How to become a believer?

[Ubershift]

The Cave: An Adaptation of Plato's Allegory in Clay - YouTube
Plato's Allegory of the Cave



The choice is yours. Atheism says very little about a persons beliefs (as you'll find Atheist Buddhists, Atheist Hindus, etc) and does not define you. All that is involved in atheism is a disbelief in God.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

God or no God, are you certain these things are within your control?

Why wouldn't they be?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

Why wouldn't they be?

Why would they be?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

They have been 'validated' because they weren't in error to begin with. Hehe. Hawky teaches from the same 'viewpoint' as Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Ramana, Nisargadatta, Mooji, Tony Parsons, etc, etc. If these teachings seem different to you, then you're not hearing what is being said. You're hearing what you want to hear.

Not at all. Every enlightened person's teachings are a reflection of the culture he lives in. No man exists in a vacuum.

And I think it's funny that you say you were never wrong.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Not at all. Every enlightened person's teachings are a reflection of the culture he lives in. No man exists in a vacuum.

They all point to the same truth, obviously in different ways.

And I think it's funny that you say you were never wrong.

I'm just saying I knew what Hawky was talking about before I read him. I didn't say anything about never being wrong, but I AM beginning to see how you misinterpreted Hawky.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Me: What knows of brain?

Mind knows of brain. Awareness knows of mind. Awareness knows of itself.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by VinceG

OK, you don't want to be open and real. I guess I have to go first. Sure, no biggie.

I think it's quite interesting that you would think this. Just yesterday, I paid ten bucks for a book on understanding women, even though I already consider myself quite adept already. I am outspoken about the need to get out and learn things and grow and move in life. I "buy" all the time. And I'm not shy about selling or admitting that I am, in fact, trying to sell. You tell me I'm not interested in buying when, not three posts ago, I said that my entire worldview was flipped around by David Hawkins.

You think I'm misinterpreting him. I'd love to know how. I'm happy now to be having a real effing discussion with you and you think I'm just playing games. But really I think you're just afraid to engage. I don't know what you think you're protecting. I'm think it might be this idea you secretly have that you're equivalent to all those sages you mentioned a few posts up.

You seem to go through all these strange backflips and perturbations. It's obvious you have some version of the truth that you think is right. Something ordered around the idea that the mind creates everything. You don't want to see this idea as just another philosophical construct like every other idea, equal on the intellectual playing field. No, it's Objective Truth, anyone who disagrees is simply wrong.

You're very eager to push that vision even on people with no interest in it, selling it and selling it until they have no choice to see it your way. I think you envision yourself a modern-day Socrates or something. Yet you say you "have nothing to sell," even while you busy yourself doing exactly that.

I step very lightly around people's beliefs, while you are heavy-handed with the intention to destroy them. Yet when someone wants to turn that around, you suddenly get very, very reticent, hiding behind your truth like it were a nuclear bunker, protecting yourself at all costs from those who would laugh at you. I did not know you'd ever read David Hawkins until today.

You honestly think I care about intellectual superiority or being condescending? Is that seriously the vibe you get from me? Do you see me making fun of other posters or doing anything besides trying to be genuinely helpful? Why do you see that in me, someone who's gallantly charged into a friggen demon hunt, probably the most embarrassing thing I've ever done in public.

Sorry, Vince. My cynicism with you is a learned response. Your invitation to share, consisting in part of "Oh?.......This oughta be good", didn't do much to reassure me of your sincerity. In any event, your sincerity, or lack of, is not really the primary issue here. Your comment that I 'don't want to be open and real' follows immediately behind the most 'real' thing I've had to say on this forum in quite a while.

I'm referring, of course, to the story I posted about todays squirrel satsang, which Marie and I found extremely powerful; the story ending with "I am", which is vaguely reminiscent of Hawkins' "Eye of the I", followed chronologically, I think, by "I", is pointing to the same thing Hawkins was pointing to (the truth), which was in fact what you had asked me to do.

The fact that you didn't so much as acknowledge that I had written it, is evidence that I was correct: that you have no interest in buying. I meant, from me, of course.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Mind knows of brain. Awareness knows of mind. Awareness knows of itself.

