The nature of Suffering

[Arcanum]

Sensation is not suffering, and though we can certainly imagine levels of pain in which suffering seems unavoidable, most pain can be mitigated to the point of sensation only. Again, the overwhelming majority of physical suffering is happening in the mind. This can be tested in your own experience,though the results will be limited by mind/body identification.

The next time you have a minor pain, stop thinking about how it shouldn't have happened and who's to blame and how long it's going to hurt. Stop all thinking about the event, and stop all resistance to feeling the pain and allow it completely. To the degree that you can do this, the pain will ease or cease, or simply become a body sensation only.

It would be simpler to take an aspirin, but the experience will reveal where the suffering is actually happening.

[wolfgang]

perhaps suffering=stress

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

perhaps suffering=stress

Perhaps that's a tautology?

[RonSouther]

The bondage to the body is suffering. The daily grind required to keep the body and mind safe, fed, healthy, etc..., is suffering.

My free spirit isn't free as an embodied soul.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Since almost everybody, regardless of belief, is trying to escape suffering, maybe it's useful to specifically explore the nature of it and why it happens and whether it must happen.

Mind is complex, and so in the same way that it creates suffering, it also sometimes tries to deny it's own suffering in the attempt to solve the problem, but the goal is not to try to convince mind identified individuals that they are suffering while they're saying they are not, so this is for folks that acknowledge their own suffering.

That would include me.

The nature of mind is to test such ideas by imagining the worst case scenario and checking to see if it still holds true, but as long as the opposing view is held, this extreme scenario is just going to make the view appear to be extremely true. This is the same process of projection that leads to resistance to begin with, and so the suggestion is to avoid those extreme views.

Fundamentally, suffering is not caused by events, but rather our interpretation of events. Specifically, the resistance created by projecting the personal 'me' into what is or isn't occurring, and concluding that it should not be what it is.

If, in fact, this is true, that suffering is not happening 'out there' but rather 'in here', then clearly there is the potential for that suffering to end.

I would agree that the suffering is 'in here' but because of, and not despite 'out there'. Realistically, if nothing happened 'out there', then nothing would happen 'in here'. Do we ignore the cause?

If suffering was only of the mind, we could easily rationalize it and end the suffering and I know this does work sometimes. However, I believe suffering is much more than that. It's part of who you are as A.R. pointed out. When it's not the breaking of us, it's the making of us.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I would agree that the suffering is 'in here' but because of, and not despite 'out there'. Realistically, if nothing happened 'out there', then nothing would happen 'in here'. Do we ignore the cause?

'Out there' is not the cause of suffering, nor is it the cause of happiness. How 'out there' is interpreted is how suffering/happiness occurs. You've seen this enough times right here on this forum in conversation with me that I would think you would understand this. Have I ever been the cause of suffering or happiness for you?

If suffering was only of the mind, we could easily rationalize it and end the suffering and I know this does work sometimes.

If you believe you are being stalked by a hit man (assuming you're not), how do you 'easily rationalize that and end the suffering'?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

If suffering was only of the mind, we could easily rationalize it and end the suffering and I know this does work sometimes. However, I believe suffering is much more than that. It's part of who you are as A.R. pointed out. When it's not the breaking of us, it's the making of us.

Rationalizing is also of the mind. It seems to work sometimes or else you would simply stop buying into the circular nature of it all. Suffering is the proverbial believing the light is just at the end of the tunnel and if you stay with the minds rationalizations, everything will be fine real soon.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Sensation is not suffering, and though we can certainly imagine levels of pain in which suffering seems unavoidable, most pain can be mitigated to the point of sensation only. Again, the overwhelming majority of physical suffering is happening in the mind. This can be tested in your own experience,though the results will be limited by mind/body identification.

The next time you have a minor pain, stop thinking about how it shouldn't have happened and who's to blame and how long it's going to hurt. Stop all thinking about the event, and stop all resistance to feeling the pain and allow it completely. To the degree that you can do this, the pain will ease or cease, or simply become a body sensation only.

It would be simpler to take an aspirin, but the experience will reveal where the suffering is actually happening.

Right. All bodies experience pain during their life to varying degrees. Some bodies actually grow to enjoy pain in certain contexts and some even go about displaying tremendous tolerances to pain. It is not that physical pain=suffering. It is rather that the awareness of the pain and the judgments, resistance,identification and suffering with the pain all seems to be one instantaneous process for most people. If they were to let go of the thought that physical pain obviously constitutes suffering they may actually notice what is really happening with the mental aspects which create an experience of both pain and suffering.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

'Out there' is not the cause of suffering, nor is it the cause of happiness. How 'out there' is interpreted is how suffering/happiness occurs.

