asbestos, ddt. 'Experts' prescribed heroin for babies)? Or that you have misconstrued the information, or that your memory is playing tricks on you? Have experiments been conducted to prove beyond doubt that you are not wrong, or that none of the above is true. Even then, how will you or I know that the experiments have used the correct measuring instruments? That was Michelson's and Morley's error. How do you or I know 'experts' are 'experts'?

The same could be asked of you.

But if the hallucination is similar day after day, and cause and effect works reliably within that hallucination, encountering something or someone which doesn't would attract attention, wouldn't it? If an ability isn't observable and repeatable, what good is it? If I can't write good code that produces a working application when given a detailed specification, then I can't claim to be able to produce software, can I? Why should extra-sensory abilities be treated any differently?

If people want ESP to be accepted then it has to be treated the same as the normal senses, and related abilities treated as regular abilities. That means they must be able to be subject to appropriate and objective review.

If someone claims to be able to communicate with the dead, they should be able to do so reliably and in a way that removes any but minor doubt. And if that ability is truly a natural human ability some humans have (but not all), then all those who do have it should be able to demonstrate their abilities with an acceptable degree of doubt relative to their skill and experience.

And there is an acceptable level of doubt regarding regular abilities. For example psychiatry or counselling (in this case the provision of services which are the application of the ability to provide therapy, which is a learned ability which does require some specific personality traits to be effective). Even a certified therapist won't be able to help everyone. What they do is highly personal and their methods won't work for everyone. But the study of psychology and the practice of therapy are well established, and there's a huge amount of knowledge available which covers all known aspects of the field. If the same can be done for ESP then it might become more widely accepted.

If worth of value can only be judged by the individual experiencing it, what incentive is there for someone who hasn't had such an experience to go searching for it?

btw Uplift, I have searched for the experience. Not finding it in places where people have made claims that it can be found has made me doubt the usefulness of continuing to search. I'll keep my senses and mind open, but I'd rather focus my efforts on searching that produces results...

[Lallymac]

Uplift:Stewart;
I completed a degree in education (tchg) last year. Howard Gardner's first eight Mutiple Intelligences have been readily embraced and incorporated into the curriculum, paving the way for Daniel Goleman's theories on emotional intelligence (EQ). Further writings by both these authors on Spiritual Intelligence (rated as high if not higher than IQ and EQ) have caused a lot of choking noises and a scurried attempts to discredit them.
I found that the university lecturers are struggling to fully comprehend and deliver valuable understanding of EQ to training teachers.
Teacher's in NZ are juggling an already jam packed curriculum alongside teaching special needs and ESOL. Special Ed and ESOL are optional in completing a degree and yet teachers have to manage both in any classroom in the country. Any training that hasn't been fully grasped falls by the wayside.

I realised as a classroom teacher, I'd be teaching subjects that I have minimum interest in and my real passions, interests, skills and abilities would be pushed into the background. There are no training institutes for the development of parapschology or esoteric studies so my next step is to start my own.
Lallymac

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

The same could be asked of you.


btw Uplift, I have searched for the experience. Not finding it in places where people have made claims that it can be found has made me doubt the usefulness of continuing to search. I'll keep my senses and mind open, but I'd rather focus my efforts on searching that produces results...

My point exactly Mark, or the same could be asked of you, or anyone. Again and again. That type of argument is good if you like talking in circles. In the end we all believe what we choose to, and will find what we need to justify it, for as long as we want to. The bottom line is our own happiness and fullfillment.

Hows this, walk into gyms and there are people that get absolutely unbelievable results, and that swear by weight training, their eating habits etc. Other people go to the same gyms, same weights, buy the same stuff, and get no results, no matter how long they go. I'm a personal trainer, I see it all the time. There's always a pattern though. Their story, they love telling you their story. After years and years of 'training' and 'expertise' they haven't got a muscle in their body, or an ounce of strength, and they go to trainers supposedly for help, but they always, relentlessly cling to their story. 'This is how I do my workouts'. 'No I don't do it like that'. 'I've found that...' 'Weights don't work for me'. 'I eat like this'. Its like any change, only when they finally decide that they actually want something different, strongly enough, when enough is enough, they finally ditch their story, choose a new one, and 'Presto, wow, it's a miracle'! They find something where previously, they couldn't find anything!

Go Lallymac, I think it's wise to assess the state of things, honestly, so that you can choose your direction...which you obviously have. Good on you!

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

Brutha; As I've said before, my opening post was facetious. We are a long way from having a common understanding of them, let alone universally teaching these skills. Who are these experts? Is a scientist an expert in the paranormal?

Expert=someone who has knowledge in an area.
If you assert that there are people who have those abilities, they are the experts. That leaves them with the burdon of proofing that the have those abilites.

In terms of value or worth, surely that can only be judged by the individual experiencing it?

If you can't do something which gets noticed by someone else than yourself, you don't have useful skills.

