How many believe in God

[jader1966]

This is a discussion that always ends the same way. You either do or you don't or you're someone like I am. I'm on the fence on this one. I was raised as a Baptist, but began questioning many of the Baptist teachings. I have studied and experimented with numerous religions, and what I found was only more questions. But this is more about the question of whether there is a God, and the religions that should be able to answer this question can't agree on any details. Thru life experience, some very tragic life experiences, I can only say if there is a God, than he/she is like an absent parent at best, because this being doesn't seem to care at all about what is going on on this planet and to the lives of the people here.

[Melchior]

Currently of the stance that god (or something akin to it) might exist because I don't have enough information yet to make a reasonable decision. However, I think I'll let others find god for me and instead pursue things I feel to be more worthwhile.

**EDIT: I'd also like to say that I don't think the probability of the existence of god given what I currently know about this world is very high.

[PerDev]

Believing in god or not is polarized view and that is the side effect of mistakenly adopting duality instead of oneness.

so you believe in god or not is WRONG question itself.
you cann;t get right answer if you are asking wrong questions.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by PerDev

Believing in god or not is polarized view and that is the side effect of mistakenly adopting duality instead of oneness.

so you believe in god or not is WRONG question itself.
you cann;t get right answer if you are asking wrong questions.

I like that, but it seems to fall short of being useful.

What's an example of a right question?

[PerDev]

One is : WHO AM I

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I like that, but it seems to fall short of being useful.

What's an example of a right question?

[rei]

i believe in a divine oneness. i believe we are all the "supreme creator" and i believe we are meant to save ourselves instead of giving our power away to something that is supposed to be outside of us. nothing exists outside of us that isn't also inside of us (basic principle from ancient spirituality, but it holds water for me).

we ARE "God"/dess. separation is an illusion, we wanted to see what it's like to pretend we aren't a supreme creator, so we started this game. and one of our goals is to remember our inherent unity.

[Betrade]

I'm absolutely, undoubtedly convinced that there is a God. I can't say for sure what religions have what absolute truths because people of different religions get their prayers answered and I can't claim to understand God with my tiny human brain. I do believe that God is way bigger and way more mysterious than any belief system created by humans.



I had an amazing answer to prayer just yesterday. I got a really pathetic paycheck last week and didn't have enough money to pay the bills. One in particular is very important. I've also been working for my brother and he was supposed to pay me more than enough to pay that bill on Saturday as well as enough to get me through the week (times have been tough BTW), but he didn't have it; which really put me in a jam.

I was flat broke about an hour after cashing my check on Friday; and still needed 124.00; minimum; just to pay the bills. I didn't want to borrow any money because I have no idea when I could pay it back; so I fasted and prayed Saturday and Sunday. I have no idea how or why fasting makes prayer more effective, but it seems to for me. I certainly can't say why; but if something works, I'll continue to use it.

Last night about 7:00 PM, a friend showed up unannounced and just randomly handed me a check for 135.00 for no reason whatsoever. I asked what it was for, thinking that maybe he owed me for something, but his answer was; "because you're my friend and I just had a strong feeling you could use it". He didn't say anything like "God told me to give it to you". It wasn't like that.

I didn't question it, I thanked my friend and told him I wouldn't even normally accept it, but that I had an important bill to pay and had been praying for a solution; not money specifically.

So, I thanked God for such an amazing answer; and will be paying that bill in a few hours. I''ll still be basically broke until my brother pays me, but that bill will be paid. I was also able to sleep last night without worrying about that bill.

I don't understand God, nor do I pretend to, but I'm convinced that God exists. I can't prove it, nor do I ever try to; but I believe it. I don't try and convert anyone to any belief system and never have, but if someone asks me, I'll gladly tell them why I believe based on my own life and experiences. I can't not believe. That would defy my logic and fly in the face of what I have seen and experienced.

People just don't show up and randomly hand out checks to their friends. It's just not normal. What other explanation could there possibly be when things like this happen; especially after two days of prayer?? No one even knew about that bill but myself, my kids and my ex wife (and God of course); and my friend hasn't talked to any of them recently. In fact; only one of my kids even knows this person.

There is no logical explanation when things like this happen; but it sure feels great when they do.

[rei]

Bertrade, that is an amazing and inspiring story! i have a sort of personal idea about why fasting improves effectiveness. let me know if you're interested. as far as i know, the theory is not related to any particular belief system.

