The nature of Suffering

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I wouldn't say it's injury. I think it's just the allowing of the sadness. Sitting with it and letting it be fully. Even to fully recognize that separation is illusion doesn't make losing loved ones easy. The process of mourning is as natural as a good hearty laugh.

Exactamente.
Nisargadatta said: "I leave my human nature to unfold according to whatever its destiny is. I remain as I am."

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

And so to jump ahead a bit, maybe there is a solution to this dilemma. Folks can keep their depth of feeling but lose the suffering that seems to supply that depth. In our stillness there is a vertical movement that is stronger and deeper than any horizontal movement, and yet it is devoid of suffering because it is a submerging into the heart of being. The intensity of unconditional Love and the Peace that passes all understanding are examples of such, and yet they also don't deny the shattering depths of grief or heartbreaking compassion.

You forgot "Q.E.D."

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Ok, rethinking…considering states of consciousness; level, potential, capacity, expansion, in tune. Once one's consciousness is in tune with existence, then compassion becomes a very natural state therefore murder is needed for survival, if it moves eat it!

That's my policy; "If it moves, eat it!" Hehe.
In the continuum of what we call the evolution of consciousness, simple, sentient creatures develop the ability to cognize and to feel, but without the sophistication to contemplate their own fate as a self apart from other selves. It's not that the squirrel doesn't distinguish between itself and another, only that it does not project that self into an imaginary future and struggle with it's own projection. This is a highly sophisticated cognitive process.

To humans who have learned to own the content of their own thoughts, it seems impossible that the thought to bury nuts in the fall could occur without the angst of imagination and projection of future scenarios, and yet nature unfolds as one and so the thought DOES occur, and action DOES spontaneously follow. The squirrel does not need to know why he does what he does because he is already cared for as part of the nature of his own being. He is present always, as thought occurs and action follows and the river of life flows on unimpeded by personalized doership.

However, lacking the potential for contemplation, the creatures of the forest cannot transcend the boundaries of their own consciousness, and this is the gift of self awareness in human consciousness. This potential comes at the price of suffering, since that which can transcend it's own boundaries must be starkly aware of them. One does not formulate an escape plan unless one is quite clear as to his imprisonment. Human consciousness finds itself in the unique position of facing the possibility of self transcendence because of his ability to suffer his own perceived limitations.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, I think there is that aspect of sadness to saying goodbye to someone you've had a great time with, and there's also the other thing people do with grief, the suffery part -- where the sadness is protected and nurtured as a resource.

Yes, or there is simply the idea that something has gone wrong and is not as it should be.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That's my policy; "If it moves, eat it!" Hehe.
In the continuum of what we call the evolution of consciousness, simple, sentient creatures develop the ability to cognize and to feel, but without the sophistication to contemplate their own fate as a self apart from other selves. It's not that the squirrel doesn't distinguish between itself and another, only that it does not project that self into an imaginary future and struggle with it's own projection. This is a highly sophisticated cognitive process.

To humans who have learned to own the content of their own thoughts, it seems impossible that the thought to bury nuts in the fall could occur without the angst of imagination and projection of future scenarios, and yet nature unfolds as one and so the thought DOES occur, and action DOES spontaneously follow. The squirrel does not need to know why he does what he does because he is already cared for as part of the nature of his own being. He is present always, as thought occurs and action follows and the river of life flows on unimpeded by personalized doership.

However, lacking the potential for contemplation, the creatures of the forest cannot transcend the boundaries of their own consciousness, and this is the gift of self awareness in human consciousness. This potential comes at the price of suffering, since that which can transcend it's own boundaries must be starkly aware of them. One does not formulate an escape plan unless one is quite clear as to his imprisonment. Human consciousness finds itself in the unique position of facing the possibility of self transcendence because of his ability to suffer his own perceived limitations.

