The illusion

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It could very well be an alien from another galaxy come to murder you in your sleep when you least expect it.

Nah, he/she is quite friendly. Even lets me hand feed it.

In any case, I'm sure that blob of oneness will protect me.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

When I sit quietly I come to an understanding/a seeing of being prior to thought but then I seem to think about it, thoughts such as: 'oh look that's cool' or 'that's me and all I've ever known not me..ahh' and come straight out of it. I'm left with a deeper knowledge all day but still fairly stongly identified with this personality. I go in and out of it- do you know what I mean?

I do know what you mean. However, something is aware of even the understanding and the back and forth of identification. The entire struggle to be what you are is appearing to what you are. In other words, the belief that you have to get back to it, go visit it is what keeps the clear seeing of what you are hidden. You are not coming nor going.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Welcome to my world, sponge.

It becomes more prominent with a sort of 'practice', which depends on how devoted you are to focusing on it.

I knew it was only a matter of time before we arrived at the 'Being as a doing' topic again.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I do know what you mean. However, something is aware of even the understanding and the back and forth of identification. The entire struggle to be what you are is appearing to what you are. In other words, the belief that you have to get back to it, go visit it is what keeps the clear seeing of what you are hidden. You are not coming nor going.

Clever isn't it? My ego that is. Somehow it has to let go.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I knew it was only a matter of time before we arrived at the 'Being as a doing' topic again.

I'll be sure to keep my dictionary handy.

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by Sponge

When I sit quietly I come to an understanding/a seeing of being prior to thought but then I seem to think about it, thoughts such as: 'oh look that's cool' or 'that's me and all I've ever known not me..ahh' and come straight out of it. I'm left with a deeper knowledge all day but still fairly stongly identified with this personality. I go in and out of it- do you know what I mean?

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I do know what you mean. However, something is aware of even the understanding and the back and forth of identification. The entire struggle to be what you are is appearing to what you are. In other words, the belief that you have to get back to it, go visit it is what keeps the clear seeing of what you are hidden. You are not coming nor going.

Very nicely stated. It is exactly where my problem is. Sometimes a "watcher" is appearing in mind, which feels seperate from the mind and the body, but of the fact that this watcher appears to me, it is clear that it is not the watcher, it is just another concept appearing in front of me and so I go back and forth into strong identification with the body and the "being-a-seperate-from-the-body-watcher"-mode.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

Very nicely stated. It is exactly where my problem is. Sometimes a "watcher" is appearing in mind, which feels seperate from the mind and the body, but of the fact that this watcher appears to me, it is clear that it is not the watcher, it is just another concept appearing in front of me and so I go back and forth into strong identification with the body and the "being-a-seperate-from-the-body-watcher"-mode.

Me,too.

I do go through "shifts", though, (and did so, recently, after going through a sort of public anger episode with Arcanmum in the 'What Is, Is' thread), where the "watcher" becomes more prevalent, and what is being watched is seen in an entirely different, much less judgmental perspective (in terms of both 'good' and 'bad' judgment). It's much like an outer skin of an onion being peeled away, and dissolving.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I knew it was only a matter of time before we arrived at the 'Being as a doing' topic again.

You're just begging to be dragged back to grammar school by the ear, aren't ya?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Clever isn't it? My ego that is. Somehow it has to let go.

Clever enough to divide itself into two and sit and drum it's fingers waiting for it to let go.
Mind can't obscure the obviousness of you being aware of mind, thereby revealing that you are prior to mind, so it splits itself, draws a line in the sand and stages a battle with itself.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

Very nicely stated. It is exactly where my problem is. Sometimes a "watcher" is appearing in mind, which feels seperate from the mind and the body, but of the fact that this watcher appears to me, it is clear that it is not the watcher, it is just another concept appearing in front of me and so I go back and forth into strong identification with the body and the "being-a-seperate-from-the-body-watcher"-mode.

Yes, it may be necessary to become somewhat permanently established as the silent witness, meaning witnessing of mind without involvement. We could say this witness is the sense of existence that comes with consciousness. As you suggest, something is watching even the witnessing come and go, since it is absent when consciousness is not present, as in deep sleep.

That which knows of the witness coming and going is what you are, and is obviously here. It has no name, no attributes of any kind, as it is not observed by something else. Nothing stands behind that which is aware of consciousness coming and going, and so this is your core, about which you can know nothing because there is literally nothing to know. This is how you know it is the knower itself. To mind it is empty, boundless space, but it is not emptiness.

This awareness neither comes nor goes. It is that which knows of mind, body, ego and the witnessing that announces your existence, but it does not, itself, appear. As such, it cannot be known in the way appearances are known, but it also cannot NOT be known, as it is That by which all things are known; subjectivity itself. You stand solidly on your own groundedness.

It cannot be missed. You have not missed it. It cannot be absent. It is here in deep sleep. It was here before birth and will be here after death. It cannot go because it never came.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Me,too.

I do go through "shifts", though, (and did so, recently, after going through a sort of public anger episode with Arcanmum in the 'What Is, Is' thread), where the "watcher" becomes more prevalent, and what is being watched is seen in an entirely different, much less judgmental perspective (in terms of both 'good' and 'bad' judgment). It's much like an outer skin of an onion being peeled away, and dissolving.

Mind is like a river, forever flowing, and attention is either flowing down the river, being carried wherever it takes you, or attention is standing on the bank of the river watching mind. Since you are not mind, you can position yourself as the observer of mind, always. In time you will move further back from the bank and there will be no danger of falling in the river. This does not make you less human, it makes you more divine; more of what you are.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I'll be sure to keep my dictionary handy.

Hehe, we won't be needing the dictionary. Only a bit of interest in going there.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Clever isn't it? My ego that is. Somehow it has to let go.

