The nature of Suffering

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Minor pain was talked about as part of a suggested experiment to explore the nature of suffering. Partly, it was mentioned to avoid the distraction of 'But what about having your arm ripped off and beaten with it?' All suffering is happening in your mind. You are not your mind. There are no exceptions.

Notice how strong the need is to hold suffering in place. If it's not 'Yeah, but what about sadistic torture?' it's 'Yeah, but anybody should be able to deal with an ingrown toenail'.

so then pain != suffering (?)

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yeah. The funny part is I always sort of knew I was on the wheel but somehow kept denying it or rationalizing it was necessary. Kind of in line as Maguru has described.

Mind is a funny thang. I've seen it many times, but I'm still fascinated with the resistance to the idea that suffering has an answer. Our whole lives are dedicated to finding a solution to suffering, but we want the problem and the solution to be 'out there', or we want to engage in an endless process of personal growth and evolution. How many peeps actually want Peace NOW?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Astrology is one of the oldest among the ancient sciences. Very interesting, and true. It has nothing to do with those everyday horoscopes they publish in newspapers.

Does it have anything to do with the nature of suffering?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Mind is a funny thang. I've seen it many times, but I'm still fascinated with the resistance to the idea that suffering has an answer. Our whole lives are dedicated to finding a solution to suffering, but we want the problem and the solution to be 'out there', or we want to engage in an endless process of personal growth and evolution. How many peeps actually want Peace NOW?

suffering is as suffering does

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

lol, with spit flying

Prethhithhely

[raykilleen]

Ones true inner nature is eternal bliss; suffering arises in the mind:
1.) Ignorance:
a. Egoity
b. Attachment
c. Aversion
d. Clinging to life
Misery of the mind is caused by ignorance; egoity, attachment, aversion and clinging to life are effects, all suffering is simply a delusion. Egoity ignorance is when one believes they are the instrument (body, senses, mind) and not the absolute seer. Ignorance of attachment is when the mind dwells on pleasure. Ignorance of aversion is that which dwells on pain. Ignorance clinging to life is manifested in the desire for future life.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Non-attachment is a good thingy, right?

An illusive thingy, yes?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

If it was only occurring in the mind and not connected to reality, it would be easy. The truth will out.

I didn't say it wasn't connected to 'reality'. I'm saying the suffering happens in what we THINK about 'reality'.

I'm sorry if I misled you but I see this on two levels. On the surface how I feel about our disagreements and negative comments has not changed, but on a deeper level many things have changed and in addition there is such wonder and love. This is my experience and its what I've attempted to show. I don't believe this has been your experience because you haven't changed and do not see what I see.

If we were in a real life physical experience, I would have to fight you or walk away, simply because perceptions precede and influence action. They do here, but again this is the safest place to be to confront our differences without killing each other. Here we only get banned.

The subtext in your process here is to empower yourself while avoiding any risk of empowering me as a cause, and to experience love and compassion without accidentally attributing any of that to me. It IS true that I'm not the cause or the solution, and as such it doesn't serve you to demonize others as part of your process. You are not only the solution, but also the cause of all your problems here. They literally don't exist until you imagine them and go to war with them.

BTW, you would never "fight" with me in a real one on one encounter, because I would not tolerate the intrusion. One difference between you and I is that self love actually IS happening here.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

pain   [peyn] Show IPA
noun
1.
physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2.
a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain.
3.
mental or emotional suffering or torment: I am sorry my news causes you such pain.

According to the definition from the dictionary (thank you,
Bodi) there is no difference in meaning. Pain is suffering or sensation.

So, you have your own definition of suffering. What is it?

When a kiss (sensation) becomes suffering, it's an indicator that it may be time to put the dictionary down and back away slowly.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Beingist

This raises a very valid point--is mourning suffering, at least in the non-dualist context of suffering?

Could mourning be the release of attachment? 'Cause, you know, even Jesus wept when he learned of Lazarus' death.

Just wanted to ask this again, in case anyone who might have an idea missed it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

How about to be careful? are you sure it is not a blanket statement about self awareness of snails? What if the degree of self awareness is still of some importance even in this case? ( not to mention in case of babies ). Again it depends on the definitions which you like so much in SOME cases, but not in all...

So maybe snails DO spend a lot of time contemplating their fate? Maybe we need to think about that some more? Is this disagreement for the sake of disagreement?