Should we consider that different forms of life function in different states of consciousness? The consciousness of a plant is very different than that of a fish, that of a fish is different than that of a fly, that of a fly is different than that of an ant, that of an ant is different than that of a dog, that of a dog is different than that of a human being. Depending on the level of sophistication of an organism, they will be more or less sensitive and awake. The level of wakefulness in the animals which are being killed in the factories is much more so than that of an insect. Fact is that it simply may be unnecessary to create so much suffering when we already have developed enough science and technology to live well without the need for eating meat, it’s simply a luxury. The animals that are in the factories may not possess such a sophisticated intellect like us, nor are they capable of something like self-inquiry, reading a book, solving algebra, or meditation but as far as their instincts are concerned, their instincts are keenly sharper than ours, in some cases as well as their intuition. If animals in the wild are in the middle of a forest and a storm is coming, even days before its arrival, they are able to detect it. If we are put in the middle of a forest, we will not even be able to tell whether a storm is coming or even perhaps what time of day it is, unless of course we have lived integrated in nature for some time, then there may be a possibility of awakening such intuition. There are in fact many things which animals are capable of perceiving which we are not because our senses are not as well equipped. Dogs can hear many frequencies which extend well beyond the human ear, in such a way that if any human were capable of the same, he would be declared as having superhuman capabilities but the problem may be that still somewhere in our minds, we believe ourselves to be superior to the other animals just simply because we have a more developed intellect, there is still a certain inner prejudice behind your statements. As far as pain, fear, and physical suffering are concerned, these are not things which require tremendous intelligence, they happen at a gut-level. The kind of physical suffering that we experience, which is basically animal nature, and the kind of physical suffering that the animals experience are not different. Man himself has evolved out of the other animals, and his ancient instincts are basically inherited from them. Yes, in other ways he is more awake and sensitive, but his instinct for survival is basically out of his animal nature. If we really do not see them as separate, then whether we torture an animal or a human being, you are torturing each other, it makes no difference. There is another dimension that is involved, because even if we insist that it is different, it still does not remove the fact that just by being violent towards others, we are strengthening the tendency of the mind to be violent. Whether we are violent to a worm, a plant, or a human being, violence is violence. The object of violence does not matter. In the first place, it is impossible to be violent towards others unless you are first violent with yourself, just as it is impossible to love others unless you first love yourself and if we have a violent mind then it will seek many ways to express itself, not just one. Its ways of expression will be almost inexhaustible. Yet I occasionally eat meat while this chatter goes through my head, spiritual dissonance.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Should we consider that different forms of life function in different states of consciousness? The consciousness of a plant is very different than that of a fish, that of a fish is different than that of a fly, that of a fly is different than that of an ant, that of an ant is different than that of a dog, that of a dog is different than that of a human being. Depending on the level of sophistication of an organism, they will be more or less sensitive and awake. The level of wakefulness in the animals which are being killed in the factories is much more so than that of an insect. Fact is that it simply may be unnecessary to create so much suffering when we already have developed enough science and technology to live well without the need for eating meat, it’s simply a luxury. The animals that are in the factories may not possess such a sophisticated intellect like us, nor are they capable of something like self-inquiry, reading a book, solving algebra, or meditation but as far as their instincts are concerned, their instincts are keenly sharper than ours, in some cases as well as their intuition. If animals in the wild are in the middle of a forest and a storm is coming, even days before its arrival, they are able to detect it. If we are put in the middle of a forest, we will not even be able to tell whether a storm is coming or even perhaps what time of day it is, unless of course we have lived integrated in nature for some time, then there may be a possibility of awakening such intuition. There are in fact many things which animals are capable of perceiving which we are not because our senses are not as well equipped. Dogs can hear many frequencies which extend well beyond the human ear, in such a way that if any human were capable of the same, he would be declared as having superhuman capabilities but the problem may be that still somewhere in our minds, we believe ourselves to be superior to the other animals just simply because we have a more developed intellect, there is still a certain inner prejudice behind your statements. As far as pain, fear, and physical suffering are concerned, these are not things which require tremendous intelligence, they happen at a gut-level. The kind of physical suffering that we experience, which is basically animal nature, and the kind of physical suffering that the animals experience are not different. Man himself has evolved out of the other animals, and his ancient instincts are basically inherited from them. Yes, in other ways he is more awake and sensitive, but his instinct for survival is basically out of his animal nature. If we really do not see them as separate, then whether we torture an animal or a human being, you are torturing each other, it makes no difference. There is another dimension that is involved, because even if we insist that it is different, it still does not remove the fact that just by being violent towards others, we are strengthening the tendency of the mind to be violent. Whether we are violent to a worm, a plant, or a human being, violence is violence. The object of violence does not matter. In the first place, it is impossible to be violent towards others unless you are first violent with yourself, just as it is impossible to love others unless you first love yourself and if we have a violent mind then it will seek many ways to express itself, not just one. Its ways of expression will be almost inexhaustible. Yet I occasionally eat meat while this chatter goes through my head, spiritual dissonance.

I didn't mean to say anything about how we should behave toward animals, nor did i mean to imply some sort of superiority. As I see it, humans are virtually the only species that suffers, so I don't see any good reason to be proud of that or feel superior in our suffering. If anything, it might call for a little humility. If we pay attention, we can learn some critical lessons from the animals.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If we pay attention, we can learn some critical lessons from the animals.

