Does God Have a future?

[MariconesUnited]

Another thread has inspired me to go back to a fascinating video. It's a live debate between Deepak Chopra and Sam Harris. There's another person on each side but in my mind they're the most vocal and interesting.

I think it would be a great place to start a conversation on God, science, the nature of belief and all that good stuff. To me, it's also a great video to gauge where I'm standing right now on these issues and how my thoughts have evolved on the matter.

Here is the first part. You can click on each following part afterwards. The whole thing might be a bit long, but man is there some good food for thought in it...and humor, from both sides!

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Another thread has inspired me to go back to a fascinating video. It's a live debate between Deepak Chopra and Sam Harris. There's another person on each side but in my mind they're the most vocal and interesting.

I think it would be a great place to start a conversation on God, science, the nature of belief and all that good stuff. To me, it's also a great video to gauge where I'm standing right now on these issues and how my thoughts have evolved on the matter.

Here is the first part. You can click on each following part afterwards. The whole thing might be a bit long, but man is there some good food for thought in it...and humor, from both sides!

The title reminds me of Nietsche's famous "God is dead" statement. Good luck debating this out.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

The title reminds me of Nietsche's famous "God is dead" statement. Good luck debating this out.

The video itself is full of thoughtful insight. It's a mostly level-headed debate between science and religion. I feel that it's high time we spoke about a lot of the things mentioned in the video.

Before getting into the nitty gritty, meaty stuff, I just wanted to voice my visceral satisfaction at Sam Harris saying ''Repeating something over and over again with more persistence doesn't make it true''. I have no idea how many times I could have used that line in my life, it's very valuable!

[CroMagna]

I'm having problems hearing the video. Would you mind telling the gist of what they said? Is there a transcript?

[siryessir08]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Another thread has inspired me to go back to a fascinating video. It's a live debate between Deepak Chopra and Sam Harris. There's another person on each side but in my mind they're the most vocal and interesting.

I think it would be a great place to start a conversation on God, science, the nature of belief and all that good stuff. To me, it's also a great video to gauge where I'm standing right now on these issues and how my thoughts have evolved on the matter.

Here is the first part. You can click on each following part afterwards. The whole thing might be a bit long, but man is there some good food for thought in it...and humor, from both sides!

I found this very interesting to watch because I've lived with strong beliefs in both viewpoints.

From 18-22 I would be argued Sam's viewpoints to the T. For the last 2 years; however, I would frame myself with Deepak.

Sam had an absolute inability to understand the higher concepts that Deepak was talking about. He believes in science... it is his creed. When one follows science, nothing beyond what can be "objectively" proven can be believed to be true. He was incapable of considering concepts that are beyond the physical.

I was disappointed by Deepak. He lost his cool. For the beliefs he has, and all the love he talks about... he shouldn't be so aggressive. This has made me question where Deepak is in his spiritual path. Deepak's publications resonate with me a lot... I haven't listened to a whole lot of them, but I've never found anything he said in his books to be untrue. Unfortunately in this discussion, he became angry. He made some really great points, but he also showed signs of spiritual amateurism.

On the other hand, the woman with him... Gene I believe... She was great. She was right there, in the present. She listened to the questions. She gave thoughtful and helpful answers every time she was addressed.

I was amazed that ABC hosted this event. I found out at the end that ABC was there because Deepak was there... I guess that makes sense considering Deepak's large following.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

The video itself is full of thoughtful insight. It's a mostly level-headed debate between science and religion. I feel that it's high time we spoke about a lot of the things mentioned in the video.

Before getting into the nitty gritty, meaty stuff, I just wanted to voice my visceral satisfaction at Sam Harris saying ''Repeating something over and over again with more persistence doesn't make it true''. I have no idea how many times I could have used that line in my life, it's very valuable!

In response to your note - no, not the video, I just can't stomach a God debate of some eminent scientists and spiritual gurus - I wrote down this note. It is too long and complicated for my taste, but given that you seem to be interested in this debate, perhaps you are interested in this note too. All the best,
Reflections: A Scientific Inquiry into God


Zeitgeist

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by CroMagna

I'm having problems hearing the video. Would you mind telling the gist of what they said? Is there a transcript?

Transcript for The Nightline Face-Off- Does God Have a Future? [1/12] The Nightline Face-Off- Does God Have a Future? [1/12] | dotSUB

This is the first part of 12 of a transcript. Unfortunately I'm having trouble finding all 12 parts through a Google search and through their website. If someone can help I would appreciate it!

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

The title reminds me of Nietsche's famous "God is dead" statement. Good luck debating this out.

Not sure how geniune that was, but thank you. Maybe it would help spur discussion along if I gave my own perspective?

For many years I read Chopra's books, among many other self-help and spiritual books by different authors. While I appreciated Chopra's writings, it struck me that a lot of what is said is unsubstantiated. I think there's value in his books regardless. The black guy at the end of the video talking about how his books helped him regain his speech is living proof.

But I have a scientific, rational side as well. Chopra's attitudes in the video disappointed me as well. I believe beliefs are unstable, potentially dangerous, without a well-reasoned foundation for holding one. I think the Universe can be explained without a conscious agent (the modern equivalent of a God). And I think one can be kind, compassionate, loving and spiritual without holding unproven or unprovable beliefs.

