The illusion

[Sponge]

Plea for some help:

I get it: intellectually. I can see I am prior to thought etc and if I can perceive thoughts, body, emotion then that's not me.
But then the 'misery' returns. I just forget to be aware and get so lost in my turbulent thoughts, which seem to be overtaking now. So where do I go from here? Why is it so hard to recognize something that I am?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Plea for some help:

I get it: intellectually. I can see I am prior to thought etc and if I can perceive thoughts, body, emotion then that's not me.
But then the 'misery' returns. I just forget to be aware and get so lost in my turbulent thoughts, which seem to be overtaking now. So where do I go from here? Why is it so hard to recognize something that I am?

The 'doer' is itself an illusion of mind. The belief that you must be aware or practice being aware is the trick of the mind to keep you from seeing that you are awareness itself. You need no practice nor is there anything you can do to be more aware. Even the watcher of the thoughts as well as the struggle to not get sucked into your thoughts is happening within the contents of awareness itself. They are phenomenons appearing within what you are.

You are lost in your thoughts because there is interest in those thoughts. If they did not appear so interesting to you this would not be a problem. The realization of what you are occurs outside of what you would see to be your conscious control otherwise you would simply will yourself awake. I say this not so that you may throw up your hands but so that you may relax. What you have noticed is but a peek into your true nature. You have put your foot between the door and you have created space. Be with that space that has opened and watch as it grows.

[Sponge]

Thank you, I was hoping someone like you would reply. But ( haha the famous but) why am I so interested in these thoughts when I know they create pain and seem to be taking me over? Why Am I experiencing in my life and continuously noticing/commenting on what I don't want so that I keep experiencing it? I want out like never before. I feel like I'm battling with myself.

I have to soak in what you have written as am too tired right now.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Thank you

I have to soak in what you have written ... now.

No kidding, you can't fight your nature Sponge.

Experience whatever you experience, it is all good. Those little mental struggles, to go from one level of awareness to the next are here to show you who you really are, it will all settle in time. I bet you a snake has to shake a little before the old skin comes off.

[Sponge]

Please let it settle soon..don't know how much more I can take!

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Please let it settle soon..don't know how much more I can take!

The age of the biggest turmoil is also the age of the biggest opportunity. Hang in there my friend!

[raykilleen]

Distraction of mind similar to mirrors reflecting mirrors

[Keiju]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Plea for some help:

I get it: intellectually. I can see I am prior to thought etc and if I can perceive thoughts, body, emotion then that's not me.
But then the 'misery' returns. I just forget to be aware and get so lost in my turbulent thoughts, which seem to be overtaking now. So where do I go from here? Why is it so hard to recognize something that I am?

If you run, then eventually you will become "miserable" because you are out of breath and the body is out of stamina.

I think this can apply to your situation, you have exhausted a form of mental stamina causing misery.

Take a break and do simple things you enjoy, easier for some people than others.


It is not possible to think away stamina problems, or injuries. It takes time to heal. If you feel bad, sure you can stop what is causing the pain, but you can not heal the damage or stamina exhaused prior to stopping without allowing time.



Also in life, many people strive for awareness and that knowledge can make you happy.

The way I see it, awareness and knowledge is to be utilised to overcome entropy to succeed in achieving your greatest and truest desires.

What is the point of knowledge if it is never applied to your everyday life to attain "things", so called "material objects" that are really no more material than the "spiritual objects". If spiritual exists, then it can be objectified and thus is "material" as an object that can be attained.

Was God satisfied with simply "knowing" or did God apply his knowledge to actually do something.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Thank you, I was hoping someone like you would reply. But ( haha the famous but) why am I so interested in these thoughts when I know they create pain and seem to be taking me over? Why Am I experiencing in my life and continuously noticing/commenting on what I don't want so that I keep experiencing it? I want out like never before. I feel like I'm battling with myself.

I have to soak in what you have written as am too tired right now.

You likely believe these painful thoughts to be true in some way. You also likely believe other thoughts that are in contradiction to these painful thoughts to be true and so there's a process of reconciliation and battle with yourself going on which can never be reconciled. Without your identification with these thoughts, they have absolutely no power. Of course this is merely speculation on my part.