So you are saying that it is our interpretations that cause suffering or happiness to occur. Do they actually occur? Or is nothing really happening?

You've seen this enough times right here on this forum in conversation with me that I would think you would understand this.

Arcanum, that is just your interpretations of what happens in our discussions.

Have I ever been the cause of suffering or happiness for you?

Neither, my friend. It was all mine. However, if we were 'out there' in the physical world, I doubt we would have a relationship at all.

If you believe you are being stalked by a hit man (assuming you're not), how do you 'easily rationalize that and end the suffering'?

Is that suffering? I would think that is paranoia and eventually it would be proved as false. What if I am truly being stalked by a hit man? Worst case scenario is I'm going to die. Oh well, I will eventually so need to worry. hehehehehe

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Perhaps that's a tautology?

perhaps. but in context of this thread, it seems suffering is being looked at as a mental anguish type of suffering. or added stress.

and then there are some replies about physical pain being suffering. which I isn't mental stress directly. I guess you could say it's stress for the nerves and pain.

I often think of animals that if they have physical pain they suffer, but they don't seem to add layers of mental anguish. but who knows? maybe they stress out too. heck, the vet had anti depression pill pamphlets in the office!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Rationalizing is also of the mind. It seems to work sometimes or else you would simply stop buying into the circular nature of it all. Suffering is the proverbial believing the light is just at the end of the tunnel and if you stay with the minds rationalizations, everything will be fine real soon.

Did you experience personal suffering through believing the light is at the end of the tunnel? Haven't many come though this tunnel into the light? I have. That isn't to say there aren't more tunnels. It's life!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

So you are saying that it is our interpretations that cause suffering or happiness to occur.

Yes, been saying that repeatedly.

Do they actually occur? Or is nothing really happening?

When you are experiencing suffering or happiness, does it matter?

Arcanum, that is just your interpretations of what happens in our discussions. Neither, my friend. It was all mine. However, if we were 'out there' in the physical world, I doubt we would have a relationship at all.

Whether or not we would have a relationship in the real world is beside the point. I'm using what occurs here on the forum as an example of what I'm talking about. I'm saying if you can resolve the struggle within yourself, as you have done repeatedly, then I am not the cause. You agree I am not the cause and that it all happens within you, and then declare my interpretation false. So again you begin the process of struggling within yourself by creating disagreement where there is none.

Is that suffering? I would think that is paranoia and eventually it would be proved as false. What if I am truly being stalked by a hit man? Worst case scenario is I'm going to die. Oh well, I will eventually so need to worry. hehehehehe

The point was not whether you would actually consider my example serious enough to call suffering for you. The point was that if you believe something is happening that results in suffering, how can you rationalize it away? You said that you should be able to do this if it were true that it's happening in your mind.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

perhaps. but in context of this thread, it seems suffering is being looked at as a mental anguish type of suffering. or added stress.

and then there are some replies about physical pain being suffering. which I isn't mental stress directly. I guess you could say it's stress for the nerves and pain.

I often think of animals that if they have physical pain they suffer, but they don't seem to add layers of mental anguish. but who knows? maybe they stress out too. heck, the vet had anti depression pill pamphlets in the office!

I'm saying suffering happens in the mind, not in the physical sensations or in the feelings themselves. I don't think it matters if it's called suffering or stress.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I'm saying suffering happens in the mind, not in the physical sensations or in the feelings themselves. I don't think it matters if it's called suffering or stress.

You said somewhere in another thread that animals do not suffer. Then why is any animal shouting of pain when the pain is strong enough?
According to you physical pain is not suffering. Then what is it? Just a sensation? Does it matter how to call it?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I often think of animals that if they have physical pain they suffer, but they don't seem to add layers of mental anguish. but who knows? maybe they stress out too. heck, the vet had anti depression pill pamphlets in the office!

Sure, animals SUFFER. All that are ALIVE - SUFFER. Doesn't matter how to call it.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I often think of animals that if they have physical pain they suffer, but they don't seem to add layers of mental anguish. but who knows? maybe they stress out too. heck, the vet had anti depression pill pamphlets in the office!

Are you kidding wolfgang? Have you never heard of or watched on a doco, about how a dog will sit on his owner's grave for months, refusing to be moved even for food? What about how elephants will, as a community gather and mourn together for many hours over one of their number dying.