[MichaelMaxwell]

I think that there is an inter-connectivity between all things and if you were to call anything God it would be the sum of that. I think it is dangerous to anthropomorphisize metaphysical concepts, for a variety of reasons, mainly being that we end up relating to the human form from our lower chakras, so no gray beard guy in robes. I do think though, that this energy has an order to it, and that its possible to mimic that order and become like it, I also think that the energy has a consciousness to it that desires for that to happen.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by rei

i believe in a divine oneness. i believe we are all the "supreme creator" and i believe we are meant to save ourselves instead of giving our power away to something that is supposed to be outside of us. nothing exists outside of us that isn't also inside of us (basic principle from ancient spirituality, but it holds water for me).

I tend to separate the concepts of "divinity" and "oneness"; they seem like two different things to me, but that's probably because I didn't get to where I am via ideas like "the Source". Divinity is a strange concept, and I cannot say I really understand it. The concept itself, I mean, as opposed to having some idea of where to find it.

Originally Posted by MichaelMaxwell

I think that there is an inter-connectivity between all things and if you were to call anything God it would be the sum of that.

That pretty much sums up my own ideas on the subject.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I tend to separate the concepts of "divinity" and "oneness"; they seem like two different things to me, but that's probably because I didn't get to where I am via ideas like "the Source". Divinity is a strange concept, and I cannot say I really understand it. The concept itself, I mean, as opposed to having some idea of where to find it.

divinity and oneness are two different ideas, i merely believe in a oneness that is meaningful, purposeful, and full of unconditional love. inter-connectiveness is also implied in what i said, in the oneness piece. and truthfully, if the thread topic weren't about "God" i might not have said "divine oneness" but i do connect with the idea of divinity.

i just looked it up, and "divine" has a connotation that i don't always intend. (i am an ordained minister, but i'm an ordained minister of sacred light which doesn't fit some of the definitions.) perhaps "sacred oneness" is more accurate for my beliefs. or maybe it isn't. the idea of adding a signifier to "oneness" is ironic and can obviously create a sense of division based on your response. thank you for helping me get to that point of understanding.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by MichaelMaxwell

I think that there is an inter-connectivity between all things and if you were to call anything God it would be the sum of that. I think it is dangerous to anthropomorphisize metaphysical concepts, for a variety of reasons, mainly being that we end up relating to the human form from our lower chakras, so no gray beard guy in robes. I do think though, that this energy has an order to it, and that its possible to mimic that order and become like it, I also think that the energy has a consciousness to it that desires for that to happen.

I agree that we can't anthropomorphisize God. The moment we even try and describe God we have reduced the incomprehensible to something that we can attempt to comprehend.

I can't say who or what God is with certainty, but I have always believed that God exists; even when I was extremely young. I think it's an instinct with a majority of humans; and is probably there for good reason.

If we're created by some being outside of time, matter and space, then we must have been created for a reason. This creator of all things must want us to at least be aware of this; or we wouldn't even entertain the thought.

There is also the issue of morality. C.S. Lewis was an atheist turned Christian. He denied God because of the existence of pain, suffering, etc. He then realized that all of those negatives forced him to acknowledge that good also exists, which pointed him to a good creator.

If we're truly just random beings that pooped into existence for no reason and no purpose, then morality doesn't truly exist, because if we're just matter, then we cannot judge matter, because matter doesn't care what other matter does. If we're just matter and chemicals (which are also matter) in action, then what we do is of no consequence. Maybe it's called "matter"; because we do "matter" and there is a God and a purpose behind all of this.

If there isn't, then we're just wasting our time on any type of spiritual quests and fooling ourselves because we'll all be dead soon anyway; so why not just eat, drink and be merry, the consequences be damned??

[Melchior]

Originally Posted by Betrade

If we're truly just random beings that pooped into existence for no reason and no purpose, then morality doesn't truly exist, because if we're just matter, then we cannot judge matter, because matter doesn't care what other matter does. If we're just matter and chemicals (which are also matter) in action, then what we do is of no consequence. Maybe it's called "matter"; because we do "matter" and there is a God and a purpose behind all of this.

If there isn't, then we're just wasting our time on any type of spiritual quests and fooling ourselves because we'll all be dead soon anyway; so why not just eat, drink and be merry, the consequences be damned??

Because that's not good enough You're still interacting with/as existence whether you like it or not. Even if all meaning is taken away, there is still a will to live. Why? Because, for the time being, you are alive, of course.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Betrade

If we're truly just random beings that pooped into existence for no reason and no purpose, then morality doesn't truly exist, because if we're just matter, then we cannot judge matter, because matter doesn't care what other matter does. If we're just matter and chemicals (which are also matter) in action, then what we do is of no consequence.

