The nature of Suffering

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Life isn't inherently about torturing yourself repeatedly to come into the light and find momentary relief again and again. It can be if you believe that is necessary but it doesn't have to be.

The growth and evolution is kinda exciting though, and the pleasure you feel when you bang your head and then stop for a second is awesome!

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I don't really think the stars were positioned quite the way she thinks they were, do you?.....Maybe....I dunno.

Well, I meant I literally can't argue with that. There were more side topics going on in that paragraph than my brain could deconstruct without shorting out. Although the sadist psychic thing keeps coming up in multiple discussions. I think there's some serious fear about that.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The growth and evolution is kinda exciting though, and the pleasure you feel when you bang your head and then stop for a second is awesome!

Yeah, it's fun until it's not. I think I actually got bored of suffering

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Well, I meant I literally can't argue with that. There were more side topics going on in that paragraph than my brain could deconstruct without shorting out. Although the sadist psychic thing keeps coming up in multiple discussions. I think there's some serious fear about that.

Yeah, I knew what ya meant, but I thought I'd try to argue against the star positioning just to prove I could.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yeah, it's fun until it's not. I think I actually got bored of suffering

I spose when you figure out you're not going anywhere, the excitement wears off. Of course, it helps to recognize the gerbil wheel you're on in the first place.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I don't know what astrology or psychic sadists have to do with what we're talking about. I've taught many people how to mitigate their pain, both physical and emotional, as well as eliminating phobias in the way I've described, and I know what I'm talking about too. Your personal experience is happening in your head, not somewhere else.

OK, it's in my head. But what about MG who is not only in my head, but who is a real person like you and me? MG is a psychic sadist. Unfortunately there are people who enjoy when others feel pain. Unfortunately some of them have psychic abilities , and they can make others feel pain, using their abilities. In this case (and not only in this case , but in case of any strong pains) the method you are speaking about cannot help. OK, you mean only minor pains which can be ceased with your method. Yes, you may be right. I just think that minor pains are the pains which any person can cope with. If they cannot, then, sure, they may need help, and your method is very good.
The title of the discussion is The Nature of Suffering, and I thought any type of pain can be discussed. Now I don't understand why a minor pain/suffering can be discussed, and strong - not. If we speak of the explanation regarding how to cease a pain.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I spose when you figure out you're not going anywhere, the excitement wears off. Of course, it helps to recognize the gerbil wheel you're on in the first place.

Yeah. The funny part is I always sort of knew I was on the wheel but somehow kept denying it or rationalizing it was necessary. Kind of in line as Maguru has described.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Irisha

OK, it's in my head. But what about MG who is not only in my head, but who is a real person like you and me? MG is a psychic sadist. Unfortunately there are people who enjoy when others feel pain. Unfortunately some of them have psychic abilities , and they can make others feel pain, using their abilities. In this case (and not only in this case , but in case of any strong pains) the method you are speaking about cannot help. OK, you mean only minor pains which can be ceased with your method. Yes, you may be right. I just think that minor pains are the pains which any person can cope with. If they cannot, then, sure, they may need help, and your method is very good.
The title of the discussion is The Nature of Suffering, and I thought any type of pain can be discussed. Now I don't understand why a minor pain/suffering can be discussed, and strong - not. If we speak of the explanation regarding how to cease a pain.

Is 'MG' in your head right now?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I don't really think the stars were positioned quite the way she thinks they were, do you?.....Maybe....I dunno.

Astrology is one of the oldest among the ancient sciences. Very interesting, and true. It has nothing to do with those everyday horoscopes they publish in newspapers.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Is 'MG' in your head right now?

Yes, he is. I don't know how he is doing that, how he is able to do that, or (in case it's just an implant, or a cord as some people call it) how it works. If it were just a hypnotic suggestion (made 20 years ago), how is it possible that it was with me every moment (not every hour, but every moment) during those 20 years.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Yes, he is. I don't know how he is doing that, how he is able to do that, or (in case it's just an implant, or a cord as some people call it) how it works. If it were just a hypnotic suggestion (made 20 years ago), how is it possible that it was with me every moment (not every hour, but every moment) during those 20 years.