Maybe you'll be interested in this case in India, where an elephant turned carnivore, eating it's human kills through stress and sorrow after her calf was killed?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Sensation is not suffering, and though we can certainly imagine levels of pain in which suffering seems unavoidable, most pain can be mitigated to the point of sensation only. Again, the overwhelming majority of physical suffering is happening in the mind. This can be tested in your own experience,though the results will be limited by mind/body identification.

The next time you have a minor pain, stop thinking about how it shouldn't have happened and who's to blame and how long it's going to hurt. Stop all thinking about the event, and stop all resistance to feeling the pain and allow it completely. To the degree that you can do this, the pain will ease or cease, or simply become a body sensation only.

It would be simpler to take an aspirin, but the experience will reveal where the suffering is actually happening.

My God! Have you ever had a pain? I suppose not, and I wish you never had, and I hope you never will. To be able to stop pain by stopping thinking about the event, and stopping resistance to feeling the pain means to be able to do paranormal things without any training, without the abilities to do paranormal things, and without the permission from God (I hope you understand this properly, not literally) to learn how to do those things. This explanation how to ease or cease pain has nothing to do with reality, because people don't have time to become supermen with superpowers even if they spend their whole life for learning how to do that. Even pain-killing medicines don't help sometimes , to say nothing of our abilities to learn how to help with pain.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

You said somewhere in another thread that animals do not suffer. Then why is any animal shouting of pain when the pain is strong enough?

I'm sure you've noticed in your own case that crying out is a natural reaction. It's part of the movement of the energy of feeling. Watch a group of young girls sometime and notice the almost continuous screaming. Are they suffering? Have you ever screamed when riding a scary ride, or cried when watching a sad movie? Were you suffering?

According to you physical pain is not suffering. Then what is it? Just a sensation?

Yes, I've said this repeatedly.

Does it matter how to call it?

I think there is a difference in meaning between suffering and sensation. Don't you?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Sure, animals SUFFER. All that are ALIVE - SUFFER. Doesn't matter how to call it.

Some animals, other than humans, are self aware in the biological sense, and to varying degrees, so I want to be careful about making blanket statements about animals, but where there is no self awareness, there is no suffering. The squirrel does not suffer. It doesn't have the self awareness required to contemplate it's own fate. Neither does the human infant.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Are you kidding wolfgang? Have you never heard of or watched on a doco, about how a dog will sit on his owner's grave for months, refusing to be moved even for food? What about how elephants will, as a community gather and mourn together for many hours over one of their number dying.

Maybe you'll be interested in this case in India, where an elephant turned carnivore, eating it's human kills through stress and sorrow after her calf was killed?

It has been demonstrated that elephants seem to have self awareness.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

My God! Have you ever had a pain? I suppose not, and I wish you never had. To be able to stop pain by stopping thinking about the event, and stopping resistance to feeling the pain means to be able to do paranormal things without any training, without the abilities to do paranormal things, and without the permission from God (I hope you understand this properly, not literally) to learn how to do those things. This explanation how to ease or cease pain has nothing to do with reality, because people don't have time to become supermen with superpowers even if they spend their whole life for learning how to do that. Even pain-killing medicines don't help sometimes , to say nothing of our abilities to learn how to help with pain.

I said "minor pain", didn't I?
It doesn't require superpowers, just some experimenting. Try it.
Folks generally get very protective of their pain, both physical and emotional. Instead of defending your right to suffer, why not check and see if it's necessary?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I said "minor pain", didn't I?
It doesn't require superpowers, just some experimenting. Try it.
Folks generally get very protective of their pain, both physical and emotional. Instead of defending your right to suffer, why not check and see if it's necessary?

I tried, tried many times. It's simply not true what you are writing about. I don't defend my right to suffer, I don't like to suffer. I actually almost never suffer (if I am by myself, without MG, the psychic sadist who can and know how to tourture people). I (by myself) always feel happy even without any reason. But it's NOT because I've learned how to do it, or because I decided to change myself and successfully did it. There is no merit of mine. It is SIMPLY because I was born with it. THE STARS in the sky were positioned in the way at that moment that I was born with those characteristics. (I studied astrology, I know what I am talking about. And I believe in God's Will).

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Some animals, other than humans, are self aware in the biological sense, and to varying degrees, so I want to be careful about making blanket statements about animals, but where there is no self awareness, there is no suffering. The squirrel does not suffer. It doesn't have the self awareness required to contemplate it's own fate. Neither does the human infant.