[supertom]

My favorite quote on suffering is "Suffering is not good for the soul unless it teaches you how to not suffer. That is its purpose.” by Seth.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Indeed no-one enjoys suffering, yet 'insane' to say I want suffering? Please.

Suffering is subjective. It means 'something I don't want to feel'. To say I want to feel what I don't want to feel, is indeed insanity.

Now, I'll share this with you - around 13 or 14 years ago after a great many years of deep pain, anguish and turmoil regarding my personal life as it progressively crumbled into ruins, I intentionally - yes intentionally ASKED for ALL the suffering, indeed in the hottest fires of refinement required in order to bring me to wholeness. Did I desire it? No! Did I choose, want it? Most certainly!

If that's insane to you, so be it.

You were already suffering. To face that suffering head on as a means of escaping, is a good plan, but it IS an escape plan.

In any case, your original statement; "Since almost everybody, regardless of belief, is trying to escape suffering", clearly being your expectation, yet I'm personally aware of a few folk who embrace their suffering as fully and courageously as possible. This isn't to suggest they enjoy it any more than myself or anyone else, yet they've said such to me; "It is when I'm suffering, I'm most aware of being alive." To you this may well be insane, yet I consider it one of the more profound, resolute, enlightened statements I've ever heard uttered of sanity and clarity.

And this is perhaps the key to understanding why peeps struggle so much against the idea that suffering can end, as nearly everyone is doing in this thread. We've come to feel that suffering makes us feel alive, and so we cling to it. This is, in fact, insanity, and insanity is the default condition of humanity, making it the norm and therefore seem acceptable.

Is that yet another instance of abrogation? The essence of the question was - what do you mean by your 'mind identification', or if you prefer; an absence thereof? How do we identify such condition in self or others?

Believing that what I am is a mind/body.

Looking again at your OP, you state; "If, in fact, this is true, that suffering is not happening 'out there' but rather 'in here', then clearly there is the potential for that suffering to end.", which would suggest that suffering is through our choices (including a reticence to make choice), and therefore by inference not required. Yet you also state; "If there is no suffering, there's no perceived need for evolution or growth." So I'm wondering how these two statements, are not in contradiction with each other?

I don't know where you find a contradiction.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

This is why some people become vegetarian, to limit suffering, basing it on level of consciousness i.e. plants having a lower level of consciousness then warm blooded animials.

Does this mean the higher the level of consciousness, the more suffering? If so, maybe we need to rethink our attempts to raise our level of consciousness.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Just wanted to ask this again, in case anyone who might have an idea missed it.

Mourning is a natural process that also simply happens. It is actually a process of healing unless someone twists it into 'this shouldn't be' or some variation. In the case of elephants, I seriously doubt this is going on and even the fact that they are indeed mourning is also an assumption. Perhaps they are but what that actually looks like is probably wildly different than human mourning.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Angela

Even more serious pain -- like getting scalded by boiling water and coffee.

Good stuff. Although it's a bit beyond the exploration of the nature of suffering, it's true that the boundary between mind and body is illusory. Both are occurring IN consciousness.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

do they worry if they are going to lose their job?

The snails do. They're always afraid of being late.

[raykilleen]

My good friend, running buddy and faithful companion always had an enthusiastic energy for life, his sense of smell, hearing and sight were extraordinary and often proved beneficial not only for him but me as well but he’s old now, 14, Spunky has aches and pains, limps, no longer runs, lost his hearing, sores that no longer heal, eyes have become cloudy yet when I observe him no suffering is detected. Spunks not as enthusiastic but seems content, sleeps more but still looks forward to interacting joyfully. Realizing the day may come when he may be in a constant state of suffering I feel I should prepare myself. Can killing be out of compassion for suffering? When an animal or a human being is suffering slowly and death is certain is killing them in a single moment far more compassionate than leaving them to die slowly in an agonizing torture.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Mourning is a natural process that also simply happens. It is actually a process of healing unless someone twists it into 'this shouldn't be' or some variation. In the case of elephants, I seriously doubt this is going on and even the fact that they are indeed mourning is also an assumption. Perhaps they are but what that actually looks like is probably wildly different than human mourning.

I can understand how mourning is healing, and not suffering, but healing from what injury? Is it self-inflicted? Is it spiritual?

