God has died

[Akashic_Librarian]

Along time ago people lived in constant fear that a deity would smite them should they do wrong. Every civillisation had some onipotent force who ruled their life and ruled their hearts. But as time passed people evolved, they grew and understood. They asked where was this "God" in times of need a worry? Why did the "Sinners" not be struck with lightening like those in the old stories? And they understood slowly that this "God" Whether he existed or not, was no longer with them. God had Died.

Thats what I would like to say about society.

But instead all I can say is that people never really moved on from these dark times. So many people still fear the wrath of a Shadow. A story. A legend.

I don't want to go on a rant like so many people do on this forum. I don't want messages filled with hate or Zeal or ignorance. I want an intelligent discussion on why people think a God or power external to them, exists. What is the cause of it, and is there anyway to retain these beliefs, but avoid the negativeside effects like Terrorism, unwanted births etc...etc.

[Liara Covert]

If you choose to believe, dialogue with and about God can seem circular. You may stumble on it by chance, or you may sense its part of the journey to get in touch with your soul. You may sense God is an entity outside you or, you may sense it is the voice of your core. Whether or not you think you're connected to something greater than yourself remains to be seen.

[OlderWiser]

Although I'm not personally keen to justify what I may or may not believe about that which I may or may not perceive as "God", the title of this thread does remind me of a joke:

Nietzsche: "God is dead."
God: "Nietzsche is dead."

[Chet]

At a certain level of consiousness people need to think of God as some external force, like children need a mother to look after them. When they grow beyond that their need for 'God' changes, so the way of thinking does too.
If you are lucky your mother once held you and protected you and when you grew she became a friend you could turn too and share with.

So it is with God, he is what we need him to be. As we grow, so does he.

[Cantando]

God cannot be known through consciousness, not matter how conscious you think you are. We cannot know God fully in this life. We can only catch glimpses from time to time. Build a little bird-house in your soul. Keep it swept and clean every day and you never know, one day, you will find something nice there - a gift from God, to let you know he is there and he cares, something to just tidy you over, till you depart from this world.
I wish you would all stop worrying so much! It WILL be OK!

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by OlderWiser

Nietzsche: "God is dead."
God: "Nietzsche is dead."

Hilarious!!!

This also illustrates that man does not control the universe so there must exist a greater power or force - however we choose to define IT.

There is no question we humans are limited to what we can understand beyond what our senses are able to observe.

To determine whether and/or what type of Deity exists is something we must either deduce by reason, believe in with faith, or know intuitively (know it, but not know how you know it) or by all three (as I do).

[Lychee]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Hilarious!!!

This also illustrates that man does not control the universe so there must exist a greater power or force - however we choose to define IT.

There is no question we humans are limited to what we can understand beyond what our senses are able to observe.

To determine whether and/or what type of Deity exists is something we must either deduce by reason, believe in with faith, or know intuitively (know it, but not know how you know it) or by all three (as I do).

I agree...

[infinitethoughts]

*Bump* to top of post.

Originally Posted by Chet

At a certain level of consiousness people need to think of God as some external force, like children need a mother to look after them. When they grow beyond that their need for 'God' changes, so the way of thinking does too.

[Sunnybayes]

I'll argue that the concept of God the feeling of god inside of you is what allows you to get into a creative and "Synergetic" / leadership state.

That's how Jesus became such an awesome leader, he never closed out the feeling of God, which let him be highly intelligent.

[Shamou]

God has died...??? yike... I did not even know He was sick...

.

[Dharma]

Why do people think that God or power external to themselves exists? That's easy. They don't want to know themselves as creator. If something I judge as terrible happens within my experience, I can just blame God instead of myself. It's much easier to be a victim and unconscious, than to be a conscious creator.

You cannot retain beliefs about a higher power and avoid things like terrorism, unwanted births, and other "problems". To bring a solution to any of these things you need to bring consciousness to them. In what I mean by consciousness is the fact that "I am creator here". Around the world nations try to solve problems by using the mind, the heart, and also the root (war/battle). A new consciousness needs to be injected here. Not more mind, or more heart, or more root.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

...This also illustrates that man does not control the universe so there must exist a greater power or force - however we choose to define IT.

I don't understand. How does that illustrate that man does not control the universe, and why does that mean a greater force must exist?

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

I don't understand. How does that illustrate that man does not control the universe, and why does that mean a greater force must exist?

It means that Nietzsche is dead for sure i.e. he had no control over that fact, nor do any of us. God may be have been dead figuratively for Nietzsche but that's the best Nietzsche could do - proclaim him dead in concept.

A greater force exists because we, as humans have not created ourselves nor anything else in the universe. We are very limited physically and in our ability to know beyond what we can observe with our senses. We aspire to higher levels of consciousness, however there is no question that we are limited by our material confinement (our senses, bodies etc.).