I learned more from my dog of thirteen years, than I did from any human in that span of time.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I learned more from my dog of thirteen years, than I did from any human in that span of time.

They tell it like it is.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Does it have anything to do with the nature of suffering?

Sure. A person can be born more sensitive to suffering or less sensitive. It depends on the strength of the certain planets in the individual's horoscope, and on the angular relations between the planets. That is the magnetic fields of the planets may resonate or not resonate. We are always connected with those magnetic fields, they are the flows of energy which take us in this or that direction in our life, and predetermine our abilities to have stronger or less strong sensations, - hence the degree of suffering, - and predetermine our abilities to deal with it. One person can be weak because they do not have strong ability to cope with suffering which they feel as an intense one, the other can be strong when dealing with the same degree of suffering just because they don't have strong sensations about it, and there can be a person who has both strong sensations and strong abilities to cope with suffering, etc. If you ask: can one develop stronger abilities? - yes, IF the flows of energy they were born with help them develop in this direction. That is to say we may have to take additional efforts AGAINST those magnetic fields that influence us, and we may spend much energy for that with a bad result, and go on suffering, and feel this suffering as a very intense one, - or vice versa, the magnetic fields will resonate, and this will make us stronger in our attitude to suffering, - WITHOUT great efforts.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I didn't say it wasn't connected to 'reality'. I'm saying the suffering happens in what we THINK about 'reality'.



The subtext in your process here is to empower yourself while avoiding any risk of empowering me as a cause, and to experience love and compassion without accidentally attributing any of that to me. It IS true that I'm not the cause or the solution, and as such it doesn't serve you to demonize others as part of your process. You are not only the solution, but also the cause of all your problems here. They literally don't exist until you imagine them and go to war with them.

BTW, you would never "fight" with me in a real one on one encounter, because I would not tolerate the intrusion. One difference between you and I is that self love actually IS happening here.

This has gone belly up rather quickly

It appears from your post that you are very black and white, rigid, cut and dried, your way or the highway, however you would want to put it. Your mind is made up and that's that! Others who disagree with you perceive this too but I've only just seen it. It doesn't matter to you how you are perceived but it matters to me.

Suffering is far more complex than your views allow and is an integral part of our life as shown in the following article :

Suffering, or pain in a broad sense,[1] is an individual's basic affective experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with harm or threat of harm. Suffering may be qualified as physical[2] or mental.[3] It may come in all degrees of intensity, from mild to intolerable. Factors of duration and frequency of occurrence usually compound that of intensity. Attitudes toward suffering may vary widely, in the sufferer or other people, according to how much it is regarded as avoidable or unavoidable, useful or useless, deserved or undeserved.
Suffering occurs in the lives of sentient beings in numerous manners, and often dramatically. As a result, many fields of human activity are concerned, from their own points of view, with some aspects of suffering. These aspects may include the nature of suffering, its processes, its origin and causes, its meaning and significance, its related personal, social, and cultural behaviors, its remedies, management, and uses.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

When a kiss (sensation) becomes suffering, it's an indicator that it may be time to put the dictionary down and back away slowly.

Depends on how to see it. Just being alive may mean suffering. This is what the Buddha taught about. It's an extreme, but we are conceptualizing here. For some people even being tourtured feels like nothing. Though a special training is required.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

So maybe snails DO spend a lot of time contemplating their fate? Maybe we need to think about that some more? Is this disagreement for the sake of disagreement?

If in the state of connection with God/Source/ the Universe we feel that we are everything, and we actually are, then we are the sun, the stone, the plant, the animal, the human, you , him, her, both contemplating and full of joy, etc., etc., doesn't matter what, - but being a snail? - never. A snail contemplating their fate? Oh my Goodness! Never. No disagreement.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Angela

Even more serious pain -- like getting scalded by boiling water and coffee.

A great ability! But it mostly requires a special training. Not everybody can have the same result.

[Frisky]

People who have successfully employed Law of Attraction into their lives have also eliminated and permanently ended all their suffering.

Its as simple as that

[Irisha]

Yes, those who have SUCCESSFULLY done it.
Was it so simple?

[Frisky]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Yes, who have SUCCESSFULLY done it.
Was it so simple?

I admit the beginning stages of LOA are not exactly easy. But after you get the hang of it it becomes fairly simple

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

This has gone belly up rather quickly

It appears from your post that you are very black and white, rigid, cut and dried, your way or the highway, however you would want to put it. Your mind is made up and that's that! Others who disagree with you perceive this too but I've only just seen it. It doesn't matter to you how you are perceived but it matters to me.