Is this the topic of another thread entirely?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

And this is perhaps the key to understanding why peeps struggle so much against the idea that suffering can end, as nearly everyone is doing in this thread. We've come to feel that suffering makes us feel alive, and so we cling to it. This is, in fact, insanity, and insanity is the default condition of humanity, making it the norm and therefore seem acceptable.

Yeah, this is really the heart of the issue as far as I can see.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

so then pain != suffering (?)

Pain is sensation. Sensation does not equal suffering. If one chooses to call a particular sensation 'pain' it might be because he is suffering from the sensation, so whether or not pain=suffering is subjective.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Ones true inner nature is eternal bliss; suffering arises in the mind:
1.) Ignorance:
a. Egoity
b. Attachment
c. Aversion
d. Clinging to life
Misery of the mind is caused by ignorance; egoity, attachment, aversion and clinging to life are effects, all suffering is simply a delusion. Egoity ignorance is when one believes they are the instrument (body, senses, mind) and not the absolute seer. Ignorance of attachment is when the mind dwells on pleasure. Ignorance of aversion is that which dwells on pain. Ignorance clinging to life is manifested in the desire for future life.

Zacklee.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I can understand how mourning is healing, and not suffering, but healing from what injury? Is it self-inflicted? Is it spiritual?

Is this the topic of another thread entirely?

I wouldn't say it's injury. I think it's just the allowing of the sadness. Sitting with it and letting it be fully. Even to fully recognize that separation is illusion doesn't make losing loved ones easy. The process of mourning is as natural as a good hearty laugh.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Just wanted to ask this again, in case anyone who might have an idea missed it.

Feeling is not suffering, so we can't observe a feeling expressed and know whether or not there is suffering. As for grief specifically, in one sense it is a movement of energy, and if allowed to move freely, it would be difficult to call suffering. The power of grief touches us at our core as a face to face encounter with impermanence and our own mortality. It can move us beyond our safe boundaries and there will likely be no regret in the journey.

We can call it suffering if we choose, just as we may very well call the loss of our first love suffering, and yet if we are honest and clear, there was probably a bittersweetness that has the taste of Grace, something bigger than we have allowed ourselves to be, and we would not allow anyone to rob us of that until we had savored the essence of it.

[Angela]

I can understand how mourning is healing, and not suffering, but healing from what injury? Is it self-inflicted? Is it spiritual?

Healing from the the appearance of separation and loss.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

My good friend, running buddy and faithful companion always had an enthusiastic energy for life, his sense of smell, hearing and sight were extraordinary and often proved beneficial not only for him but me as well but he’s old now, 14, Spunky has aches and pains, limps, no longer runs, lost his hearing, sores that no longer heal, eyes have become cloudy yet when I observe him no suffering is detected. Spunks not as enthusiastic but seems content, sleeps more but still looks forward to interacting joyfully. Realizing the day may come when he may be in a constant state of suffering I feel I should prepare myself. Can killing be out of compassion for suffering? When an animal or a human being is suffering slowly and death is certain is killing them in a single moment far more compassionate than leaving them to die slowly in an agonizing torture.

Nice.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I can understand how mourning is healing, and not suffering, but healing from what injury? Is it self-inflicted? Is it spiritual?

Is this the topic of another thread entirely?

When you have spent a wonderful day with a friend, and that day has ended, there may be a hint of sadness. We need not make life into a problem to be solved.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Does this mean the higher the level of consciousness, the more suffering? If so, maybe we need to rethink our attempts to raise our level of consciousness.

Ok, rethinking…considering states of consciousness; level, potential, capacity, expansion, in tune. Once one's consciousness is in tune with existence, then compassion becomes a very natural state therefore murder is needed for survival, if it moves eat it!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

When you have spent a wonderful day with a friend, and that day has ended, there may be a hint of sadness. We need not make life into a problem to be solved.

Yes, I think there is that aspect of sadness to saying goodbye to someone you've had a great time with, and there's also the other thing people do with grief, the suffery part -- where the sadness is protected and nurtured as a resource.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yeah, this is really the heart of the issue as far as I can see.

And so to jump ahead a bit, maybe there is a solution to this dilemma. Folks can keep their depth of feeling but lose the suffering that seems to supply that depth. In our stillness there is a vertical movement that is stronger and deeper than any horizontal movement, and yet it is devoid of suffering because it is a submerging into the heart of being. The intensity of unconditional Love and the Peace that passes all understanding are examples of such, and yet they also don't deny the shattering depths of grief or heartbreaking compassion.