The illusion

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, as crazy it sounds, that's one possible interpretation, and not an invalid one, if you consider Jesus' acension into "heaven". Such is the very reason I'm looking into the Koine Greek for "heaven" (there's a difference between "heaven" as the sky, and "heaven" as that mythical place where the faithful go after they die).

There's actually all sorts of documentaries about many ancient civilizations stating they had alien encounters and some interpreting God as literally being a creature coming out of the sky. There was one where they found this small scaled gold plane. They rebuilt it to scale and it flew with precision aerodynamics.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

So, the Latin Vulgate is itself a 4th century translation of the Vetus Latina, which is itself a translation of........?

The Vulgate is really more a compilation of the Vetus Latina, as well as formal translation of all the "official" (meaning authorized by the Church) Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts. All of which, of course, makes even the Vulgate suspect of losing stuff in translation. But, I know some Latin, and it's still more insightful than anything more recent.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

There's actually all sorts of documentaries about many ancient civilizations stating they had alien encounters and some interpreting God as literally being a creature coming out of the sky. There was one where they found this small scaled gold plane. They rebuilt it to scale and it flew with precision aerodynamics.

Not surprising. Crop circles have long fascinated me, and I've seen some of those documentaries.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Where one is looking FROM is much more important than what one is looking AT.

Precisement. Though the realization and practice of that has proven to me to be much more difficult than the statement would imply.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The way it seemed to me in relation to the Gospel of Thomas, and it's just an impression, was that what truth may have survived is sufficiently obscure that those attempting to modify for their own purposes had no real clue what was being said, and so it was left alone.

This has always been my impression, also, which is why I prefer Jerome's translation.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, as crazy it sounds, that's one possible interpretation, and not an invalid one, if you consider Jesus' acension into "heaven". Such is the very reason I'm looking into the Koine Greek for "heaven" (there's a difference between "heaven" as the sky, and "heaven" as that mythical place where the faithful go after they die).

Hmmmmm........................

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

The Vulgate is really more a compilation of the Vetus Latina, as well as formal translation of all the "official" (meaning authorized by the Church) Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic texts. All of which, of course, makes even the Vulgate suspect of losing stuff in translation. But, I know some Latin, and it's still more insightful than anything more recent.

Yeah, clearly a step closer than the King James Bible, but still not very close to anything original, or what would you say?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yeah, clearly a step closer than the King James Bible, but still not very close to anything original, or what would you say?

Actually, I would say it's very much closer to the original than anything since. But, unless one knows Hebrew, Koine Greek and Aramaic, nothing is likely to come closer to the original than the Vulgate, which is why I study it (though that it is in Latin is also reason for me--keeps me brushed up on it, to a degree).

Here's an example of the fundamental differences between the Vulgate and the King James (this is a popular psalm):

The Lord guides me, and nothing shall I lack. In a place of pasture, there he has placed me. Besides water of refreshment he has led me. My soul he has converted. He has led me down the footpath of justice for the sake of his name. For even if I shall walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I shall not fear evil, for you are with me. Your rod (for punishment), and your staff (for guidance), they have consoled me. You have prepared in my sight a table against those who press me; you have anointed my head with oil; and my inebriating chalice, how beautiful it is! (Not only) shall your mercy follow me all the days of my life, (but also so) that I may dwell in the house of the Lord into the length of days.

This is a very literal translation of the Latin (parentheticals are mine for comprehension).

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

In as practical terms as possible, you can see that you are the one making up the ideas and then grasping them and taking them to be true. You may be inclined to dismiss this seeing as just something else appearing on the screen; more appearances in mind, but you are not limited to mind and it's appearances. You are also the source, the projector, the one imagining all these ideas into apparent existence, and this can be realized, not as another appearance on the screen, but by looking around the theater and noticing what's going on.

This noticing is quite subtle, of course. You don't actually perceive a projector, there's simply the realization that what appears on the screen has no real foundation; that in a sense, the events aren't even happening at all. This isn't the same as more knowledge appearing on the screen, it's the realization that nothing happening is actually true. It's the loss of the knowledge that something is actually happening 'out there', or that there is an 'out there'.

Some ideas, such as good and bad, are highly subjective and it's easy to see you are making them up because you identify with the subjective person who apparently personally formed those ideas, but when you stop identifying with one of the characters on the screen for a moment, you notice that you're making up all the characters, and the scenery and everything else that appears on the screen. You, however, do not appear on the screen.

OK, so all in all we are only talking here of collapsing belief systems, e.g. the belief in being a seperate person and victim to outer forces. When the belief collapses nothing really changes. The body will even after the collapsing move around doing things, so the appearence will be there as an appearence, only identification stops.

We are talking here so much words in all topics all over the forum but it is only about collapsing the idea of "being a body which will suffer and die in the end". It is quite simple and yet so hard.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

We are talking here so much words in all topics all over the forum but it is only about collapsing the idea of "being a body which will suffer and die in the end". It is quite simple and yet so hard.

I've noticed, myself, that it is only as hard as you 'think' it is.