Are you noticing/commenting on what you don't want or are there just thoughts appearing to which you either believe or you don't? Do you know what thought will appear before it appears? If you see yourself as the mind which is to say that perhaps you see yourself as the author of the thoughts that are saying you want out like never before, it will appear as though you are along for the ride and thoughts are plaguing you. You are not any of these thoughts. Not even the ones that seem true or make you feel good. They are appearing to you.

What you do and don't want is just another thought you believe to be true.
Freedom is already the case. There isn't somewhere you have to get to or something the mind can attain. You simply have to stop believing you are something you are not. The mind is a process of commenting and problem solving. Your freedom doesn't depend on whether it stops commenting or not.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The 'doer' is itself an illusion of mind. The belief that you must be aware or practice being aware is the trick of the mind to keep you from seeing that you are awareness itself. You need no practice nor is there anything you can do to be more aware. Even the watcher of the thoughts as well as the struggle to not get sucked into your thoughts is happening within the contents of awareness itself. They are phenomenons appearing within what you are.

You are lost in your thoughts because there is interest in those thoughts. If they did not appear so interesting to you this would not be a problem. The realization of what you are occurs outside of what you would see to be your conscious control otherwise you would simply will yourself awake. I say this not so that you may throw up your hands but so that you may relax. What you have noticed is but a peek into your true nature. You have put your foot between the door and you have created space. Be with that space that has opened and watch as it grows.

Ok reread this now and is clear. One practice I have read is of awareness watching itself but I know this sounds crazy, in my illusion, I can't seem to do it! But I understand now why it is a suggested practice.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

The age of the biggest turmoil is also the age of the biggest opportunity. Hang in there my friend!

This has occurred to me, ok thanks am hanging...

[SlicK]

You're just reverting to the old, constant self. If you want to be aware most of the time, you'll have to change some neural networks
And if you will ask, how, the answer is persistence in the new idea. The trick is that the persistence has to be done with no less and no more effort than needed.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You likely believe these painful thoughts to be true in some way. You also likely believe other thoughts that are in contradiction to these painful thoughts to be true and so there's a process of reconciliation and battle with yourself going on which can never be reconciled. Without your identification with these thoughts, they have absolutely no power. Of course this is merely speculation on my part.

Are you noticing/commenting on what you don't want or are there just thoughts appearing to which you either believe or you don't? Do you know what thought will appear before it appears? If you see yourself as the mind which is to say that perhaps you see yourself as the author of the thoughts that are saying you want out like never before, it will appear as though you are along for the ride and thoughts are plaguing you. You are not any of these thoughts. Not even the ones that seem true or make you feel good. They are appearing to you.

What you do and don't want is just another thought you believe to be true.
Freedom is already the case. There isn't somewhere you have to get to or something the mind can attain. You simply have to stop believing you are something you are not. The mind is a process of commenting and problem solving. Your freedom doesn't depend on whether it stops commenting or not.

You likely believe these painful thoughts to be true in some way. You also likely believe other thoughts that are in contradiction to these painful thoughts to be true and so there's a process of reconciliation and battle with yourself going on which can never be reconciled. Without your identification with these thoughts, they have absolutely no power. Of course this is merely speculation on my part.>
No, you're absolutely right. I have these negative awful thoughts that I am identifying with and then the part of me that keeps saying 'this isn't true' it's just thoughts/beliefs. The part of me that wants change is arguing with the part that keeps thinking these unwanted thoughts. I think I was happier when I didn't know any better in some ways!

Are you noticing/commenting on what you don't want or are there just thoughts appearing to which you either believe or you don't?
>mmmmm I guess it feels like the former
Do you know what thought will appear before it appears? If you see yourself as the mind which is to say that perhaps you see yourself as the author of the thoughts that are saying you want out like never before, it will appear as though you are along for the ride and thoughts are plaguing you. You are not any of these thoughts. Not even the ones that seem true or make you feel good. They are appearing to you.
>thanks this all helps

What you do and don't want is just another thought you believe to be true.
Freedom is already the case. There isn't somewhere you have to get to or something the mind can attain. You simply have to stop believing you are something you are not. The mind is a process of commenting and problem solving. Your freedom doesn't depend on whether it stops commenting or not
>ok how? Yes I see the humour in that question...sighs.