What is Awareness for you beyond an idea, and what knows of this idea? You put a name to the unnameable and you think you are done with it.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Sorry, Vince. My cynicism with you is a learned response. Your invitation to share, consisting in part of "Oh?.......This oughta be good", didn't do much to reassure me of your sincerity. In any event, your sincerity, or lack of, is not really the primary issue here. Your comment that I 'don't want to be open and real' follows immediately behind the most 'real' thing I've had to say on this forum in quite a while.

I'm referring, of course, to the story I posted about todays squirrel satsang, which Marie and I found extremely powerful; the story ending with "I am", which is vaguely reminiscent of Hawkins' "Eye of the I", followed chronologically, I think, by "I", is pointing to the same thing Hawkins was pointing to (the truth), which was in fact what you had asked me to do.

The fact that you didn't so much as acknowledge that I had written it, is evidence that I was correct: that you have no interest in buying. I meant, from me, of course.

See, this is you, hiding behind that truth again, like it were a nuclear bunker. You seem terrified to confront yourself. That part of you that is actually just like everyone else. Very protective.

You think I dismissed your story. I did not. I read your story, and thought it was pretty cool. I think it was awesome that you were able to give that experience to Marie. I've no doubt it was a very cool experience, it's really awesome to be able to share spirituality like that.

In fact, I actually am quite pleased by your message and how close it cuts to that Objective Truth that Hawkins and others point to. I like that you were able to patiently work your way through Beingist's mental jumble and get him to greater clarity. I have, in fact, been watching you for a very long time, slowly and patiently coming to an understanding of who you are and what you're about.

Why I did not acknowledge it in the first post is because it wasn't real, it wasn't direct. It was roundabout, circuitous, defensive. "Oh I answered your post, you just didn't want to see it that way!" like I'm the one being defensive.

This truth I think you're hiding from, I don't care about it at all. I don't care if you think you're Socrates. I don't care if you think you're Hawkins or Ramana. I would not laugh at you at all. In case you haven't seen this, I'm not exactly a paragon of self-effacement.

What I care about is the fact that this unseen internal conflict of yours is affecting the entire forum. The heavy handed-ness I referred to is a direct result of it. And I talk to a lot of people who feel that the dynamic you create here discourages others from sharing in the Spirituality section for fear of turning it into another Arcanum/Chris Ginsburg nothingness-fest.

It is not my intention to push you away or attack you or condescend to you. After all, I do like what you have to say. I just want to fix the dynamic. That means I have to convince you, somehow, to not be such a friggen ass all the time. Work a little harder to say what you have to say inside the belief systems of the person you're saying it to. It's not all that hard. It's really just a different language. Not even a language more like a spiritual dialect.

It would be nice if you could re-enter the realm of human beings and deal with yourself as a person with the ego you obviously have, a belief system you're obviously selling, and failings and desires just like everyone else.

Because despite your beliefs to the contrary, they do not dilute your message, nor do they invite attack. In fact, the very absence of those qualities is very jarring and very much takes away from people's ability to relate to what you have to say. It's not a "popularity contest" you're entering. It's just normal human relating.

Something us spiritual types can have trouble with sometimes.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

What is Awareness for you beyond an idea, and what knows of this idea? You put a name to the unnameable and you think you are done with it.

Mind knows of ideas.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Mind knows of ideas.

What knows of mind?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

What knows of mind?

I believe I answered that already.

[theuprising]

Originally Posted by gene2009

Raykilleen, thank you for the ebook. I'll read it. The problem is, there were very authority scientists in those programs. I couldn't ever imagined their words would so much magnet me. I want to break it but how. I always had my own opinion about life after.... And i was very sure in this.

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Indiana, i have no easy life. In other words, have experienced enough Hell on Earth. And atheism says - nothing doesn't metter. Ok, i'll go earning easy crime money for my family. I'll much drink, test different drugs because nothing does matter for me more.

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Perspective, i understand. Please, i don't try to be a deep religiose. Simple, i'm seeking of those scientists - they said it's nothing after die. I don't have anything in contrast to their scientific arguments.

But does it sit well with YOU? Doing all these things? I think some people just need religion though, and you may be one of them, look into some, Christianity is a very human religion. The eastern ones have a more existential tone to them, they also frown upon doing bad things.

[cacheborn]

The thread is now open. Please keep the discussion within limits so that it helps the OP.