What is it that's happening in your experience to make you feel as though someone is in your head?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, been saying that repeatedly.
When you are experiencing suffering or happiness, does it matter?
Whether or not we would have a relationship in the real world is beside the point. I'm using what occurs here on the forum as an example of what I'm talking about. I'm saying if you can resolve the struggle within yourself, as you have done repeatedly, then I am not the cause. You agree I am not the cause and that it all happens within you, and then declare my interpretation false. So again you begin the process of struggling within yourself by creating disagreement where there is none.
The point was not whether you would actually consider my example serious enough to call suffering for you. The point was that if you believe something is happening that results in suffering, how can you rationalize it away? You said that you should be able to do this if it were true that it's happening in your mind.

If it was only occurring in the mind and not connected to reality, it would be easy. The truth will out.

I'm sorry if I misled you but I see this on two levels. On the surface how I feel about our disagreements and negative comments has not changed, but on a deeper level many things have changed and in addition there is such wonder and love. This is my experience and its what I've attempted to show. I don't believe this has been your experience because you haven't changed and do not see what I see.

If we were in a real life physical experience, I would have to fight you or walk away, simply because perceptions precede and influence action. They do here, but again this is the safest place to be to confront our differences without killing each other. Here we only get banned.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

What is it that's happening in your experience to make you feel as though someone is in your head?

I know it is very hard to believe in such an experience. I think I would never believe if it had not happened to me. It's much easier to say that a person is crazy and stop paying attention to what they are saying at all. So, I appreciate that you ask.

I don't know how to speak about it if you think such an experience means some psychiatric problem or something. Or if you cannot imagine what it is. What would you say about the voice in somebody's head? He talks to me, we discuss things. It's a verbal and nonverbal communication,- with thoughts, visual imagies, sounds, music, - and not only that. All senses are involved. Touching. He can heal (even the people who I know and he has never seen, but he can do it via me, and it is NOT me who can do it). He can make pains. He punishes me with pains when I do the wrong things (according to him). He can punish me for my thoughts in different ways. He can predict future events,- almost every day! I often know what will happen in an hour, or in a day, a week, etc.
This is not something that is taking place in my head as my own imagination. MG is a real person. He had said to me that I would have such a Channel with him. Then he had made it.
I've written more in my thread in Psychic and Paranormal sub Forum.

I know what you think: She imagined that some MG had really made the Channel, and was really talking to her...
I don't know what it was that he had done. But he had done something if I have been experiencing it for 20 years , hadn't he? It feels like he is really involved, because why would I imagine those pains for myself, for ex.? The pains were very strong, they lasted for six weeks last autumn, WITH days off on every Thursday. What a decease with such a schedule!.. Or maybe it was me creating those pains I don't know how?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I
I think there is a difference in meaning between suffering and sensation. Don't you?

pain   [peyn] Show IPA
noun
1.
physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2.
a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain.
3.
mental or emotional suffering or torment: I am sorry my news causes you such pain.

According to the definition from the dictionary (thank you,
Bodi) there is no difference in meaning. Pain is suffering or sensation.

So, you have your own definition of suffering. What is it?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I don't. That's why I said I want to be careful about making blanket statements about animals and self awareness. However, we're not completely ignorant about the distinction. Snails don't spend a lot of time contemplating their fate.

How about to be careful? are you sure it is not a blanket statement about self awareness of snails? What if the degree of self awareness is still of some importance even in this case? ( not to mention in case of babies ). Again it depends on the definitions which you like so much in SOME cases, but not in all...

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

By definition, suffering is not something anybody wants. If there is no suffering, there's no perceived need for evolution or growth. It's insane to say I want to suffer so that I can make my life better. Escape is the right word.

Indeed no-one enjoys suffering, yet 'insane' to say I want suffering? Please.

Now, I'll share this with you - around 13 or 14 years ago after a great many years of deep pain, anguish and turmoil regarding my personal life as it progressively crumbled into ruins, I intentionally - yes intentionally ASKED for ALL the suffering, indeed in the hottest fires of refinement required in order to bring me to wholeness. Did I desire it? No! Did I choose, want it? Most certainly!