In all seriousness, (bare with me) thanks the whole thing makes me laugh. Any thought appearing is now met with 'well that's just a thought...and so is that..and so is that' leaving me with, well, nothing. But I've been here before, there is too much interest in my thoughts and I simply forget that they're not me. I know I have to relax.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by SlicK

You're just reverting to the old, constant self. If you want to be aware most of the time, you'll have to change some neural networks
And if you will ask, how, the answer is persistence in the new idea. The trick is that the persistence has to be done with no less and no more effort than needed.

Well I think I have tried too hard previously to change thought patterns and here I am some years later playing the same tapes.

I had some Theta healing the other day. I was told I was carrying issues from the 'goddess' (before Adam and Eves time) and I have a 'Witch' holding onto these thoughts. Doesn't give me much hope, lol!
I think my answer would be not to pay so much attention to myself but I literally just get sucked in. It's not until after the mental activity has passed that I even realise it sometimes- just feels out of my control. Maybe there really is a Witch.

[SlicK]

Your own resistance, the Devil, Mara, they're all the same thing to me now and none is better than the other. Learn how to tackle it. I forgot the name of the user on this forum, but he recommended a very good book called "War of art". It treats the subject of resistance really well.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

In all seriousness, (bare with me) thanks the whole thing makes me laugh. Any thought appearing is now met with 'well that's just a thought...and so is that..and so is that' leaving me with, well, nothing. But I've been here before, there is too much interest in my thoughts and I simply forget that they're not me. I know I have to relax.

Well, it's not enough to say 'well, that's just a thought' as long as the thought is believed to be true. It becomes just another thought. Thoughts are true/false in a limited context ('I'm frustrated with this whole thinking nonsense') but not ultimately true. (The 'me' that is frustrated is just an idea). It actually has to be realized that no thought is ultimately true. In this realization, interest in the thoughts will be lost and they won't happen anymore unless they are needed to function within that limited context.

I am a separate, volitional person, is not true.
I can control my thoughts, is not true.
I'm going to die, is not true.
I can be an enlightened person, is not true.
I can identify what I really an, is not true.
I'm trapped, is not true.
Thoughts are preventing the realization of Truth, is not true.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Well, it's not enough to say 'well, that's just a thought' as long as the thought is believed to be true. It becomes just another thought. Thoughts are true/false in a limited context ('I'm frustrated with this whole thinking nonsense') but not ultimately true. (The 'me' that is frustrated is just an idea). It actually has to be realized that no thought is ultimately true. In this realization, interest in the thoughts will be lost and they won't happen anymore unless they are needed to function within that limited context.

I am a separate, volitional person, is not true.
I can control my thoughts, is not true.
I'm going to die, is not true.
I can be an enlightened person, is not true.
I can identify what I really an, is not true.
I'm trapped, is not true.
Thoughts are preventing the realization of Truth, is not true.

Ok makes perfect sense but (but but but) now I have to ask...How? How do you stop believing and giving power to the thoughts or will it just happen?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Ok makes perfect sense but (but but but) now I have to ask...How? How do you stop believing and giving power to the thoughts or will it just happen?

It's necessary to see the truth of the matter. It's necessary to look and to see that thought has no ultimate foundation, that ego has no substance, that free will is a myth, that separation is an illusion, that time and space are ideas that are happening here and now, that nothing you can think is true.

When everything is seen for what it is, there is no more illusion, just appearances. Everything appears at it did, but your thoughts about it are not taken to be true, and there is nowhere for them to stick; no way for them to pull you in.

This is enough. You need not find yourself as you never went missing, obviously so. What you are is this presence itself, and cannot be absent, obviously so. What you are is unboundedness itself, eternity, obviously so.
It is obvious not because of what you have learned, but because of what you have unlearned. Not because of what you know, but because of what you don't know. Not because you have felt around the edges of yourself and have identified the boundaries, but because all boundaries have collapsed, and yet you remain. Here you are. I am. Obviously so.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

=

Are you noticing/commenting on what you don't want or are there just thoughts appearing to which you either believe or you don't?
>mmmmm I guess it feels like the former
=

Right. Then it still seems like you are the mind and the mind has been split up between thoughts you think you're thinking and ones that are just happening that you don't like. The reality is that you are not the thinker of any of these thoughts and this must be realized.