HOW do you know who is self aware?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

I'm not so sure 'escape' is the correct word here. Suffering in one way or another, is a most necessary, even highly conducive aspect of our being alive. No-one likes any of it for a second, yet escape from it? That's not only impossible but without it personal evolution would entirely stagnate. ('evolution' in this instance means growth)

By definition, suffering is not something anybody wants. If there is no suffering, there's no perceived need for evolution or growth. It's insane to say I want to suffer so that I can make my life better. Escape is the right word.

So what is the antithesis of a 'mind identified' individual?

The absence of mind identification??

Are you suggesting that 'mind identified' individuals live their entire lives in a complete denial, a virtual catatonia by choice, with regards their pain/suffering?

Actually, I'm suggesting what I suggested rather than your dramatized version.

Are you saying that a 'mind identified' individual avoids suffering by imagining a scenario that looks far worse than his own at that moment, so therefore works/aims to avoid this even 'worse case scenario' through his (next) choice?

No, I was laying the ground for a discussion of the wildly extreme examples of suffering that I knew were going to be offered to refute what I was suggesting. (I've had this discussion many times before)

If so, isn't that what we all do (or should) by projecting into the future the effects/repercussions of our intended actions in order to make choice to enact the more appropriate - whatever that means to us at that moment?

If the projection were devoid of personal identification, this would be fine. However, the projection of the personal self into those scenarios is the cause of the suffering. The appropriate response from moment to moment is actually effortless and spontaneous and doesn't require the scenario analysis that most think it does.

This is according our natural default setting, where our preference of inclination is according the subjective - that is; what is wrong/insufficient/inappropriate and therefore against what is right 'for me', rather than the more objective perspective - perhaps towards what can I learn/how can I benefit from these particulars at hand, in order to grow/evolve as an individual.

Both approaches involve mind identification and so will be the same subjective approach. The goal will be to end the suffering ASAP. It is already seen as 'wrong for me' or there wouldn't be suffering. There's no such thing as an objective perspective.

Relating to the 'in here' suffering, I doubt we could possibly come close to 'ending' it, until and unless we first learn to embrace, indeed be thankful for all the suffering through 'my' life, all of which has been effectually 'my' evolution towards the place where 'I' can entertain the concept of releasing my grip on it, based as it is on pain and (to some extent) anger, as well as an ongoing need for retribution.

Lots of things may be required. I doubt that the discussion will get that far. we'll spend the next couple weeks discussing why we have to keep our suffering.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Irisha

I tried, tried many times. It's simply not true what you are writing about. I don't defend my right to suffer, I don't like to suffer. I actually almost never suffer (if I am by myself, without MG, the psychic sadist who can and know how to tourture people). I (by myself) always feel happy even without any reason. But it's NOT because I've learned how to do it, or because I decided to change myself and successfully did it. There is no merit of mine. It is SIMPLY because I was born with it. THE STARS in the sky were positioned in the way at that moment that I was born with those characteristics. (I studied astrology, I know what I am talking about. And I believe in God's Will).

Can't argue with that.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

I tried, tried many times. It's simply not true what you are writing about. I don't defend my right to suffer, I don't like to suffer. I actually almost never suffer (if I am by myself, without MG, the psychic sadist who can and know how to tourture people). I (by myself) always feel happy even without any reason. But it's NOT because I've learned how to do it, or because I decided to change myself and successfully did it. There is no merit of mine. It is SIMPLY because I was born with it. THE STARS in the sky were positioned in the way at that moment that I was born with those characteristics. (I studied astrology, I know what I am talking about. And I believe in God's Will).

I don't know what astrology or psychic sadists have to do with what we're talking about. I've taught many people how to mitigate their pain, both physical and emotional, as well as eliminating phobias in the way I've described, and I know what I'm talking about too. Your personal experience is happening in your head, not somewhere else.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

There's no such thing as an objective perspective.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

HOW do you know who is self aware?

I don't. That's why I said I want to be careful about making blanket statements about animals and self awareness. However, we're not completely ignorant about the distinction. Snails don't spend a lot of time contemplating their fate.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Did you experience personal suffering through believing the light is at the end of the tunnel? Haven't many come though this tunnel into the light? I have. That isn't to say there aren't more tunnels. It's life!

Life isn't inherently about torturing yourself repeatedly to come into the light and find momentary relief again and again. It can be if you believe that is necessary but it doesn't have to be.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Can't argue with that.

I don't really think the stars were positioned quite the way she thinks they were, do you?.....Maybe....I dunno.