Is Enlightenment a choice?

[inconditus]

First we have to assume that we know what enlightenment is. For this question lets use a vague definition that enlightenment is understanding Oneness fully in every aspect of that person (mind, soul, spirit). It is a very high vibration but it is not being a full embodiment of God-akashic records come to mind for this, knowing EVERYTHING past, present and future.

Ok. Now the real question. Is enlightenment a choice or is it something that just happens? When you search for enlightenment are you actually getting any closer to it? Or farther away? Is letting go more ..... "productive" for lack of a better term?

Right now I feel like enlightenment is just something that happens to us when the time is right. It's not YOUR choice in the sense that pre awakening you are in the (:growl, I hate words "lower" part of yourself and you/ego would not make such a decision out of free will and understanding.

I am curious. What do you think? I've used a lot of trigger words so if possible try not to get hung up on them too much. This 26 letter strainer we call language cannot adequately describe anything metaphysical.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by inconditus

Right now I feel like enlightenment is just something that happens to us when the time is right. It's not YOUR choice in the sense that pre awakening you are in the (:growl, I hate words "lower" part of yourself and you/ego would not make such a decision out of free will and understanding.

I am curious. What do you think? I've used a lot of trigger words so if possible try not to get hung up on them too much. This 26 letter strainer we call language cannot adequately describe anything metaphysical.

Every moment the sky opens up and invites you do dance with the Cosmic Force. At this magic moment, you are enlightened and everyone who dances with you. So, yes, enlightenment is a choice from this perspective. Give yourself some credit, you are a spiritual giant already.

Yet, enlightenment is often used differently. It refers to the spiritual path traveler who have experienced God and have managed to come back to tell us about it. But why to waste time thinking about something that cannot be captured by thought anyway. Enjoy experiencing oneness now, that is all that matters.

Hope this helps,

Zeitgeist

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Enjoy experiencing oneness now, that is all that matters.

Well put.

(And, although out-of-character for me, I have nothing to add to that, that wouldn't be extraneous )

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by inconditus

When you search for enlightenment are you actually getting any closer to it? Or farther away? Is letting go more ..... "productive" for lack of a better term?

Enlightenment isn't anywhere so you can't search for it. Nor is letting go any more productive. Done with enlightenment as the goal, anything will be effective up to a point, and that point isn't enlightenment.

Rather than focusing on Oneness, try to better understand the Duality. It has characteristics and rules and purpose. The Duality is as all-encompassing as Oneness, yet you must wipe yourself clean of every bit of it to become enlightened.

[zeitgeist]

Vince, I have seen many amazing quotes in this forum, but the empty space one must be the best of 'em.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Vince, I have seen many amazing quotes in this forum, but the empty space one must be the best of 'em.

Haha, thanks! Quite metaphorical. Hadn't thought of my sig that way.

[alphamind]

I think that if it were a choice, we'd all be enlightened.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by alphamind

I think that if it were a choice, we'd all be enlightened.

Seems obvious enough to me.

[ChristsLight]

To whom does enlightenment occur?

[inconditus]

To whom does enlightenment occur. That's a trick question my friend. Because in truth enlightenment happens to everyone, eventually. That which we can observe at this present moment; however, enlightenment occurs to those that are ready for it.

The question is does one prepare for enlightenment or does it happen without any control? It does what it does type of deal.

To alphamind, I disagree. We are children of fear and that fear prevents us from feeling love and balance. That fear would also prevent us from being enlightened. You say that now because you do not perceive that you have that choice. If (the most known example) you were peter and Jeshua said to you "let the dead burry their own dead. Follow me and I shall give you life," would you? Could you really give up YOU as you perceive yourself to be?

Granted none of the disciples became enlightened in the traditional bible stories anyways so maybe thats not the best example but you get the idea.

@vince why do you say it is better to understand duality? I might understand what you mean but I would prefer you explain than assume.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by inconditus

@vince why do you say it is better to understand duality? I might understand what you mean but I would prefer you explain than assume.

Because Oneness is much much harder to understand. Easy to grasp the intellectual idea of it. Very difficult to go any further.

Understanding Duality teaches you what Oneness is not.

[alphamind]

Originally Posted by inconditus

To alphamind, I disagree. We are children of fear and that fear prevents us from feeling love and balance. That fear would also prevent us from being enlightened. You say that now because you do not perceive that you have that choice. If (the most known example) you were peter and Jeshua said to you "let the dead burry their own dead. Follow me and I shall give you life," would you? Could you really give up YOU as you perceive yourself to be?

Depends when you ask me ..

I have difficulty believing that "me as I perceive myself to be" as you put it is the creator with the free will. I believe this "me" is vastly influenced and guided by higher forces.