What do you mean what we do is of no consequence? If I punch you, doesn't that matter? Isn't there a consequence, and we can mutually agree that it's a good or a bad thing based on an understanding of what we both went through? Doesn't that provide the foundation for morality?

Our molecular make-up, divinely inspired or not, isn't where morality comes from. As has been pointed out numerous times in history, if free will didn't exist, we really ought to pretend that it does.

[Gene]

Originally Posted by rei

Bertrade, that is an amazing and inspiring story! i have a sort of personal idea about why fasting improves effectiveness. let me know if you're interested. as far as i know, the theory is not related to any particular belief system.

I would be interested in hearing your theory. You can PM it to me if you think it more appropriate than posting in open forums.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

What do you mean what we do is of no consequence? If I punch you, doesn't that matter? Isn't there a consequence, and we can mutually agree that it's a good or a bad thing based on an understanding of what we both went through? Doesn't that provide the foundation for morality?

Our molecular make-up, divinely inspired or not, isn't where morality comes from. As has been pointed out numerous times in history, if free will didn't exist, we really ought to pretend that it does.

I'm talking about no consequence in the big scheme of things; like, once we're dead; we're dead and our lives wouldn't have mattered one way or another, had we ever existed or not.

[Coffeesmurf]

I'm agnostic. I think Lance Armstrongs quote on religion really sums up my thoughts nicely:

At the end of the day, if there was indeed some body or presence standing there to judge me, I hoped I would be judged on whether I had lived a true life, not on whether I believed in a certain book, or whether I'd been baptized. If there was indeed a god at the end of my days, I hoped he didn't say, 'But you were never a Christian, so you're going the other way from heaven.' If so, I was going to reply, 'You know what? You're right. Fine'.

[joelr]

I like God but he loves me so it's awkward.














J.K. God.

[rei]

Originally Posted by joelr

I like God but he loves me so it's awkward.














J.K. God.

LOL that was awesome. i'm sure God knows you're joking - he has a great sense of humor. i'm sure we can all think of examples as proof.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Betrade

I'm talking about no consequence in the big scheme of things; like, once we're dead; we're dead and our lives wouldn't have mattered one way or another, had we ever existed or not.

Do you feel a need to matter at such a level? What if our civilization one day reaches the cross-galactic scale? What if we figure out a way to change the way the universe expands, or to move galaxies around? Is that big enough to make you feel like you matter, or should we be looking at even greater things?

[PerDev]

Believing GOD is perspective.

Sometime I have used this perspective and sometime not ..

[joelr]

Originally Posted by rei

LOL that was awesome. i'm sure God knows you're joking - he has a great sense of humor.

True.

In the Old Testament not so much.

According to the reflection principle any description of God's sense of humor is only a small glimpse or reflection of the actual sense of humor.
So yeah he must have a great SOH.





i hope...

[tradewiz50]

Jesus said... the Kingdom of God is inside you, and all around you, not in mansions of wood and stone. Split a piece of wood... and I am there, lift a stone... and you will find me.

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

Do you feel a need to matter at such a level? What if our civilization one day reaches the cross-galactic scale? What if we figure out a way to change the way the universe expands, or to move galaxies around? Is that big enough to make you feel like you matter, or should we be looking at even greater things?

Not particularly, but I do think that it would be nice if life after death exists and that I could spend it with my kids, friends, family, etc. I mean, if we just stop existing, then we don't have much to look forward in the long run to do we?? I'll likely be dead within the next 30- 40 years max (if I last that long and don't have a fatal accident today or whenever), and if that's it, then it just seems pointless in a way IMO. I mean, who wants to atop existing?? I'm sure that many do; but I believe that most do not and I know that I don't. I like being conscious and aware.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Betrade

Not particularly, but I do think that it would be nice if life after death exists and that I could spend it with my kids, friends, family, etc. I mean, if we just stop existing, then we don't have much to look forward in the long run to do we?? I'll likely be dead within the next 30- 40 years max (if I last that long and don't have a fatal accident today or whenever), and if that's it, then it just seems pointless in a way IMO. I mean, who wants to atop existing?? I'm sure that many do; but I believe that most do not and I know that I don't. I like being conscious and aware.

in my view the first law of thermodynamics (or i think it's the first one) applies here. energy cannot be created or destroyed. but it can change forms.

i don't think consciousness can stop existing. i think when we transition to a non-earth existence state, we have the option of bringing the memory of our physical form (kind of like the residual self-image idea in the Matrix). i like being conscious and aware too, i'm not sure i'll ever understand the appeal of nihilism (or of its close cousin, objectivism).

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Betrade

I mean, if we just stop existing, then we don't have much to look forward in the long run to do we??