Suffering is far more complex than your views allow and is an integral part of our life as shown in the following article :

I don't have an issue with the article, but it doesn't really say anything or imply that it's complex.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Frisky

People who have successfully employed Law of Attraction into their lives have also eliminated and permanently ended all their suffering.

Its as simple as that

If you could have everything you wanted (you can't) you would still be unhappy.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If you could have everything you wanted (you can't) you would still be unhappy.

Employing the Law of Attraction isn't about getting things.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Employing the Law of Attraction isn't about getting things.

I didn't say it was.
(Though I would say it certainly includes that.)

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Employing the Law of Attraction isn't about getting things.

I'm wont to inquire what it IS about, then?

Can you sum it up in a sentence?

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I'm wont to inquire what it IS about, then?

Can you sum it up in a sentence?

Training your mind to focus on creating dynamics that can only bring positive outcomes.

There's your one sentence. Getting things is only a part of the lesson of the LoA.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I don't have an issue with the article, but it doesn't really say anything or imply that it's complex.

It doesn't ?

Suffering, or pain in a broad sense,[1] is an individual's basic affective experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with harm or threat of harm. Suffering may be qualified as physical[2] or mental.[3] It may come in all degrees of intensity, from mild to intolerable. Factors of duration and frequency of occurrence usually compound that of intensity. Attitudes toward suffering may vary widely, in the sufferer or other people, according to how much it is regarded as avoidable or unavoidable, useful or useless, deserved or undeserved.
Suffering occurs in the lives of sentient beings in numerous manners, and often dramatically. As a result, many fields of human activity are concerned, from their own points of view, with some aspects of suffering. These aspects may include the nature of suffering, its processes, its origin and causes, its meaning and significance, its related personal, social, and cultural behaviors, its remedies, management, and uses.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Training your mind to focus on creating dynamics that can only bring positive outcomes.

Thank you.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Thank you.

The Law of Attraction is beneath the Duality. Meaning it won't carry you through to enlightenment. But it can get you to a place of inner peace where you can devote the time and energy to pushing yourself there.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

It doesn't ?

No, it doesn't. It reads as very generic and wordy. We could substitute lots of words for 'suffering' and it would read pretty much the same. Lets use 'anger' instead.

Anger, or pain in a broad sense,[1] is an individual's basic affective experience of unpleasantness and aversion associated with harm or threat of harm. Anger may be qualified as physical[2] or mental.[3] It may come in all degrees of intensity, from mild to intolerable. Factors of duration and frequency of occurrence usually compound that of intensity. Attitudes toward anger may vary widely, in the angry one or other people, according to how much it is regarded as avoidable or unavoidable, useful or useless, deserved or undeserved.
Anger occurs in the lives of sentient beings in numerous manners, and often dramatically. As a result, many fields of human activity are concerned, from their own points of view, with some aspects of anger. These aspects may include the nature of anger, its processes, its origin and causes, its meaning and significance, its related personal, social, and cultural behaviors, its remedies, management, and uses.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Training your mind to focus on creating dynamics that can only bring positive outcomes.

There's your one sentence. Getting things is only a part of the lesson of the LoA.

I wanted to ask about Loa and dualism today but wasn't sure where to post, so great that my question got answered. However, am just very unsure about it all, I mean I know people who have a couple of bad things going on in their lives that I'd be convinced attracted it. Then others who are the most positive and yet...
Anyway probably not for discussion on this thread (which I can not keep up with) but wouldn't mind anyone messaging me with further info/reading on this topic (mainly how Loa fits into non-dualism, if indeed it does?) as it's something I'm struggling with.

[Frisky]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If you could have everything you wanted (you can't) you would still be unhappy.

LOA isnt just about "things" though (although its part of it). LOA is more about happiness, good health, finding soulmates and yes, to some extent material goods
as well

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Irisha

A great ability! But it mostly requires a special training. Not everybody can have the same result.

Anyone can learn how to do this. Many people teach themselves how to do it.

But not everyone is willing to do it. Some people deeply believe that the pain is in charge, and they are living at the effect of it, with no choice in the matter. Unsurprisingly, those people feel lots of extended suffering, like being angry or hurt for years or even decades after an event that angered or hurt them.

[inri]

Originally Posted by Frisky

LOA isnt just about "things" though (although its part of it). LOA is more about happiness, good health, finding soulmates and yes, to some extent material goods
as well

well said. I also see the best LOA teachings (The Abraham -Hicks, Neville Goddard, Seth teachings come to mind) as being about; acceptance, non attachment, objective assessment of reality....seeing how things are only good or bad because we deem them to be, connection to Source...ultimately recognizing that there is nothing we require 'out there' in order to know joy and peace...that the 'outer' reality is always a reflection of the 'inner' reality.