Recently I chose to make the house spotless and rid it of old impacted energies. Why have I not chose this earlier? Because apparently it wasn't its time yet. Another thing to note is that this choice took place through synchronicity.

At this moment I'm with you: I don't perceive myself to have the power to make such choices thus this is the reality that's created. One day possibly I will perceive myself as able to make such choices and I probably will be able to. My belief system tells me that I feel this way right now because of my influences...which I see going as deep as the Universe as a whole.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by inconditus

To whom does enlightenment occur. That's a trick question my friend. Because in truth enlightenment happens to everyone, eventually. That which we can observe at this present moment; however, enlightenment occurs to those that are ready for it.

The question is does one prepare for enlightenment or does it happen without any control? It does what it does type of deal.

What if I told you that no person is ever enlightened? Yet I'm not saying that enlightenment doesn't exist. But no "person" can ever reach it.

[inconditus]

alphamind indeed, indeed. Reality (again, as it is perceived) is fully of so many contradictions and yet there are none! That's why I hate language because so much cannot be explained through a combination of 26 letters. It can only be experienced.

Christlight I would say that I agree with you, brother.

vince This is true and I have/had that mind set; however, at some point you reach an ah-ha! moment where you realize that no matter how much you learn you'll never know everything. Hell you really don't even know anything, only what you perceive through your individual filter. If others agree with you then awesome if not then.. well... it is what it is. Unless are at a place where you can observe reality objectively then it's all a blur anyhow.

[kobay]

Enlightenment is a gift from above.

[wolfgang]

is not being enlightened a choice?

[Jane Doe]

Everything is a choice; you and only you are in complete control of your destiny. That does not mean you cannot receive guidance, but whether or not you want to follow that guidance is ultimately a choice. The entire notion of fate or a pre-determined destiny only exists in so far as you create your own destiny through the choices you make. You can be in conversation with the universe regarding decisions, but making the decision is ultimately up to the individual.

Just my two cents on the issue.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Jane Doe

Everything is a choice; you and only you are in complete control of your destiny. That does not mean you cannot receive guidance, but whether or not you want to follow that guidance is ultimately a choice. The entire notion of fate or a pre-determined destiny only exists in so far as you create your own destiny through the choices you make. You can be in conversation with the universe regarding decisions, but making the decision is ultimately up to the individual.

Just my two cents on the issue.

Nothing is a choice. You have no control over your destiny.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Nothing is a choice. You have no control over your destiny.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

In your sig, it says:

It shall be understood that any portion, no matter how small, of any density or illusory pattern contains, as in an holographic picture, the One Creator which is infinity.

--Ra

The one creator which encompasses infinity leaves no room for anything outside of that. Nothing can be other than this one creator itself. Nothing can operate autonomously. No volitional being operating independently from that one creator. It must be the one infinite creator operating everywhere at all times. Nothing can be separate from the one infinite creator in any way, and so it cannot be other than the one infinite creator everywhere. It means Arcanum and Anagogy are also functioning as one, appearing separate but inseparable in function. Anagogy is not the author of the choices made in Anagogy. There is one author; one infinite creator everywhere. Anagogy is not the author of his own thoughts. The one infinite creator is the author of all thoughts everywhere. There is nothing but the one infinite creator everywhere.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

In your sig, it says:

It shall be understood that any portion, no matter how small, of any density or illusory pattern contains, as in an holographic picture, the One Creator which is infinity.

The one creator which encompasses infinity leaves no room for anything outside of that. Nothing can be other than this one creator itself.

True.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Nothing can operate autonomously. No volitional being operating independently from that one creator. It must be the one infinite creator operating everywhere at all times.

Also true.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Nothing can be separate from the one infinite creator in any way, and so it cannot be other than the one infinite creator everywhere. It means Arcanum and Anagogy are also functioning as one, appearing separate but inseparable in function. Anagogy is not the author of the choices made in Anagogy. There is one author; one infinite creator everywhere. Anagogy is not the author of his own thoughts. The one infinite creator is the author of all thoughts everywhere. There is nothing but the one infinite creator everywhere.

And that is precisely why I don't agree with the statement: "Nothing is a choice. You have no control over your destiny."

If God is everything, then Anagogy is also God, and so is Arcanum. When you say Anagogy or Arcanum has no choice, it makes it sound like there are a bunch of parts -- some of which are slaves, and then another bigger part which is the controller or master of said slaves. But, in truth, there are no parts, as you so eloquently put. Every illusory piece contains the whole within it. Everything is the creator. If the creator wills it, it is so.

It just seems kind of dis-empowering to this here vantage point, the way you talk about it. To say the person cannot choose is kind of like saying that person is not also God. It wants to imply that they are something other than God. At least, it seems that way from my vantage point. From my perspective, God is a chooser, whether it is viewing itself from a human vantage point or otherwise.