I have much to look forward to. I work in the hopes that the world will be a better place in a couple thousand years, as a result of what I do. My participation on this forum is a small part of that work.

I am not bothered that I will be dead within a thousand years, my name likely forgotten, my children and all the people I could have known also dead; I am just one and not a terribly important one, and I don't have enough ego to be concerned about my memory: just my legacy.

Originally Posted by Betrade

I'll likely be dead within the next 30- 40 years max (if I last that long and don't have a fatal accident today or whenever), and if that's it, then it just seems pointless in a way IMO.

How long would your life need to be for it to not seem pointless? A hundred years? A thousand? A trillion?

The first time I asked you about scale, you said, "Not particularly." But then you went and delivered the same sentiment from a different angle: that something external has to give you purpose and meaning for you to have purpose and meaning. Is this what you believe?

Originally Posted by Betrade

I mean, who wants to atop existing?? I'm sure that many do; but I believe that most do not and I know that I don't. I like being conscious and aware.

Non-existence isn't something we aspire for, no. If it were, then the human race ought to lie themselves down and die now, or to never have arisen in the first place. Why bother ourselves with existence when we seek its opposite?

So why exist? Why do you exist? Why do you live? The essence of conscious living begins with a confrontation with death. Why not death? Why shouldn't you kill yourself now? Because society says you shouldn't? Because it would be sorrowful and inconvenient to your family and friends? Or because you want to live?

Not that you like to live: you seem to like living mostly because it means you're not dead. That's not choosing to live; that's choosing not to die. It is a vague, lethargic decision.

What, Betrade, is your raison d'etre? Do you have a joie de vivre? What makes you conscious and aware? What do you see around you? What wisdom do you grasp? What is your passion?

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I have much to look forward to. I work in the hopes that the world will be a better place in a couple thousand years, as a result of what I do. My participation on this forum is a small part of that work.

I am not bothered that I will be dead within a thousand years, my name likely forgotten, my children and all the people I could have known also dead; I am just one and not a terribly important one, and I don't have enough ego to be concerned about my memory: just my legacy.



How long would your life need to be for it to not seem pointless? A hundred years? A thousand? A trillion?

The first time I asked you about scale, you said, "Not particularly." But then you went and delivered the same sentiment from a different angle: that something external has to give you purpose and meaning for you to have purpose and meaning. Is this what you believe?



Non-existence isn't something we aspire for, no. If it were, then the human race ought to lie themselves down and die now, or to never have arisen in the first place. Why bother ourselves with existence when we seek its opposite?

So why exist? Why do you exist? Why do you live? The essence of conscious living begins with a confrontation with death. Why not death? Why shouldn't you kill yourself now? Because society says you shouldn't? Because it would be sorrowful and inconvenient to your family and friends? Or because you want to live?

Not that you like to live: you seem to like living mostly because it means you're not dead. That's not choosing to live; that's choosing not to die. It is a vague, lethargic decision.

What, Betrade, is your raison d'etre? Do you have a joie de vivre? What makes you conscious and aware? What do you see around you? What wisdom do you grasp? What is your passion?

When I said "not particularly, I meant ti. OTOH, I'm just sayin' that I would PREFER; if given the choice, that life have more meaning than just the infintessimally small sliver of time we get on this Earth compared to the magnificent, huge and incomprehensible fullness of time.

In other words, what "is to be" is fine, but if I had my druther's, I'd druther live forever as an individual and not have my existence snuffed out in one moment, like, being here one second and then gone the next; but I have no choice either way and I'l have to take whatever comes again;(as if I have a choice), so it's not something that I dwell on.

I don't spend any time worrying about the things I have no control over. I didn't create myself, I wasn't always here, and I was just as fine when I didn't exist as I am when I do exist (maybe even better; who knows??), but now that I do exist; I kinda' like it a whole lot to say the least; so I'm not in any hurry whatsoever for that existence to end, despite the fact that it may and that if it does, it will be ebyond my control.

I also don't particularly want to lose the relationships I have with the people I love; especially my kids. Before they came along, as much as I had loved (and BOY have I loved!!); I never fully realized what true; unconditional love was; and now that I understand; and really love having that love in my life, I would prefer that it be eternal rather than temporary.

I mean, I love lots of people and always have, as well as having those who love me, but those kids showed me a whole new dimension/level of what love really is. I'm not obsessed with my kids or anything like that, but I would lay down my life in a moment for any of them, even if it meant losing my existence. OTOH, I would prefer that the relationship never end IF I had a choice in the matter.