One interesting observation is that one side is talking about how religion operates and influences millions today (or as Deepak would say it...In the past), while the other side argues with the new age angle. I liked Michael's expression ''woo woo'' when referring to Mr. Chopra's explanations. Particularly their critique of the use of the quantum physics term ''non-local''. As they noted, Chopra's not a physicist. He's not using their words in their correct context or meaning. To me, that was a big crack in my belief in the LOA. Particularly the quantum physics approach to it.

By the way, Michael Shermer and Jean Houston are the two other speakers. I should have included them from the beginning. Sorry.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

In response to your note - no, not the video, I just can't stomach a God debate of some eminent scientists and spiritual gurus - I wrote down this note. It is too long and complicated for my taste, but given that you seem to be interested in this debate, perhaps you are interested in this note too. All the best,
Reflections: A Scientific Inquiry into God


Zeitgeist

Interesting. I see you're into subjective reality? It has its uses, but some things are just universally true or false. The God question falls under one of those.

Originally Posted by Zeitgeist's Blog

So how exactly can one make the existence of God and the prevalence of Oneness a working hypothesis and truly believe in it until proven otherwise? A couple of ways. The religious way would be to study the examples of the historic Sons and Daughters who have walked this earth. If you are convinced that their experience has been real, you will trust that you can achieve the same.

That's a rather large assumption. How do you get to this conviction through a scientific inquiry?

I'm curious to know more about Taoism as well.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Interesting. I see you're into subjective reality? It has its uses, but some things are just universally true or false. The God question falls under one of those.


That's a rather large assumption. How do you get to this conviction through a scientific inquiry?

I'm curious to know more about Taoism as well.

It is a little bit like 'The Secret' - how does debating whether it works help anyone? Just try for yourself if you can mentally manifest things as some people claim, and if you can't, dump the theory. I would never make an assertion like that, but I feel very comfortable claiming that you can discover the Tao or God if you have the faith that this metaphysical state exist.

[CroMagna]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

It is a little bit like 'The Secret' - how does debating whether it works help anyone? Just try for yourself if you can mentally manifest things as some people claim, and if you can't, dump the theory. I would never make an assertion like that, but I feel very comfortable claiming that you can discover the Tao or God if you have the faith that this metaphysical state exist.

People look for coincidences and think they manifested something when they didn't. When they don't manifest it, they make excuses like "I didn't try hard enough" or "the universe doesn't want me to have it yet."

You can have faith in Santa Claus. Does that make him real?

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

It is a little bit like 'The Secret' - how does debating whether it works help anyone?

It helps clear out confusion. If the debate is rational and level-headed of course, which is admittedly not an easy task considering the subject matter. That's why I posted this particular video. I think it's a good basis for a constructive conversation, no matter where we all stand.

Also, it's a good idea to leave beliefs behind you if there's not much logical foundation beneath them. I'm starting to think the LOA falls under this category. It has its uses as a self-help tool obviously, but I don't think it's a ''natural law''. I have very little evidence supporting that assertion anyway.

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Just try for yourself if you can mentally manifest things as some people claim, and if you can't, dump the theory.

That's an interesting approach, particularly if you believe in subjective reality. I don't. I believe we all hold individual perspectives in a grander, objective whole.

And I have to ask: Is it enough to simply ''dump a theory'' in regards to God? I don't believe so. I think all beliefs need to be tested and verified logically. Not doing so creates a fostering ground for ignorance, ill logic, discrimination based on ill-conceived notions, racism, injustice, sexism, homophobia and murder. Why? Because of faith. Belief in the absence of evidence. Or belief despite overwhelming contrary evidence.

I liken the human mind and heart to a tower. Without a solid foundation, it could fall any minute. It could cause a lot of havoc. Or we could find some of its hidden treasures in its rubble. The point is that I think there's lots of people walking around with poor foundations. And I think there's a domino effect to compound the problem.

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

I would never make an assertion like that, but I feel very comfortable claiming that you can discover the Tao or God if you have the faith that this metaphysical state exist.

I'm not sure which metaphysical state you're referring to. Is it the mental stillness that comes with meditation or something different? Something deeper?

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

I'm not sure which metaphysical state you're referring to. Is it the mental stillness that comes with meditation or something different? Something deeper?

When you see God, you know, then there is nothing to discuss anymore.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Let go of Deepak, the scientist or anyone else and merely take a look for yourself. This is what it inevitably comes to no matter what.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

When you see God, you know, then there is nothing to discuss anymore.

Good for you! Can you describe the experience for the rest of us?

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Good for you! Can you describe the experience for the rest of us?

I am with Chris on that, how does it matter what I see or I believe, this is about you.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

I am with Chris on that, how does it matter what I see or I believe, this is about you.

What I can say though, I found an authority in me who knows. Either I am deluded, or you will find the same authority in you, why should we be any different. You can search for yourself. If I am right, you will find the same voice.

Let me illustrate this idea with an example. The German business man Schliemann read Homer and decided that Troy was real and he set out to find it in today's Turkey. Now Troy could have been entirely fictional and he would have wasted a lot of effort and money. That was his decision very much like it is whether you give the God hypothesis a shot.