why are other or extra senses not recognised in our societies?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

After all, 6 senses are better then 5.

I am far from being certain of that... I am a pragmatic... I like to keep both feet on the ground... I will consider my "gut feelings" but anything else is too close to hallucinations to be comfortable as far as I am concerned...

Now, I have the utmost respect for people who believe in the paranormal... I just don't want to test the water myself...

.

[infinitethoughts]

To the Believers in Materialism.
IE: Extra-sensory perception is non-existent.

Embedded within the word, Extra-sensory perception, is the word Extra.

Now why would we, the human race, agree on this word and say that perception exists that is extra to the sensory experience ?

----

A more persuading argument.
Materialists argue that the brain creates consciousness.

What they fail to see is the simple logic that the "brain" thinks beyond the 5 senses, beyond the "physical", beyond itself.

If consciousness was created in the brain, common sense tells you, we would not be able to think beyond the 5 senses.

Obviously its not the brain thinking, but something beyond the 5 senses, beyond the brain.

***********

I invite any Materialists to dispute these simple logical truths with me.

***********

[palimpsest]

I think a pedantic breakdown of extra-sensory perception as a necessary word follows that there are indeed stimuli beyond what our 5 physical senses function with -- wavelengths of light outside of infra-red and ultraviolet, for example, and notes that we can't hear but dogs can.

The brain's function includes interpreting sensory input from the periphery (5 senses) but is certainly not limited to that! It's part of the central rather than peripheral or sensory nervous system, and we don't say extra-central. MRI scans highlight areas of brain activity and were able to map the parts of the brain active during the use of motor skills and processes like memory, emotion, logic, and imagination. It's certainly an amazing organ. Consciousness in the brain will allow experience far beyond the 5 senses, because it also initiates activity. There's even a word for what the brain feels like, quale (that is, mind and possibly spirit is the quale of the brain.)

What I wonder is why it seems materialism and spirituality must be mutually exclusive. Herman Hesse's Siddharta put it best when the titular character saw the physical world as representations of the divine rather than the illusion that draws one away from it, but I see them as one and the same (for lack of better words.) To condemn the material mechanics for ensnaring us in an illusion I think betrays our own failure to appreciate this facet of the world-- why be so intimidated by what understanding of its mechanics (like the brain) can be interpreted as? It's like being scared of your own shadow.

[infinitethoughts]

palimpsest

From what little I wrote above, I can see why you wrote that.

I don't condem physicality, but rather praise our invention of it.
I know it's our "playground".

Above, I was addressing the person who strictly only believes in matter.

[Brutha]

So Calculusaurus, if scientists understand 'savant' abilities, it should then be no problem for the scientists to personally demonstrate and control the abilities.

Most savants aren't able to function in our world, coping their whole syndrom wouldn't be effective.
Currently we don't understand (scientificly) our brain enough to understand simple things.

If consciousness was created in the brain, common sense tells you, we would not be able to think beyond the 5 senses.

Could you explain that reasoning?
In addition it is irrevelant what common sense tells you.

Frankly, those who put their faith in science are completely missing the point of science.

Yes, the beaty of science is that it doesn't need belief.

[Yukio]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

A common misconception Shamou.
It more often raises a whole pile more questions to seek answers to.

Lallymac

Actually, if someone would be gifted with Knowledge (Science) or Wisdom the person could probably knew the answers ...

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Yukio

Actually, if someone would be gifted with Knowledge (Science) or Wisdom the person could probably knew the answers ...

Now... why did I not think of that...

Thank you Yukio for that powerful insight...

.

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Yukio

Actually, if someone would be gifted with Knowledge (Science) or Wisdom the person could probably knew the answers ...