Only Time will tell; or should I say, eternity will; but either way, I'll accept whatever comes with no regrets and be grateful for the time and the love that I have been given no matter what happens; not to mentions all of the experiences; both good and "bad" that have made me who I am and taught me the lessons I have learned so far.

That's another point. I like the idea of continuing to learn. There are lots of unanswered questions about the mysteries of existence that I would really like to ask God; and receive answers to; if indeed God indeed exists (which I DO believe; not because I have been taught to believe; but almost instinctually; if that makes any sense) and I get the opportunity to sit down and have a two way heart to heart with God for a gazillion years or so.

I have lots of questions; some deep; some not so deep like; "What's up with that trunk thing on elephants and how did you ever come up with a Platypus"; among about a million others. Think about it. there are so many "whys" that we couldn't possibly learn in one little lifetime. It's just not long enough; even if we didn't have to sleep away a third of our lives it wouldn't be enough time to know all of the things that can be known.

I think we all have questions that we would like answered and who wouldn't want to sit down with the greatest mind in existence and pick that brain?? That alone could take an eternity; and I can only imagine how cool all of those answers would be.

Does that make sense??

[Jaiysun4]

I think that a belief in God, or something deeper than the physical world... of some divine order that means justice is inevitably served, is a very APPEALING belief.

It seems natural to believe in something more, but I think the stories that are told and the rationalisations of religious experience are myths (i.e. stories of religious characters), or are unverifiable or false.

In other words, it seems natural to revere and believe, but at the same time doing so is unrational in the sense that it leads (not on the basis of scientific evidence, but on the need to be content and to comfort one's self) to unwarranted assumptions and adherence to dogma.

This trade off, between logical thinking and greater emotional satisfaction, is a very difficult one, for it asks if you value truth more than happiness. And i think valuing truth, more than happiness, is the more difficult route, because you sacrifice the comfort that not questioning yourself brings. However, it is probably not the better option, because most people value happiness more than truth.

For example - i have flirted with becoming a Muslim. But i wanted to do it, because i felt shame about previous actions, and was confused about my place in the world. I could have become a Muslim and it would have given me structure, friends, confidence in my belief system (that i am RIGHT and others are WRONG), and most importantly contentment as i made up for past actions.

However, i choose not to on the basis of science and ockhams razor, on the basis of not believing certain minor articles of faith that all must be followed as one, etc.

I have no doubt that believing would make me a better person and would make me contribute more to society etc. So what I am saying is that it is ok to purposefully hold false beliefs if it leads to positive consequences.

So no i dont believe in God, but i frequently pretend (very convincingly) to myself that i do!

p.s. Some posts have been really great but i don't have the time to name any of them.

[Meleagar]

Originally Posted by DaveTyler

How many on here believe in God, Im not talking about the christian god but if ou believe in him thats ok too.

Just want to see how many believe the universe was made by a supreme being after all the SR and Matrix talk that has been around here.


Personally I believe God is ALL, nothing can be seperate from God. I believe we can be one with this God when all illusionary seperation dissapears (enlightenment).
I think all is divine and love. So basically even the ants that crawls in the ground , bites you and annoys the ************ out of you is divine and has as much right as you to live. Ofcourse this is going extreme but killing any life form with out itbeing nessascary is wrong I think

How could I not believe in myself?

Being God, nothing I do is ever wrong. I am perfect as I am. I find you perfect as you are, and the world perfect as it is. How could it be otherwise?

[Betrade]

Originally Posted by Meleagar

How could I not believe in myself?

Being God, nothing I do is ever wrong. I am perfect as I am. I find you perfect as you are, and the world perfect as it is. How could it be otherwise?

I believe that we all have some divine spark in us, but I do not believe that I; or any other human being is God almighty. I don';t really say how anyone can believe that after thinking about it for say, 20 or 30 seconds; tops. But, I know that many do; like many in the New Age movement and other belief systems.

Although this notion is popular in many circles, I can't buy into it; because I KNOW that I did not create the universe; the galaxies, starts, black holes, life, the oceans, etc.; and for that matter, I didn't even create me; so how could I, or anyone else actually be God?? I can't see it.

I believe that God probably experiences what we do; through us, but that we're created and that we're not the first cause. If we were, we would have far more knowledge and no real reason to seek knowledge because we would have infinite intelligence, awareness and knowledge. Growth would be completely unnecessary.

We also wouldn't be killing each other, or even being petty in any way because we would know better. We wouldn't even consider doing many of the things that we do

I know lots of folks disagree with my view, and that's fine. I just can't buy into the notion that humans are God. If we were, I'm convinced we would be doing a far better job of being human.