The illusion

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Yes Jed McKenna did a similar synopsis on the movie idea, simplified and updated version of Plato’s cave in one of his books.

And for those who like diagrams click here, page 12: http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/dow...lf_enquiry.zip

Yes as does Mr R Scheinfield in B.Loose, but you don't get it until you get it.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I would say that a belief won't do, as it must be seen with absolute clarity 'beyond mind'. Mind will introduce doubt into everything since mind just shuffles ideas around, and at some level it is known that nothing can be known beyond doubt within the framework of mind; that there is no solid foundation to mind's ideas.

That which watches mind can see through beliefs. It cannot conceptualize or know some knowledge to be true. It reveals the illusory nature of what mind is grasping. You can see that the idea that you are a separate volitional person is not more than an idea, and you can see this absolutely. This seeing is not subject to mind's doubt. Unless you then defer to mind's opinion on the matter, you will then know beyond belief. This is not difficult, but there must be the willingness to see. That's the challenge for most.

Got you. But again for me I just keep getting moments of absolute clarity but most of the time it's an idea only. However, am feeling, I don't know...lighter somehow. I don't have too much to say at the moment.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I would say that a belief won't do, as it must be seen with absolute clarity 'beyond mind'. Mind will introduce doubt into everything since mind just shuffles ideas around, and at some level it is known that nothing can be known beyond doubt within the framework of mind; that there is no solid foundation to mind's ideas.

That which watches mind can see through beliefs. It cannot conceptualize or know some knowledge to be true. It reveals the illusory nature of what mind is grasping. You can see that the idea that you are a separate volitional person is not more than an idea, and you can see this absolutely. This seeing is not subject to mind's doubt. Unless you then defer to mind's opinion on the matter, you will then know beyond belief. This is not difficult, but there must be the willingness to see. That's the challenge for most.

Originally Posted by Sponge

Got you. But again for me I just keep getting moments of absolute clarity but most of the time it's an idea only. However, am feeling, I don't know...lighter somehow. I don't have too much to say at the moment.

I don't have much to say, myself, at the moment, but I do have a question that follows from the exchange above.

Would, then, a vacillation between clarity and maintaining beliefs be due to one's "willingness to see"? In the same vein, what can be said about any gradual shift towards clarity?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Got you. But again for me I just keep getting moments of absolute clarity but most of the time it's an idea only. However, am feeling, I don't know...lighter somehow. I don't have too much to say at the moment.

Sounds good. Absolute clarity is just that. If it IS absolute clarity, and this is lost somehow, it's only because you defer to mind, and as I say, mind WILL muddy the waters and throw everything into doubt again. If it is seen, take a stand for the sovereignty of your own seeing, and leave mind alone. The question is, did it arrive as absolute clarity, or was it a conclusion of mind? Look again and see.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I don't have much to say, myself, at the moment, but I do have a question that follows from the exchange above.

Would, then, a vacillation between clarity and maintaining beliefs be due to one's "willingness to see"? In the same vein, what can be said about any gradual shift towards clarity?

I would say it is due to the mind's resistance to the implications of that clarity. If there is the willingness to look and to see, this is a good sign, but mind is bound to resist. Mind's reasoning cannot actually overwhelm that clarity, unless we are willing to let it do so.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I would say it is due to the mind's resistance to the implications of that clarity. If there is the willingness to look and to see, this is a good sign, but mind is bound to resist. Mind's reasoning cannot actually overwhelm that clarity, unless we are willing to let it do so.

Yeah, makes sense.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

In the same vein, what can be said about any gradual shift towards clarity?

If the gradual shift towards clarity seems peaceful and an easy ride, it probably isn't a movement towards clarity. It's probably hiding even further from truth. If however it seems generally uncomfortable ranging all the way to being torn open from within and utterly confusing, I'd say that's a good sign. Because, lets be clear, it's not about finding a new way for the person to live their life and be happy around the clock. It's going to appear in most cases to the person as though they must give up everything.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

If the gradual shift towards clarity seems peaceful and an easy ride, it probably isn't a movement towards clarity. It's probably hiding even further from truth. If however it seems generally uncomfortable ranging all the way to being torn open from within and utterly confusing, I'd say that's a good sign. Because, lets be clear, it's not about finding a new way for the person to live their life and be happy around the clock. It's going to appear in most cases to the person as though they must give up everything.

Yeah. Which reminds me of a few gospel quotes, but I'll spare everyone all that.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Sounds good. Absolute clarity is just that. If it IS absolute clarity, and this is lost somehow, it's only because you defer to mind, and as I say, mind WILL muddy the waters and throw everything into doubt again. If it is seen, take a stand for the sovereignty of your own seeing, and leave mind alone. The question is, did it arrive as absolute clarity, or was it a conclusion of mind? Look again and see.

I think I defer to mind, because when it's clear it all makes perfect sense. It's just doing it's own thing- nothing to do with me. That's not something I've seen at all until starting this thread.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

If the gradual shift towards clarity seems peaceful and an easy ride, it probably isn't a movement towards clarity. It's probably hiding even further from truth. If however it seems generally uncomfortable ranging all the way to being torn open from within and utterly confusing, I'd say that's a good sign. Because, lets be clear, it's not about finding a new way for the person to live their life and be happy around the clock. It's going to appear in most cases to the person as though they must give up everything.