[Ree]

In my experience in a very fundamental religion during my youth, I noticed that folks seemed to use the prospect of an afterlife in "heaven" as a way of allowing themselves to live at or near the poverty level in this life. Their "reward" was in heaven. They didn't have to take personal responsibility for their present situation. Another poster made a comment similar to this and I have to agree that I think that's a big part of humanity's desire to have an omnipotent God in the picture.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Ree

In my experience in a very fundamental religion during my youth, I noticed that folks seemed to use the prospect of an afterlife in "heaven" as a way of allowing themselves to live at or near the poverty level in this life. Their "reward" was in heaven. They didn't have to take personal responsibility for their present situation. Another poster made a comment similar to this and I have to agree that I think that's a big part of humanity's desire to have an omnipotent God in the picture.

How people choose to define God, and the fact that they relinquish their personal responsibility has nothing to do with whether God does or doesn't exist.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

It means that Nietzsche is dead for sure i.e. he had no control over that fact, nor do any of us. God may be have been dead figuratively for Nietzsche but that's the best Nietzsche could do - proclaim him dead in concept.

Hmmm, well then Nietzsche is as much alive is God is. If we're talking about verifiable existence, Nietzsche's bones will show that he did at least once live. There's no equal proof where God is concerned. And if we're talking about conceptual existence, God may have been around for longer, but both still exist in books and in minds.

Originally Posted by ZHereford

A greater force exists because we, as humans have not created ourselves nor anything else in the universe. We are very limited physically and in our ability to know beyond what we can observe with our senses. We aspire to higher levels of consciousness, however there is no question that we are limited by our material confinement (our senses, bodies etc.).

That we didn't create ourselves or the universe only means that we didn't. It doesn't mean that there definitely is a God who did. All it means is that we don't know, yet.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Hmmm, well then Nietzsche is as much alive is God is. If we're talking about verifiable existence, Nietzsche's bones will show that he did at least once live. There's no equal proof where God is concerned. And if we're talking about conceptual existence, God may have been around for longer, but both still exist in books and in minds.

That we didn't create ourselves or the universe only means that we didn't. It doesn't mean that there definitely is a God who did. All it means is that we don't know, yet.

Deep and powerful words Mark... somebody has been thinking about that stuff before he ever posted this...

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Hmmm, well then Nietzsche is as much alive is God is. If we're talking about verifiable existence, Nietzsche's bones will show that he did at least once live.......That we didn't create ourselves or the universe only means that we didn't. It doesn't mean that there definitely is a God who did. All it means is that we don't know, yet.

Nietzsche is physically dead. Whether he's alive in books, people's hearts, minds etc. is irrelevant. He is unable to function as Nietzsche and he has no control over that.

As far as creating anything it's obvious that we didn't. There is, however, a life force that exists which does/did the creating and you can call it whatever you want. It just makes it easier for purposes of communication to refer to it by the same name.

Ultimately, creation has and does take place and I know that we humans didn't create ourselves or the universe. Something or someone did. That is not an unreasonable deduction.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

I know that we humans didn't create ourselves or the universe. Something or someone did. That is not an unreasonable deduction.

Is it not possible that the universe has alway existed... and human are simply the result of evolution...???

.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Nietzsche is physically dead. Whether he's alive in books, people's hearts, minds etc. is irrelevant. He is unable to function as Nietzsche and he has no control over that.

Granted. But that says nothing about God.

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Ultimately, creation has and does take place and I know that we humans didn't create ourselves or the universe. Something or someone did. That is not an unreasonable deduction.

Agreed. What I find unreasonable is the certainty that that something or someone was God.

I agree with you Shamou, I think it's equally possible that the universe has always existed without God, or God existed first and created the universe.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Is it not possible that the universe has alway existed... and human are simply the result of evolution...???.

Sure it's possible but even evolution is driven by some life force or supreme intelligence.

[Sunnybayes]

For the curious, this site reasons that god lives in two time dimensions and that's how he could create the universe and be there before and after... and they really try to back it up with references.

God and Science

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

Sure it's possible but even evolution is driven by some life force or supreme intelligence.

Says who or what...???

You take an infinite number of monkeys typing for an infinite amount of time... and a perfect version of the bible will eventually be written... why could it not be the same for evolution...???

Trials and errors until we reached the point that we are at now...

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

What I find unreasonable is the certainty that that something or someone was God.

You can call that something or someone whatever you want. It doesn't have to be God.

There is no question in my mind, however, that there is some sort of intelligence running the show. Logic and reason dictate as much.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Sunnybayes

For the curious, this site reasons that god lives in two time dimensions and that's how he could create the universe and be there before and after... and they really try to back it up with references.

God and Science

Only glanced at the article... but I could Google for less then ten minutes and find equally credible articles that will say exactly the opposite...

.

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Says who or what...???

You take an infinite number of monkeys typing for an infinite amount of time... and a perfect version of the bible will eventually be written... why could it not be the same for evolution...???

Trials and errors until we reached the point that we are at now...

That scenario strikes me as unreasonable and improbable.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

There is no question in my mind, however, that there is some sort of intelligence running the show. Logic and reason dictate as much.

What logic do you use to arrive at that conclusion?

To make it fair I'll state why I believe logic and reason do not necessarily require an intelligent creator of the universe.

The First Cause argument, that there must have been something that created the universe, is logically false because it assumes God (or whatever we call it) is not subject to the same requirement for existence that everything else is. There's no logic in the statement that God doesn't require a creator because He's God.