The memory of the levitating guru is clearly emblazoned in my memory.

It is no clear memory. If it were you would remember the name of the guy who did it.
By meditating you go into a highly suggestive state.

Brutha, how do you or I know that you are not hallucenating?

That is the main argument, personal memories aren't enough to make judgement over the nature of reality. You get multiple witnesses for a single event. In the best case your witnesses are computers/cameras.

I'm not talking about cartesian doubt.
With a bit of setup it is easy to get a a bit over the ground illusion.
In addition it isn't that difficult for a skilled hypnotherapist to create that sort of memory in a highly suggestive individual.

Originally Posted by Uplift:
The bottom line is our own happiness and fullfillment.

You seem neither to be happy nor fullfilled. You rather seem to have some sort of anger on the western world. Maybe fulled by your childhood (which you told us about in another thread).

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Brutha

You seem neither to be happy nor fullfilled. You rather seem to have some sort of anger on the western world. Maybe fulled by your childhood (which you told us about in another thread).

Seem Brutha? Now you are either demonstrating or alluding to telepathy! Well Done! I am extremely happy that I have the ability to question western culture's brutal onslaught on other cultures and belief systems. You seem afraid or defensive at that. Presently, western culture nurtures and often exhibits typical bullyish behaviour, choosing to cry louder than anyone when confronted. You were close, but it's not that I am unhappy, it's that I have no respect whatsoever for that type of behaviour, and feel that it should be questioned and addressed.

[Natsu]

Well, guys, I don't know in your countries, but in mine (Spain), the state has unwillingly recognized the existence of paranormal abilities.

The circulation code (the code by which car-truck-motorbike drivers must act), explicitly states that a driver must foresee the acts of others, and act according to what others are going to do.

So, basically, the state is asking you to use, either precognition or telepathy if you are to drive properly. A lower term would be "intuition". Anyway, the state commands you to use it when you drive. I don't know if they realized it or not, but asking you to foresee what other people are going to do, requires the paranormal powers mentioned above (no, seeing that a guy is going to turn after he lighted his signal is NOT what is meant... they mean really guessing what other drivers will do).

And I just wonder... Do the circulation codes of other countries include that? The need to "foresee" other drivers' actions to be a good one?

[Amadeus]

I can answer your question with one word, money. A corporation or drug company can not make money telling people gifts that they may obtain or already have from their selves. You can write a book about it and make money (Think and Grow Rich, Silva Method, The Bible, Steve Pavlina forum). That is it though.

[Mark Lapierre]

And yet if it were accepted they could make money selling products to "enhance" your abilities. Like "smart drinks"

Don't forget the money that could be made, and the jobs created, by teaching and making use of those abilities.

In other words, it's not that simple.

So even though I have my doubts I commend Lallymac for doing what she's doing.

[Lallymac]

Wow Natsu.
There's a sales pitch. 'Learn how to enhance your psychic ability and adhere to the road code.'

Mark: Thank you for your support.
Lally

[jasonivers]

By speaking the way that you are about people not acknowledging or teaching ESP, and having prejudice against it, you are reinforcing your own beliefs that such is the case, thus actually strengthening the thing which you dislike. It would be better, in general, to look at things in a positive way, instead. "How do we make things like this more readily acceptable to others?" rather than "Why do they reject us?"

Personally, I've had a few experiences that I do not know how to explain. Whether or not this was paranormal or not is all in the eyes of the beholder (or in this case, possibly the ear of the listener), and has something to do with their inclination and level of knowledge in the area. In case anyone is curious, the most consistent one (which I no longer seem to have the ability to do) was knowing that someone was calling, and who it was, before the phone rang. That is, I could tell that, say, my grandma was calling, and could say so, and THEN the phone would ring for the first time.

All that being said, I would love for people to be more accepting of unusual, hard to explain scientifically, things. If anyone has any good ideas on how to further this goal, let me know. Although I don't have much influence at the moment, that won't necessarily always be the case, and I am willing to put some of the energy at my disposal into such a goal.

Also, if anyone has specifics on how to regain or expand the abilities I used to have (I also had deja vu a lot, in regards to knowing what people, including myself were going to say... I'd often mouth the words along with them), I would be interested in knowing more... preferrably not involving buying a book or video (if it's available on a web site or via the library, that's more my style).

By the way, in case anyone is curious to know more of what I think about this and other such things, I have a self development blog of my own (though few readers so far).

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I realised as a classroom teacher, I'd be teaching subjects that I have minimum interest in and my real passions, interests, skills and abilities would be pushed into the background. There are no training institutes for the development of parapschology or esoteric studies so my next step is to start my own.

A worthy endeavour, Lallymac. I hope you are able to succeed in your quest... the world could certainly benefit from such a thing.

Good news is you can always model the school from the X-Men cartoon/movies if needed. And I'm sure you can get some bonus credibility from people if you throw the name "Xavier" around. (I am kidding there, by the way... my first paragraph was 100% serious.)