I think judging by our posts it's not an easy or peaceful ride.
I just keep getting moments of, this is all I've know for x number of years (am not giving my age here)- how was I so duped?

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Yeah. Which reminds me of a few gospel quotes, but I'll spare everyone all that.

There's nothing like a good Gospel quote, go ahead!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

I think I defer to mind, because when it's clear it all makes perfect sense. It's just doing it's own thing- nothing to do with me. That's not something I've seen at all until starting this thread.

Sounds right. Notice that mind can't help you, either before or after the clarity shows up. As I think I've said, no guru understands with the mind. He speaks only from his present moment seeing, and only uses mind to communicate it as best he can.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

I think judging by our posts it's not an easy or peaceful ride.
I just keep getting moments of, this is all I've know for x number of years (am not giving my age here)- how was I so duped?

Yer right, it's not easy, but every time something is lost forever, the void is filled with Peace.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

I think judging by our posts it's not an easy or peaceful ride.
I just keep getting moments of, this is all I've know for x number of years (am not giving my age here)- how was I so duped?

It will come exactly as it needs to. Much of that will be making space in your mind (feeling lighter as you said) and burning up residual interest in deferring to mind. It's already quite apparent that you have a significant willingness to look and that courage is all you need. In the meantime just enjoy the ride because no matter how hard you try, you can't force it.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It will come exactly as it needs to. Much of that will be making space in your mind (feeling lighter as you said) and burning up residual interest in deferring to mind. It's already quite apparent that you have a significant willingness to look and that courage is all you need. In the meantime just enjoy the ride because no matter how hard you try, you can't force it.

Amen to that and I really thank you and Arc for baring with me, the support is invaluable. Perhaps it's a more gradual thing for me, to use the Analogy of the sun and clouds etc. Perhaps I'm already there but my ego is expecting something else.
Anyway I'll keep looking.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Sponge

There's nothing like a good Gospel quote, go ahead!

Sorry, Sponge. There are just too many people harboring too many assumptions and misinterpretations (illusions) about the Gospel, and I would hate to see this thread devolve into a discussion about the Gospel. Maybe a new thread would be appropriate, but suffice it to say that there are a number of topics being dealt with in these spirituality threads that correlate well with some of the things mentioned in the Gospel.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Sorry, Sponge. There are just too many people harboring too many assumptions and misinterpretations (illusions) about the Gospel, and I would hate to see this thread devolve into a discussion about the Gospel. Maybe a new thread would be appropriate, but suffice it to say that there are a number of topics being dealt with in these spirituality threads that correlate well with some of the things mentioned in the Gospel.

Most such discussions would horrify me too (hehe). However, I've spent some time discussing the GOT and actually found that there's quite a bit of (generally misunderstood it seems) wisdom there, and I think you're doing a direct interpretation of something from Latin? So, I would be interested in a separate thread on that, I think.

[sonde]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

If the gradual shift towards clarity seems peaceful and an easy ride, it probably isn't a movement towards clarity. It's probably hiding even further from truth. If however it seems generally uncomfortable ranging all the way to being torn open from within and utterly confusing, I'd say that's a good sign. Because, lets be clear, it's not about finding a new way for the person to live their life and be happy around the clock. It's going to appear in most cases to the person as though they must give up everything.

Thanks Chris. Yes, here it feels like becoming acclimatised to spells of abject terror.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Most such discussions would horrify me too (hehe). However, I've spent some time discussing the GOT and actually found that there's quite a bit of (generally misunderstood it seems) wisdom there, and I think you're doing a direct interpretation of something from Latin? So, I would be interested in a separate thread on that, I think.

Yes, translating the Latin Vulgate is rather an odd hobby of mine (I get so much more out of the New Testament than any other translation). But, originally, it was written in Hebrew (OT), Greek and Aramaic (NT), and I've often had to refer to King James (which translated from the Greek) in order to grasp some of the meaning, even in Latin (for example, lately, I've been wondering what was the original Greek term and meaning for what we now understand as "heaven"--in Latin, caelis simply means "sky").

But I digress. I'll consider starting a thread, but in my experience, Gospel discussions are highly contentious, and I'm not usually inclined to dedicate myself to contentious debates (unless I know I can learn or unlearn something from it).

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Yes, translating the Latin Vulgate is rather an odd hobby of mine (I get so much more out of the New Testament than any other translation). But, originally, it was written in Hebrew (OT), Greek and Aramaic (NT), and I've often had to refer to King James (which translated from the Greek) in order to grasp some of the meaning, even in Latin (for example, lately, I've been wondering what was the original Greek term and meaning for what we now understand as "heaven"--in Latin, caelis simply means "sky").

But I digress. I'll consider starting a thread, but in my experience, Gospel discussions are highly contentious, and I'm not usually inclined to dedicate myself to contentious debates (unless I know I can learn or unlearn something from it).