Bingo!!! That's exactly my point. Genius's use more of their minds.
We all have that potential.
Lallymac

[Lallymac]

Our education systems, in particular, High schools and tertiary educators condition us to think vicariously by constantly examining us on how well we can regurgitate the thoughts/ideas of so called experts. Original thought is frowned upon because it challenges the ability of examiners.
Yet if you read the biographies/autobiographies of leading edge thinkers who've made break throughs in their field, you'll commonly find that the answers they were seeking to the problem they were trying to solve, came when they were no longer able to 'think' the answers and sought inspiration beyond what the information they already knew.
The answers frequently arrived in the form of a vision or a spontaneous download of not already known information.
In other words they broke through, past the logical mind, into another state of mind and accessed the 'universal mind.'
Lallymac

[Lallymac]

We spend so much time learning information that is already known (running around inside the square). Today we have access to that information at our finger tips. If we spent some of our time reaching beyond the square or even thinking outside of it, maybe we could start to answer some of the questions we haven't even begun to ask.
Lallymac

[Yukio]

Maybe it is what some people were talking about. Two sides of the Brain , one more Intuitive and another with the Logic.

Except that in "Savants" those abilities are in a high disequilibrium , like five or more Standard Deviations from the norm. After all, not 'everybody could has 7 or 8 Standard Deviations as a little child' ...

[Lallymac]

It's interesting Yukio, that 'savants' are unable to access the range of normal brain function that most of us can, are unable to perform simple tasks such dressing themselves and yet some have been seen to pick up a musical instrument they've never seen before and immediately play a complex piece of music they may never have heard before, perfectly.

I wonder if, when we are unable to access within the standard range of brain function, we access and ultilize what is left.
Lallymac

[Rin]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I firmly believe that there is nothing special about me.

I have to (firmly but gently) disagree with you there, Lallymac!

I do understand about your double-edged sword, albeit not because of any psychic abilities on my part, but because of my very birthright. (It's a long story.) I get so tired sometimes. I swear, I didn't choose any of this! And then, to watch my son go through it too ...

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by infinitethoughts

Materialists argue that the brain creates consciousness.

What they fail to see is the simple logic that the "brain" thinks beyond the 5 senses, beyond the "physical", beyond itself.

If consciousness was created in the brain, common sense tells you, we would not be able to think beyond the 5 senses.

Obviously its not the brain thinking, but something beyond the 5 senses, beyond the brain.

Ok, I'm going to attempt to fill in a few assertions which you seem to assume are clear from what you've stated. So my understanding of your logic is:

1. The brain is directly linked to the five senses.
2. Consciousness allows us to think.
3. We can think beyond the five senses. (I take this to mean we can think of things that we don't perceive with the five senses. Let me know if I'm misinterpreting)
4. The brains direct link to the five senses prevents it from thinking beyond the five senses.
5. The ability to think beyond the five senses proves the brain cannot be responsible for thinking, therefore the brain does not create consciousness.

Is that what you're saying?

The ability to state that something exists is not evidence of its existence. Of course I'll be proven wrong when the Flying Spaghetti Monster turn up.

In other words, the ability to think beyond the five senses is not equivalent to the ability to perceive beyond the five senses. Otherwise all little girls would have real ponies instead of imaginary ones, which would create havoc for food supplies, not to mention stabling them all. But I can see how your belief in SR leads you to think the way you do, and to consider it common sense.

We have a wonderful ability to imagine things that don't exist, to think of things which haven't been thought before. That we can do so says nothing about the seat of consciousness, nor does that ability require any spiritual source. Of course it doesn't disprove a spiritual source, it just doesn't require one.

It's like what the Dalai Lama said yesterday about compassion, love, and happiness; you don't have to be a spiritual or religious person to experience those key attributes of humanity (Nathan, an open mind would allow acceptance of the words of others. Repeating those words does not indicate a closed mind, nor a lack of understanding of those words)

Which is another way of me saying I accept that extra-sensory abilities of some kind may exist in some form, but that it's our lack of understanding of them which assigns them a metaphysical source, rather than the more mundane (and therefore less appealing to most) proposal that they're simply natural, misunderstood abilities.

Part of the lack of acceptance is as Alchemiss said, fear, but it's fear seemingly justified when some (and only some) claims of psychic powers are shown to be fraudulent. It's a case of one bad apple spoiling the barrel. Entirely unfair, but if those who do truly possess such abilities stop surrounding them with mystery then people might start to see that the barrel is still unspoilt.