The same applies to the design argument. If the complexity of the universe requires an intelligent designer, then that designer requires something even more intelligent to have designed it. And the turtles keep on coming...

Sunnybayes: Most of the references were references to the Bible. And the way they used the scientific knowledge was exactly the same way they, and many people, use statement in the bible. By choosing to interpret what was said in a way that supports their message, completely ignoring the context and limitations of the original statement.

For example this line comes from the Hebrew Bible, "The universe was formed at God's command, so that what was seen was not made out of what was visible." They used that line to conclude that "God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us."

They state that particle physics and relativity say that at least ten dimensions of space exist. It's actually String Theory that makes that claim (and gaining support as M-Theory, currently incomplete), though I assume they just wanted to use recognisable terms. Their logic falls apart when they fail to realise that all those dimensions are considered part of the universe, and that everything in the universe exists in all those dimensions, where the extra dimensions are compacted into the four visible spacetime dimensions. Therefore, God of four spacetime dimensions is no different, no more limited as they claim, than God of ten spacetime dimensions. And if He created the universe out of invisible spacetime dimensions, then He created the universe out of part of the universe.

Re: Infinite Monkeys. While Shamou is right, ZHereford is also right in that it's improbable. But Shamou's point is valid, evolution does explain the complexity and variety of living things in this world. Including monkeys.

[Carezza7]

I'd like to reference a podcast ("Bad Buddhist") episode I listened to recently. The host said that he didn't consider himself a Theist or an Athiest but, rather, an Apathist...that is, it really didn't matter what he believed since it was all belief (i.e. not scientifically provable fact) anyway. His belief in a God or external deity is meaningless and useless if there is no God or deity and his nonbelief in a God or deity is meaningless if there IS a God or deity. There is just NO WAY to prove these things.

I always find it humorous when some people, let's call them Christians, say things like psychic abilities can't exist or channeling cannot possibly happen...when, at the same time, it seems perfectly logical to them that a man (albeit one they believe to be God) rose from the stone cold dead after being horribly killed. Now, they may be absolutely right, mind you.....there's just NO WAY to prove it...and no way to DISPROVE it.

I,for one, choose to go the Apathist way. I am an unbeliever (in an external deity)...although knowing that I may be totally wrong...not that it matters one bit to the Universe. So there's not a lot of sense in fighting about your "religious" beliefs...since they are ONLY beliefs that have not (to the best of my knowledge) been physically proven...(yet)...

My little two cents worth. Love this thread, btw!

Mike

[Sunnybayes]

Originally Posted by Mark Lapierre

Sunnybayes: Most of the references were references to the Bible. And the way they used the scientific knowledge was exactly the same way they, and many people, use statement in the bible. By choosing to interpret what was said in a way that supports their message, completely ignoring the context and limitations of the original statement.

For example this line comes from the Hebrew Bible, "The universe was formed at God's command, so that what was seen was not made out of what was visible." They used that line to conclude that "God created the universe out of some of the dimensions of space and time which are not visible to us."

They state that particle physics and relativity say that at least ten dimensions of space exist. It's actually String Theory that makes that claim (and gaining support as M-Theory, currently incomplete), though I assume they just wanted to use recognisable terms. Their logic falls apart when they fail to realise that all those dimensions are considered part of the universe, and that everything in the universe exists in all those dimensions, where the extra dimensions are compacted into the four visible spacetime dimensions. Therefore, God of four spacetime dimensions is no different, no more limited as they claim, than God of ten spacetime dimensions. And if He created the universe out of invisible spacetime dimensions, then He created the universe out of part of the universe.

Hehe, I know it was crazy, I just thought it was kinda funny/clever how they reason that he exists and lives in 2 time dimensions.

But that's just what science is. "God" is just a label or an analogy. People have to agree on the definition. I guess I'm trying to label/define God in my own way to describe several different phenomena, and come up with my own analogies. But they're just making the best guess that they can given all the evidence and every time someone comes up with an objection then they have to redefine what God really means to incorporate those exceptions, just like any physical model. I just like their effort and their guesses that they've tried to muster out so far.

I think the upper level concept, label it God, or some phenomena, whatever it might be, might just be impossible to know, perhaps maybe that it has something to do with the uncertainty principle... so that its impossible to guess or know... I'm just thinking about this kind of stuff too.

Here's the analogy that I'm going for. The concept of God and the rules to follow him is analogous to a cell following its instructions of its DNA.... something along those lines, and that the God DNA is what tells humans how to form societies and relationships, like DNA tells cells how to work together "synergetically" to form a body. Edit: I guess you'd say that our DNA is just information and instructions for cells to work together, like laws of government and god are rules for us to work together to make a society.


And I also argue, that if you translate the word God correctly into your own language that you can relate to then there is some good advice.

I also think that the word faith boils down to the uncertainty principle of quantum mechanics. Its impossible to be 100% sure so faith is required eventually.

[Akashic_Librarian]

When you say god lives in two dimensions do you mean dimensions like length, width, depth etc...

OR Do you mean he lives into two universes...>?