Well, it can be interesting to see how books and teachings that most people simply regard as tools of control actually can contain gems of truth if people are willing to look closely.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Well, it can be interesting to see how books and teachings that most people simply regard as tools of control actually can contain gems of truth if people are willing to look closely.

Well, that's the weird thing, though--it's not a matter of looking "closely," as that becomes not unlike your analagy of looking for the ketchup in the refrigerator (I like that analogy, btw). It's contextual, and that's what makes discussion so contentious, as most approach it from the perspective of content.

More on topic, many maintain their illusions through scripture by "looking closely" at scripture. Which is what makes the idea of a thread on such a topic as impracticable.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Amen to that and I really thank you and Arc for baring with me, the support is invaluable. Perhaps it's a more gradual thing for me, to use the Analogy of the sun and clouds etc. Perhaps I'm already there but my ego is expecting something else.
Anyway I'll keep looking.

Ah, your welcome. I couldn't hold it all in even if I wanted to. This is what I was sharing with Arcanum not too long ago. There's an overflowing movement to share no matter what the circumstances.

For me it was gradual until it suddenly was not and that spontaneous moment was completely out of my control. Now it's gradual again but not in the way that I feel as though I'm seeking anything. More in that what was suddenly revealed couldn't all be taken in at once so there's a progressively deeper seeing of it. No end points, no obtaining knowledge, just clearing away of what was not true.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, that's the weird thing, though--it's not a matter of looking "closely," as that becomes not unlike your analagy of looking for the ketchup in the refrigerator (I like that analogy, btw). It's contextual, and that's what makes discussion so contentious, as most approach it from the perspective of content.

More on topic, many maintain their illusions through scripture by "looking closely" at scripture. Which is what makes the idea of a thread on such a topic as impracticable.

Perhaps. You certainly have far more history with it than I do. If it doesn't feel right, no sweat.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Yes, translating the Latin Vulgate is rather an odd hobby of mine (I get so much more out of the New Testament than any other translation). But, originally, it was written in Hebrew (OT), Greek and Aramaic (NT), and I've often had to refer to King James (which translated from the Greek) in order to grasp some of the meaning, even in Latin (for example, lately, I've been wondering what was the original Greek term and meaning for what we now understand as "heaven"--in Latin, caelis simply means "sky").

So what was actually being talked about was aliens from outer space?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by sonde

Thanks Chris. Yes, here it feels like becoming acclimatised to spells of abject terror.

Hehe. Well, nothing I say is going to make it all better but the closest thing is to simply stay with the courage that led you to the terror itself. That terror can end at any moment if there is sufficient courage to truly face it and see it for what it is. I'm also assuming we're not talking about a cobra that's about to strike you or other such terror.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Yes, translating the Latin Vulgate is rather an odd hobby of mine (I get so much more out of the New Testament than any other translation). But, originally, it was written in Hebrew (OT), Greek and Aramaic (NT), and I've often had to refer to King James (which translated from the Greek) in order to grasp some of the meaning, even in Latin (for example, lately, I've been wondering what was the original Greek term and meaning for what we now understand as "heaven"--in Latin, caelis simply means "sky").

But I digress. I'll consider starting a thread, but in my experience, Gospel discussions are highly contentious, and I'm not usually inclined to dedicate myself to contentious debates (unless I know I can learn or unlearn something from it).

So, the Latin Vulgate is itself a 4th century translation of the Vetus Latina, which is itself a translation of........?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Well, it can be interesting to see how books and teachings that most people simply regard as tools of control actually can contain gems of truth if people are willing to look closely.

The way it seemed to me in relation to the Gospel of Thomas, and it's just an impression, was that what truth may have survived is sufficiently obscure that those attempting to modify for their own purposes had no real clue what was being said, and so it was left alone.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, that's the weird thing, though--it's not a matter of looking "closely," as that becomes not unlike your analagy of looking for the ketchup in the refrigerator (I like that analogy, btw). It's contextual, and that's what makes discussion so contentious, as most approach it from the perspective of content.

More on topic, many maintain their illusions through scripture by "looking closely" at scripture. Which is what makes the idea of a thread on such a topic as impracticable.

Where one is looking FROM is much more important than what one is looking AT.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by chrisginsburg

ah, your welcome. i couldn't hold it all in even if i wanted to. This is what i was sharing with arcanum not too long ago. There's an overflowing movement to share no matter what the circumstances.

For me it was gradual until it suddenly was not and that spontaneous moment was completely out of my control. Now it's gradual again but not in the way that i feel as though i'm seeking anything. More in that what was suddenly revealed couldn't all be taken in at once so there's a progressively deeper seeing of it. No end points, no obtaining knowledge, just clearing away of what was not true.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

So what was actually being talked about was aliens from outer space?

Well, as crazy it sounds, that's one possible interpretation, and not an invalid one, if you consider Jesus' acension into "heaven". Such is the very reason I'm looking into the Koine Greek for "heaven" (there's a difference between "heaven" as the sky, and "heaven" as that mythical place where the faithful go after they die).