It's odd, but you really have to let go of everything, including the thought that it's 'hard'. In the end, it's only as 'hard' as you make it out to be. Roll with the flow.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

OK, so all in all we are only talking here of collapsing belief systems, e.g. the belief in being a seperate person and victim to outer forces. When the belief collapses nothing really changes. The body will even after the collapsing move around doing things, so the appearence will be there as an appearence, only identification stops.

We are talking here so much words in all topics all over the forum but it is only about collapsing the idea of "being a body which will suffer and die in the end". It is quite simple and yet so hard.

Yeah, very simple, and yet we build such complex thought/feeling structures around that identity that we usually have no choice but to dismantle it from the top down, and so we end up talking about secondary beliefs and attachments and projection and denial, and along the way get sidetracked by a plethora of diversions because the same mind that built the structure, that doesn't really know how to do anything but build structures, is trying to disassemble it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I've noticed, myself, that it is only as hard as you 'think' it is.

It's odd, but you really have to let go of everything, including the thought that it's 'hard'. In the end, it's only as 'hard' as you make it out to be. Roll with the flow.

True, even the idea that it's difficult, believed in, becomes a reality and has to be played out.

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yeah, very simple, and yet we build such complex thought/feeling structures around that identity that we usually have no choice but to dismantle it from the top down, and so we end up talking about secondary beliefs and attachments and projection and denial, and along the way get sidetracked by a plethora of diversions because the same mind that built the structure, that doesn't really know how to do anything but build structures, is trying to disassemble it.

Yeah, that is true. I can clearly see how mind is trying to create entire universes of thought structures regarding enlightenment.

Sometimes there is a quiet moment and the idea is nearly seen as it is and the body feels like a stranger. But this is very scary and then new thoughts like "ahhh what is happening ?" or "is this now enlightenment ?" pops up into awareness and mind is again turning around into new concepts.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

Yeah, that is true. I can clearly see how mind is trying to create entire universes of thought structures regarding enlightenment.

Sometimes there is a quiet moment and the idea is nearly seen as it is and the body feels like a stranger. But this is very scary and then new thoughts like "ahhh what is happening ?" or "is this now enlightenment ?" pops up into awareness and mind is again turning around into new concepts.

Zaklee. Maybe the idea of enlightenment is useful because it makes known the possibility of transcending suffering, but then mind turns it into the object of pursuit, imagining all sorts of things acquired, and yet it is a loss only. The boundless space that forms in this absence cannot be imagined and is not a useful focus.

Actually, we have all experienced those breathless moments of beauty, wonder or love. That timeless moment, about which nothing at all is known, IS enlightenment; the absence of self and it's horror story. the story of cause and effect that mind writes about that moment is NOT true. Mind cannot know what is present in it's own absence.

[Placebo23]

May I tell you something, Arcanum. You wrote to me in a pm a very intresting sentence (hopefully you don't mind it, that I post it here):

This changelessness goes on watching, and at some point falls for the idea that it is the changefull, and then gets the idea that it can go looking for the changeless. Notice the absurdity of this.

While reading this someting happened which never happened before.
I don't know what exactly happened but it was a very strange and scary thing. It was so chattering and scary that even the visit to the dentist was joyful. It was extreme peace but on the same time felt like death.

Hard to tell in words what was happening.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

May I tell you something, Arcanum. You wrote to me in a pm a very intresting sentence (hopefully you don't mind it, that I post it here):



While reading this someting happened which never happened before.
I don't know what exactly happened but it was a very strange and scary thing. It was so chattering and scary that even the visit to the dentist was joyful. It was extreme peace but on the same time felt like death.

Hard to tell in words what was happening.

Sounds like the peace shone through in the temporary collapse of that idea, and the fear arose as mind scrambled to rebuild the structure. Good stuff.

What collapses the structures of belief in mind is the realization of the illusory foundation of those structures, and this clarity occurs 'beyond mind', as a kind of expansion of awareness just beyond those conceptual boundaries. Seeing of this kind must have a permanent effect on the conditioning of mind, and so it is always auspicious.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

Hard to tell in words what was happening.

The story of my life

Lately, I've had a sense that the ability to put stuff into words is really less important than the motives behind such an effort.

[inri]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Where one is looking FROM is much more important than what one is looking AT.

OOoooooh Arc..this one resonates deeply....

About 6 months ago, Wolfgang recommended an author to me and as LOA would have it, I immediately stumbled across one of her books in a 2nd hand store....Jac O'Keefe was the author..."Born to be Free" ..the title....on the front cover a quote; "The Freedom you look for is where you look from"......Right on the spot, I adopted it as my new fav. motto.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by inri

OOoooooh Arc..this one resonates deeply....

About 6 months ago, Wolfgang recommended an author to me and as LOA would have it, I immediately stumbled across one of her books in a 2nd hand store....Jac O'Keefe was the author..."Born to be Free" ..the title....on the front cover a quote; "The Freedom you look for is where you look from"......Right on the spot, I adopted it as my new fav. motto.

Or in non-dualese, "The seeker is the sought".