[Lallymac]

The extra-sensory potential of man is vast and multiple. Clairvoyance, telekinisis, remote sentience etc are only a few. Those able to access an aspect of the potential and utilize it, become experienced in, gain specialty knowledge in that particular area. When people say 'prove it' by performing certain feats dictated by them, it is a bit like asking a bio marine chemist to perform open heart surgery. A medium for instance 'tunes' their energy into the frequency of communicting with the dead. Asking them to predict major world events may be ludicrous.

Because someone has a particular ability from a young age, it doesn't guarantee they have the other neccasary personal attributes to use it in a postive manner that enhances the lives of others. What they do with it and how they develop it is dependent on other contributing facters like social conditioning, personal integrity etc.
Lallymac

[Uplift]

Gidday Mark, you express your particular, belief contained, human point of view. Before atoms, particles, waves, strings, humans, what exists. Where and what do all things that can be experienced through humanity, and without humanity, come from. What exists without the earth, space, universe and so on, but can create the whole lot? And how? Thats the realm of Spirit, which is the reason the mundane exists, or doesn't. It makes the mundane possible, but isn't effected by the mundane, so thats what I believe is outside the mundane or normal, but can shape and effect the mundane in any way it chooses. Spirit is us.

[Lallymac]

When you find yourself spontaneoulsy standing in the energy field of another human being on the other side of the world, feeling their physicality, hearing their thoughts, breathing their breath, looking out of their eyes and accurately describe their environment, you 'know' we are spirit/energy beings having physical experince.
Lallymac

[Uplift]

That's amasing Lallymac. I did a course about 25 years ago called Alpha Dynamics, and I am only just realising how profound it was, partly because of the guy leading it at the time. In it, even the biggest doubters and sceptics, (one was a reporter, 'planted' by the Adelaide Sunday Mail, who not far into the course felt so bad he revealed his motives, as did a Psychiatrist, also in league with him...I was a in two minds as well) all got a taste in varying degrees of the more vivid experience you describe. No one could refute the experience, because it was done in a way that the results were irrefutable... and dumbfounding. I rememeber full, front page headlines, something along the lines of 'Brain washing cult invades Adelaide'. And 'Alpha hoax cult fleeces victims'. Upon the course ending, when the 'plant' shed 'tears of joy' and both he and the Psychiatrist talked excitedly at the things they had experienced and discovered about themselves, I remember looking forward to the newspaper article. A tiny little paragraph was hidden away in the paper, where the Psychiatrist announced something like, 'as they used very basic methods of clinical Psychiatry, it posed no danger'.

You are brave to describe your incredible experience. I witnessed the ignorant, savage, personal attacks on the guy running the course in Adelaide, who was one of the most honest, trustworthy, intelligent and kind people I have met. He has since gone on to be very famous and successfull, and I don't name him out of respect, and as I don't feel it is my place to do so.
It is a reflection on our society, when for instance I have friends that trust me implicitly, and make a point of showing their respect toward me, whom if I were to reveal to some of the awesome experiences I have had, that have irrefutably shown me that there is much, much more to life than our mundane, or 'normal' world view suggests, would probably think that I had lost my mind, taken drugs, was in need of medical help, or just imagined it. As you say Lallymac, you 'know'. You are very fortunate. It's so ridiculous, even now, I can imagine those thinking, the poor guy has lost his mind.

[Lallymac]

I just had a conversation with a friend who's a computor programmer. He's been thrashing around a problem with writing code for a job he's working on. Interestingly he's dyslexic, doesn't read and struggles to write. Anyway he had a breakthrough moment last night and solved the problem. I asked how he did it. This is his reply.
"I've created my own mental search engine. When I get stuck, I imagine myself asking the question to my voice activated search engine, then wait to be shown the answer." I asked why he didn't do it earlier instead of waiting until he was at the end of his wits. He reckons it doesn't seem to work until he's exercised all his other options and then mumbled something about having to explain how he worked it out to his boss without compromising his credibility.

An interesting visualisation for accessing the universal mind.
Lallymac

[Namaste]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

The extra-sensory potential of man is vast and multiple. Clairvoyance, telekinisis, remote sentience etc are only a few... When people say 'prove it' by performing certain feats dictated by them, it is a bit like asking a bio marine chemist to perform open heart surgery.