If that's insane to you, so be it.

In any case, your original statement; "Since almost everybody, regardless of belief, is trying to escape suffering", clearly being your expectation, yet I'm personally aware of a few folk who embrace their suffering as fully and courageously as possible. This isn't to suggest they enjoy it any more than myself or anyone else, yet they've said such to me; "It is when I'm suffering, I'm most aware of being alive." To you this may well be insane, yet I consider it one of the more profound, resolute, enlightened statements I've ever heard uttered of sanity and clarity.

I personally derive a great deal more inspiration from such humble mentalities, than from presumption.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The absence of mind identification??

Is that yet another instance of abrogation? The essence of the question was - what do you mean by your 'mind identification', or if you prefer; an absence thereof? How do we identify such condition in self or others?

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Actually, I'm suggesting what I suggested rather than your dramatized version.

I asked the question for clarity, as your suggestion was not particularly well expressed, more than perhaps a little ambiguous in fact. So rather than 'drama', I was seeking some clarification of your terminology. I do hope this is more acceptable to you - now???

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If the projection were devoid of personal identification, this would be fine. However, the projection of the personal self into those scenarios is the cause of the suffering. The appropriate response from moment to moment is actually effortless and spontaneous and doesn't require the scenario analysis that most think it does.

Quite frankly, I've no idea how your third sentence here correlates with the first two.

Secondly, I sincerely doubt it'll ever be possible (until we manage to fully embrace objective reality that is), to divorce self from any projection into future circumstances, and therefore avoid suffering - even if that was appropriate, which is highly doubtful.

Moreover, the issue of suffering is clearly due to our profoundly overriding subjectivity, therefore the solution is again - to fully embrace the objective reality of existence in favour of our default to our subjective interpretation/s of same.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Both approaches involve mind identification and so will be the same subjective approach. The goal will be to end the suffering ASAP. It is already seen as 'wrong for me' or there wouldn't be suffering. There's no such thing as an objective perspective.

Perhaps, yet there most certainly is an objective reality - for this is in fact our very existence, and we'd do well to recognise and embrace it as fully as possible.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Lots of things may be required. I doubt that the discussion will get that far. we'll spend the next couple weeks discussing why we have to keep our suffering.

Looking again at your OP, you state; "If, in fact, this is true, that suffering is not happening 'out there' but rather 'in here', then clearly there is the potential for that suffering to end.", which would suggest that suffering is through our choices (including a reticence to make choice), and therefore by inference not required. Yet you also state; "If there is no suffering, there's no perceived need for evolution or growth." So I'm wondering how these two statements, are not in contradiction with each other?

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Sure, animals SUFFER. All that are ALIVE - SUFFER. Doesn't matter how to call it.

This is why some people become vegetarian, to limit suffering, basing it on level of consciousness i.e. plants having a lower level of consciousness then warm blooded animials.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I don't know what astrology or psychic sadists have to do with what we're talking about. I've taught many people how to mitigate their pain, both physical and emotional, as well as eliminating phobias in the way I've described, and I know what I'm talking about too. Your personal experience is happening in your head, not somewhere else.

The tantra’s have developed many techniques towards a deeper understanding of this as well.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

This is why some people become vegetarian, to limit suffering, basing it on level of consciousness i.e. plants having a lower level of consciousness then warm blooded animials.

And cold-blooded fish!

But seriously, in my own life, while I've always loved salads, I've become really turned off by red meat in particular, not because of any conviction, but because of my sensitivity to animal products. My salad intake has doubled and I feel the best when I eat vegetables. Fruits are good but not as the main staple because of the sugars that affect me.

I'm watching that evolution in me and foresee a day when probably the only animal products will be eggs and cheese.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

And cold-blooded fish!

But seriously, in my own life, while I've always loved salads, I've become really turned off by red meat in particular, not because of any conviction, but because of my sensitivity to animal products. My salad intake has doubled and I feel the best when I eat vegetables. Fruits are good but not as the main staple because of the sugars that affect me.