Essentially identifying with some thoughts as 'you' who is watching what you believe to be the mind which is of course just more thoughts. Mind watching mind trying to transcend itself.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

In all seriousness, (bare with me) thanks the whole thing makes me laugh. Any thought appearing is now met with 'well that's just a thought...and so is that..and so is that' leaving me with, well, nothing. But I've been here before, there is too much interest in my thoughts and I simply forget that they're not me. I know I have to relax.

'well that's just a thought' is just another thought you're identifying with (I promise I'm not playing word games here, hehe). The actual nature of thought, mind and self must be seen clearly from outside of the realm of thought.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's necessary to see the truth of the matter. It's necessary to look and to see that thought has no ultimate foundation, that ego has no substance, that free will is a myth, that separation is an illusion, that time and space are ideas that are happening here and now, that nothing you can think is true.

When everything is seen for what it is, there is no more illusion, just appearances. Everything appears at it did, but your thoughts about it are not taken to be true, and there is nowhere for them to stick; no way for them to pull you in.

This is enough. You need not find yourself as you never went missing, obviously so. What you are is this presence itself, and cannot be absent, obviously so. What you are is unboundedness itself, eternity, obviously so.
It is obvious not because of what you have learned, but because of what you have unlearned. Not because of what you know, but because of what you don't know. Not because you have felt around the edges of yourself and have identified the boundaries, but because all boundaries have collapsed, and yet you remain. Here you are. I am. Obviously so.

Ok I get it, or rather don't get it. Feels clearer. Everything needs to collapse although that is still a thought. So esentially it can't be talked about?
My brain feels fried. I think I'll leave it there for now and perhaps come back to this thread if I need to.
Very clear posts (what I need)thank you.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

'well that's just a thought' is just another thought you're identifying with (I promise I'm not playing word games here, hehe). The actual nature of thought, mind and self must be seen clearly from outside of the realm of thought.

No don't worry, as I said I have a good intellectual understanding so know you're not playing word games. It's almost like my mind/being won't go there.
Thanks for helping me out...here's to freedom..I know I know another thought right?

[Sponge]

By the way, is it me or is this quite scary? Know why I don't want to go there maybe. How can everything that I believe and think not be real?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

By the way, is it me or is this quite scary? Know why I don't want to go there maybe. How can everything that I believe and think not be real?

It can be unbelievably scary. It may even seem as though you will die.

[Sponge]

Great way to make me feel better...lol!

One other thing, if we have no free will because we don't know what thought will appear next then how do we know to respond to conversation? Does that make sense? I mean who's doing that if not us by will? (I really don't know if that question will make any sense but it does to me).

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Great way to make me feel better...lol!

One other thing, if we have no free will because we don't know what thought will appear next then how do we know to respond to conversation? Does that make sense? I mean who's doing that if not us by will? (I really don't know if that question will make any sense but it does to me).

Nobody's doing it. Thought (including the thought to respond) is a spontaneous expression of intelligence (Awareness). There's no need for a person of some kind to make those decisions and direct traffic. All of that is taken care of, including the thought to weigh options or whatever is involved in that process.

The thought occurs that you are hungry, followed by the thought to go to Mickey D's, accompanied by the willingness and the means to do that, and so the doing happens. This all occurs without a conscious decision. If a conscious decision is declared, it's just because it is believed that somebody is in control and must make one, but it's actually irrelevant as it's already done.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Great way to make me feel better...lol!

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Great way to make me feel better...lol!

Well you might thank me when you're facing this fear of death if for only that it gives you the slightest microscopic bit of comfort. Realistically though, it doesn't seem to matter how much warning one gets.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Well you might thank me when you're facing this fear of death if for only that it gives you the slightest microscopic bit of comfort. Realistically though, it doesn't seem to matter how much warning one gets.

That might be true if he sees that, in fact, you lived to tell about it........but did you? Hehe.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

That might be true if he sees that, in fact, you lived to tell about it........but did you? Hehe.

shh.