Why? To prove that one can move objects with the power of thought, all one has to do is move them. So it's like asking someone to show that they speak Hungarian, for example. All they have to do is speak - easy (if they can indeed do it).

[Uplift]

Originally Posted by Namaste

Why? To prove that one can move objects with the power of thought, all one has to do is move them. So it's like asking someone to show that they speak Hungarian, for example. All they have to do is speak - easy (if they can indeed do it).

I asked wholeheartedly to witness firsthand, and experience just that, got it in spades, and now choose to learn about and understand it. Not to hurt anyone, but because I am driven to, and my dream is for total unlimited happiness for me, and anyone who wants it. Roger Bannister was told a four minute mile was beyond human reality. He did what it took to make his dream real. Even though it would not harm anyone, people felt the need, the fear, the threat, to attack and ridicule him. To hold him down, to crush him. He could have easily given up, against the barrage and weight of conditioning and energy against him. Eventually he succeeded. The impossible became possible. Others now regularly do it, the once humanly impossible. To learn to do the four minute mile, don't take the advice of those who can't or won't conceive it. Bannister didn't succeed for a long time, but overcame his mental limits, and the limiting belief of the day... he knew that was the limiting factor. Mind. It is ridiculous that people praise Bannister's efforts, and cite him as a hero, for achieving the 'impossible' which now, after the event, suddenly was always achievable, not really that impossible, and no big deal. In the next breath they attempt to prove and justify that the next 'impossible' is a 'real' impossible, that the next Bannister is dreaming, delusional. 'Strive to achieve the impossible, as long as it's not impossible!' Bannister was considered mad, delusional, even dangerous, egotistical, before his achievment. Who and where was his example, his proof? I would rather encourage Lallymac, be encouraged by his endeavours, which threaten no-one. I have no terror or am not threatened in the slightest by the thought of Lallymac, or anyone achieving all that Lallymac describes, and what benefits anyone wanting it, or wanting to learn about it. If you choose something else, that's your right. What has Lallymac done to you by wondering why such knowledge is rigorously denied to those who would choose to explore it?
A great story about the computer programmer wasn't it! What an amasing achievment, for him, his employers, and anyone else who benefits from it. All benefit and no harm! I love it!

[Akashic_Librarian]

It is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself.

Thus, psychic powers don't happen to you, you happen to psychic powers

[Lallymac]

Originally Posted by Namaste

Why? To prove that one can move objects with the power of thought, all one has to do is move them. So it's like asking someone to show that they speak Hungarian, for example. All they have to do is speak - easy (if they can indeed do it).

Namaste,
I'd like to clarify my statement. There are general assumptions the ESP is all encompassing. If you can do one thing, you can do all, when most people have developed part or some of these abilities to varying degrees.
I hear what you are saying and agree that it would foolhardy to publicly claim to do something that you are unable to do.

Lallymac

[Lallymac]

Uplift,
Cheers for your support (I'm a female by the way). It's been so refreshing being able to discuss the possibilities of the human mind with open minded people. I've seen a lot of things in my life that I would never have believed were possible. It tends to shift your mindset and open you up to endless possiblities. I saw an Eastern guru levitate a couple of years ago and wouldn't have thought that possible till I witnessed it for myself. By the same token I would never have claimed it to be impossible either.
Lallymac

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I don't see ESP as a gift. It often feels like a double edged sword, gift/curse.
It took me 30 + years to come terms with it and accept that I was normal and it was a normal part of the way I am. For the first 10 years of my life it was semi hidden in my own secret world of childhood and imaginings. You have a lot more license as a child. It became more painful and difficult to hide as a teenager. At a time when you're desperately trying to fit in with peers. In my 20's I fought to deny it by burying myself in trying to be a perfect wife/mother.

By my early 30's it was in my face. It was in my children. My son (at 4) was seeing/talking to his grandparents who had died of cancer when he was a toddler. I began tentatively exploring the other parts of myself and found other people like me. I challenged it and constantly sort evidence to prove it to myself. Five years later I began to embrace it. Doing so cost me my marriage but for the first time in my life I felt whole and ok being me.