I'm watching that evolution in me and foresee a day when probably the only animal products will be eggs and cheese.

And this is another reason people modify their diet, heath through trial and error.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

And this is another reason people modify their diet, heath through trial and error.

Yup, we are not our bodies so we have to guess at what works and what doesn't. To some degree our bodies tell us...swallow spoiled food and we throw up, e.g.

But too much of diet is not obvious and we find out often too late as we can't see clogging arteries develop specifically from taking a bite of something.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I said "minor pain", didn't I?
It doesn't require superpowers, just some experimenting. Try it.
Folks generally get very protective of their pain, both physical and emotional. Instead of defending your right to suffer, why not check and see if it's necessary?

Even more serious pain -- like getting scalded by boiling water and coffee.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Sure, animals SUFFER. All that are ALIVE - SUFFER. Doesn't matter how to call it.

do they worry if they are going to lose their job?

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Are you kidding wolfgang? Have you never heard of or watched on a doco, about how a dog will sit on his owner's grave for months, refusing to be moved even for food? What about how elephants will, as a community gather and mourn together for many hours over one of their number dying.

Maybe you'll be interested in this case in India, where an elephant turned carnivore, eating it's human kills through stress and sorrow after her calf was killed?

I see. I always think of animals as being wiser and not as apt to get stuck in worrying and stress. But I see what you mean.

[wolfgang]

suffering succotash

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Are you kidding wolfgang? Have you never heard of or watched on a doco, about how a dog will sit on his owner's grave for months, refusing to be moved even for food? What about how elephants will, as a community gather and mourn together for many hours over one of their number dying.

Maybe you'll be interested in this case in India, where an elephant turned carnivore, eating it's human kills through stress and sorrow after her calf was killed?

This raises a very valid point--is mourning suffering, at least in the non-dualist context of suffering?

Could mourning be the release of attachment? 'Cause, you know, even Jesus wept when he learned of Lazarus' death.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

suffering succotash

Actually, that's ...

Thuffering Thuccotath

[wolfgang]

Viktor Frankl

"The salvation of man is through love and in love. I understood how a man who has nothing left in this world still may know bliss, be it only for a brief moment, in the contemplation of his beloved. In a position of utter desolation, when man cannot express himself in positive action, when his only achievement may consist in enduring his sufferings in the right way—an honorable way—in such a position man can, through loving contemplation of the image he carries of his beloved, achieve fulfillment. For the first time in my life I was able to understand the meaning of the words, "The angels are lost in perpetual contemplation of an infinite glory...."

"If a prisoner felt that he could no longer endure the realities of camp life, he found a way out in his mental life– an invaluable opportunity to dwell in the spiritual domain, the one that the SS were unable to destroy. Spiritual life strengthened the prisoner, helped him adapt, and thereby improved his chances of survival."

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Actually, that's ...

Thuffering Thuccotath

lol, with spit flying

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

OK, it's in my head. But what about MG who is not only in my head, but who is a real person like you and me? MG is a psychic sadist. Unfortunately there are people who enjoy when others feel pain. Unfortunately some of them have psychic abilities , and they can make others feel pain, using their abilities. In this case (and not only in this case , but in case of any strong pains) the method you are speaking about cannot help. OK, you mean only minor pains which can be ceased with your method. Yes, you may be right. I just think that minor pains are the pains which any person can cope with. If they cannot, then, sure, they may need help, and your method is very good.
The title of the discussion is The Nature of Suffering, and I thought any type of pain can be discussed. Now I don't understand why a minor pain/suffering can be discussed, and strong - not. If we speak of the explanation regarding how to cease a pain.

Minor pain was talked about as part of a suggested experiment to explore the nature of suffering. Partly, it was mentioned to avoid the distraction of 'But what about having your arm ripped off and beaten with it?' All suffering is happening in your mind. You are not your mind. There are no exceptions.

Notice how strong the need is to hold suffering in place. If it's not 'Yeah, but what about sadistic torture?' it's 'Yeah, but anybody should be able to deal with an ingrown toenail'.