Just a personal preference. Not to quibble or anything....

[Irisha]

Creator is everything plus-something- else-we-will-never-know-and-can-never-have-any-idea-about.
That's why we cannot have a choice. Creator=everything is true, but everything=Creator in untrue.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Jane Doe

Everything is a choice; you and only you are in complete control of your destiny. That does not mean you cannot receive guidance, but whether or not you want to follow that guidance is ultimately a choice. The entire notion of fate or a pre-determined destiny only exists in so far as you create your own destiny through the choices you make. You can be in conversation with the universe regarding decisions, but making the decision is ultimately up to the individual.

Just my two cents on the issue.

I had an instantaneous/spontaneous response and felt compelled to reply after reading your philosophy but I see Arcanum’s already stated it. It seems as though everyone has held this notion of yours at some point, perhaps closer examination will reveal illusions fueling this belief, recognizing these are mind altering ideas and one needs to take time to absorb them. Be assured that Arcanum’s response came from a well intentioned absolutely loving place; it becomes obvious after reading his writings that he has a unique gift and sophisticated technique of straightforwardness and consistency when trying to build a sense of conceptual complexities with words, belief nothing he says, rather ponder and question everything with your own natural intelligence. It seems wise to take advantage of him and others on this Forum especially the ones who freely invest time and patience without expectations of monetary gain. Unfortunately many people seem to come here to reinforce embedded beliefs instead of purging towards clarity.

My two cents, no more valuable then yours.

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

What if I told you that no person is ever enlightened? Yet I'm not saying that enlightenment doesn't exist. But no "person" can ever reach it.

Is it because the person is itself non existing ?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

And that is precisely why I don't agree with the statement: "Nothing is a choice. You have no control over your destiny."

If God is everything, then Anagogy is also God, and so is Arcanum. When you say Anagogy or Arcanum has no choice, it makes it sound like there are a bunch of parts -- some of which are slaves, and then another bigger part which is the controller or master of said slaves. But, in truth, there are no parts, as you so eloquently put. Every illusory piece contains the whole within it. Everything is the creator. If the creator wills it, it is so.

It just seems kind of dis-empowering to this here vantage point, the way you talk about it. To say the person cannot choose is kind of like saying that person is not also God. It wants to imply that they are something other than God. At least, it seems that way from my vantage point. From my perspective, God is a chooser, whether it is viewing itself from a human vantage point or otherwise.

Just a personal preference. Not to quibble or anything....

How can the truth be a personal preference?

It doesn't mean that you are a slave, it means that you are not a person; not a part. You are God and God is whole. There is no difference between what you are and what I am. When what you are steps into a human mind/body, you function according to the conditioning of that individuation, and that functioning is not separate from the functioning of all other individuations. All mind/bodies function as one, because they are all your expression. No expression acquires independent choice.

[wolfgang]

It's interesting that some will hear "there's no free will" as being powerless and unable to act on desires and a cause to be depressed as if nothing matters or that this means you are a victim to the universe and just have a certain life that you will have and that's that so "why bother?".

[Harmonium]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Nothing is a choice. You have no control over your destiny.

I am actually surprised you would say something like this based on what I've read from you.

it doesn't seem to make much sense to me. if freewill is somehow an illusion it's a damn convincing one.

I mean, given the fact that you could, right now, go down to your local bank, hold it up, take the money, kill the witnesses, etc. this could all easily alter your future/destiny, or perhaps a more plausible example might be: anywhere you make a decision that "forks" your "path" so to speak could alter your future in drastic ways.

Not to mention if you only had one destiny/future, you would arrive there no matter what you do. How does this make sense? It makes sense to me that people have different degrees of freewill, but to have no control over the future? I am interested to know how you came to this conclusion.

[Harmonium]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It's interesting that some will hear "there's no free will" as being powerless and unable to act on desires and a cause to be depressed as if nothing matters or that this means you are a victim to the universe and just have a certain life that you will have and that's that so "why bother?".

Well it makes sense to me that of course you can't choose your desires and preferences, etc. you cannot escape your own perspective, but is that really such a huge limit to freewill as to say it doesn't exist? Not to me. You still have lots of options available to you, you have potential you can reach or not reach, bad choices to make or not make, good choices to make or not make, etc.

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

It's interesting that some will hear "there's no free will" as being powerless and unable to act on desires and a cause to be depressed as if nothing matters or that this means you are a victim to the universe and just have a certain life that you will have and that's that so "why bother?".

What do you mean with this ? Difficult to understand. Please elaborate on that.

[raykilleen]

Choices; coffee or tea? Tea of course, I choose what I want. Yep the action was preceded by a desire, the desire was fueled by a thought and the thought was spontaneous, what?