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I just had a conversation with a friend who's a computor programmer. He's been thrashing around a problem with writing code for a job he's working on. Interestingly he's dyslexic, doesn't read and struggles to write. Anyway he had a breakthrough moment last night and solved the problem. I asked how he did it. This is his reply.
"I've created my own mental search engine. When I get stuck, I imagine myself asking the question to my voice activated search engine, then wait to be shown the answer." I asked why he didn't do it earlier instead of waiting until he was at the end of his wits. He reckons it doesn't seem to work until he's exercised all his other options and then mumbled something about having to explain how he worked it out to his boss without compromising his credibility.

I find it interesting that many people feel the need to justify their "weirdness" and have reservations about doing so. It seems to be a common theme with those who have psychic abilities.

I copped a lot of flack from those around me when I was younger so maybe I've just learnt to take the hits, but personally I've never felt the need to conform to what people consider to be “normal”. Quite the contrary; to this day I frequently leave an aftermath of "normal" paradigms stretched and broken with my "weirdness", which is amplified by my blatant honesty and directness. I don't go out of my way to say "hey, look at me, this isn't what normal people do", but I don't cover it up or make excuses for it, either.

Sure, some people will refuse to associate with you, and some will even try to ridicule you, but I think it's worth dealing with that to identify those rare individuals who don’t immediately get taken over by socially conditioning and are actually open to the diversity of life.

I’ll admit that there have been times in my life where judgement from others has led me to I question whether or not I should leave my current path and become more “normal”, but I always bounce back with a hardened sense of clarity, knowing that I’ve made the right choice in being myself instead of trying to aspire to some sort of socially accepted image of what is “right” and what we “should” be.

I think this is very much why it will be a while before we see extra-sensory perception being not only accepted, but taught to children -- most of us are too busy trying to be "normal". Oh, we humans can be a silly bunch.

[Uplift]

No worries Lallymac, no offense by my assumption. That's funny, when will I learn. I thought I used Lallymac continually, as I started to wonder if you were a guy or girl. The simple, direct thing would be to listen, and ask, instead of beating around the bush and trying to 'cover myself'.
I have experienced, and still experience a barrage of belief altering... well actually shattering... things as well, that I am still trying to make sense of. I like to be inspired by things, and think it is valuable to do so. One lesson I learned about me was that no matter what amasing thing happened, or happens, its easy to doubt. I also learned that intention, truth is all powerfull. You can't fool yourself, as they say. You either truly want the best for all, or you don't. So deep down, I'm fearless.

[Lallymac]

Hi Bruce,
Yes I'm weird too and have to admit there's a wonderful sense of freedom that comes with stepping outside the square and societal norms. I'm actually quite boringly normal for the most part but the general assumption that I'm nutty as a fruitcake gives me lisence to do the odd random act of insanity like nude swimming in the moonlight. One of the fringe benefits is the interesting people I've met on the outside. Many of my friends are certifiably nuts with diagnosed disabilities such as dyslexia, aspurgers syndrome, bi polar etc. I tell them I chose them as friends because they make me feel sane. The truth though is that they are some of the most brilliant minds and talents (with credentials) I've met.
My original post was purposefully flippant and provocative. It was an attempt to tackle the subject from a different angle and hopefully bi pass some of the standard scientific evidence blockades that usually stall this kind of discussion from getting off the ground.
I'm not asking anyone to believe me. I don't honestly care if they do or not. In fact I'd probably be quite skeptical of anyone who believed me without evidence or personal relatedness. All I'm asking is to be able to explore the possibilities.
Lallymac
Lallymac

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Before atoms, particles, waves, strings, humans, what exists. Where and what do all things that can be experienced through humanity, and without humanity, come from. What exists without the earth, space, universe and so on, but can create the whole lot? And how? Thats the realm of Spirit, which is the reason the mundane exists, or doesn't. It makes the mundane possible, but isn't effected by the mundane, so thats what I believe is outside the mundane or normal, but can shape and effect the mundane in any way it chooses. Spirit is us.

It sounds like you're describing spirit as "everything that we don't yet understand or can explain by other means."

Originally Posted by Lallymac

When you find yourself spontaneoulsy standing in the energy field of another human being on the other side of the world, feeling their physicality, hearing their thoughts, breathing their breath, looking out of their eyes and accurately describe their environment, you 'know' we are spirit/energy beings having physical experince.

I would love to experience that! It would certainly change my mind.

Originally Posted by Lallymac

"I've created my own mental search engine. When I get stuck, I imagine myself asking the question to my voice activated search engine, then wait to be shown the answer." I asked why he didn't do it earlier instead of waiting until he was at the end of his wits. He reckons it doesn't seem to work until he's exercised all his other options and then mumbled something about having to explain how he worked it out to his boss without compromising his credibility.

An interesting visualisation for accessing the universal mind.

I've had similar experiences (I'm also a programmer). Much of software development is the adaptation and application of existing solutions to new, but similar problems. Once in a while we'll come across a novel problem which doesn't seem like one with an existing solution. It almost always does have an existing solution, yet it can still stump us.

We'll think about the problem for ages, turning it upside-down and inside-out, looking it from different angles, picturing the problem apple as an orange or even a monkey and seeing if that allows us to come up with the solution (I know this from observing my own thoughts, and asking questions of colleagues to gauge their mental processes). We can cover almost all of the problem space looking for that solution (or one that can be adapted) but fail to connect with a small section that contains an answer.

It's when we stop thinking that our brain, continuing to work in the background beyond conscious thought, provides the answer that we already knew, making the connection which we couldn't consciously make. So while you see that as connecting with the universal mind, I see it as allowing our wonderful, yet entirely physical brain to do its work.

Originally Posted by Bruce Achterberg

I’ll admit that there have been times in my life where judgement from others has led me to I question whether or not I should leave my current path and become more “normal”, but I always bounce back with a hardened sense of clarity, knowing that I’ve made the right choice in being myself instead of trying to aspire to some sort of socially accepted image of what is “right” and what we “should” be.

Well said. I can understand why Lallymac made her comment about the 5 senses being boring. That's how I see normality. But perhaps, as with the 5 senses, normality isn't as bad as we make it seem? Perhaps it's ok to be "normal" as long as it's by conscious choice after considering the options rather than because everyone else is doing it. (for the record I've never considered myself "normal" nor anyone I've actually come to know. Which leads me to believe there's really no such thing as normal, which I guess is the reason for the quotes )

Originally Posted by Lallymac

It was an attempt to tackle the subject from a different angle and hopefully bi pass some of the standard scientific evidence blockades that usually stall this kind of discussion from getting off the ground.

And yet the need for empirical evidence is probably the most significant reason for the lack of acceptance by the general public. That, and my lack of personal experience, it the reason I don't accept it. I have no issue with exploring the possibilities though, but until I have undeniable personal experience or explanations which either fit within (or give me good reason to modify) my current understanding of the way things work, I would be denouncing my own principles and beliefs if I accepted ESP as a whole. I am willing to consider particular abilities, (and perhaps change my beliefs), on a case-by-case basis, such as the example you gave of your computer programmer friend (which clearly didn't change my beliefs ).

[Namaste]

Originally Posted by Lallymac

I saw an Eastern guru levitate a couple of years ago

Now, I would LOVE to see that! Tell us more! Where was it? Who is s/he? Where is s/he now?
I'm serious by the way.

[Lallymac]

Namaste,
I really wish I'd taken more notice. A friend dragged me along to a meditation evening with a visiting guru or avatar. The audience was mainly Chinese and because the meditations were in another language I was unable to follow it. I remeber there was a lot of silent meditation and reverence. The man was seated cross legged on a low platform and dressed in orange robes. During a long silent meditation his gold aura which had been close in to his body, extended and pulsated further and further out until it was rotating around the walls of the room. After what seemed like 10-15 minutes my friend and I noticed that the platform was 1-2 ft below his torso. Everyone else was bowed down in prayer. At the end, he walked around and stood in front of each person and if my memory serves me right, he touched his forehead against theirs. Some people passed out.
I'll see if I can find out who he was.
Lallymac