What is this ego and what is it holding on to? What does it have to let go of?

Be very clear about what you mean by ego and mind. Where are they? Can you point to them? Can you find them? Are these terms you've heard many many times and incorporated as separate entities 'somewhere in there'?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You're just begging to be dragged back to grammar school by the ear, aren't ya?

Anything is possible. I'm willing to pretend we're talking about the rules of grammar for a bit longer if that's necessary.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Mind is like a river, forever flowing, and attention is either flowing down the river, being carried wherever it takes you, or attention is standing on the bank of the river watching mind. Since you are not mind, you can position yourself as the observer of mind, always. In time you will move further back from the bank and there will be no danger of falling in the river. This does not make you less human, it makes you more divine; more of what you are.

Are you able to bring your ego out to play, go for a swim?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

Very nicely stated. It is exactly where my problem is. Sometimes a "watcher" is appearing in mind, which feels seperate from the mind and the body, but of the fact that this watcher appears to me, it is clear that it is not the watcher, it is just another concept appearing in front of me and so I go back and forth into strong identification with the body and the "being-a-seperate-from-the-body-watcher"-mode.

Are you the interest that goes back and forth or is even this shifting interest appearing to you?

One moment your interest is in being the watcher and the next moment your interest shifts to a pain in your leg. Have you gone anywhere or have you watched even the watcher cease and body identification return?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Are you able to bring your ego out to play, go for a swim?

I guess it depends on what you mean by ego. If ego is the belief that I am Arcanum, there is no ego. If what you mean is the enjoyment of experiencing from this individual perspective, then of course. What doesn't happen is the unconsciousness that I mean to imply with falling into the river, and so I don't know how I would do that, really. Assuming I wanted to. Hehe.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I guess it depends on what you mean by ego. If ego is the belief that I am Arcanum, there is no ego. If what you mean is the enjoyment of experiencing from this individual perspective, then of course. What doesn't happen is the unconsciousness that I mean to imply with falling into the river, and so I don't know how I would do that, really. Assuming I wanted to. Hehe.

Operating in this world from an individual human perspective RayKilleen finds it easier to interact and wonder about with the tools of the given mind, I doubt anyone wants to fall back into a deep unconsciousness after awakening so it seems the tools are still available but they no longer rule the roost.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Operating in this world from an individual human perspective RayKilleen finds it easier to interact and wonder about with the tools of the given mind, I doubt anyone wants to fall back into a deep unconsciousness after awakening so it seems the tools are still available but they no longer rule the roost.

Mind is an amazing tool. As they say, a great slave but a horrible master. (Or whatever it is 'they' say.)

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Are you the interest that goes back and forth or is even this shifting interest appearing to you?

One moment your interest is in being the watcher and the next moment your interest shifts to a pain in your leg. Have you gone anywhere or have you watched even the watcher cease and body identification return?

The shifting is appearing to me. The shifting is itself only a change in focus on concepts, nothing more.

And yes, I watched even the watcher cease and the body identification return and this is because the "watcher" was not the real watcher, only a concept.
It is so obvious that everything is only appearing in front of me, but I cannot go beyond it. It is really like a prison and I'm turning round 'n round and try to see myself, like an eye, which cannot see itself. I think you know what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It cannot be missed. You have not missed it. It cannot be absent. It is here in deep sleep. It was here before birth and will be here after death. It cannot go because it never came.

Of course it can be missed, in deep sleep there is no sense of self or any existence. It is just blank nothing and it puzzles me every morning that I experienced a gap in existence, so without any memories of it.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

The shifting is appearing to me. The shifting is itself only a change in focus on concepts, nothing more.

And yes, I watched even the watcher cease and the body identification return and this is because the "watcher" was not the real watcher, only a concept.
It is so obvious that everything is only appearing in front of me, but I cannot go beyond it. It is really like a prison and I'm turning round 'n round and try to see myself, like an eye, which cannot see itself. I think you know what I'm talking about.

You cannot go beyond what?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

The shifting is appearing to me. The shifting is itself only a change in focus on concepts, nothing more.

And yes, I watched even the watcher cease and the body identification return and this is because the "watcher" was not the real watcher, only a concept.
It is so obvious that everything is only appearing in front of me, but I cannot go beyond it. It is really like a prison and I'm turning round 'n round and try to see myself, like an eye, which cannot see itself. I think you know what I'm talking about.



Of course it can be missed, in deep sleep there is no sense of self or any existence. It is just blank nothing and it puzzles me every morning that I experienced a gap in existence, so without any memories of it.

How is it that you know there is no sense of self? How can you be puzzled by a blank nothingness if you weren't there for the blank nothingness? This is why I say it can't be missed, and isn't missed. Here you are talking about what you missed. Did you really miss it?

I think maybe the difficulty is in your ideas about what is supposed to happen, though I'm not sure what those ideas are.

The sense of self comes and goes with consciousness, and you know this, so you are not consciousness or that sense of self. Something remains even in deep sleep where there is no mind, and it sounds like you know this too, so what you are doesn't depend on consciousness or mind. What you are never appears, so obviously it can't disappear, and yet you are here. You know you can't identify yourself, and I think you know why. You will never become an object of your own seeing, which would place that object before you and you would have to start turning around real quick again to see who is seeing.

Is that one really you; the one who is seeing? The one who does not come and go? That has no name, no birth, no death? The one in whom the entire universe appears? Is this not a monumental seeing? If you defer to mind it will lie to you. Remain in the sovereignty of your own seeing.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

What is this ego and what is it holding on to? What does it have to let go of?

Be very clear about what you mean by ego and mind. Where are they? Can you point to them? Can you find them? Are these terms you've heard many many times and incorporated as separate entities 'somewhere in there'?

There actually isn't an ego and there is nothing to hold on to.
I'm getting lots of aha moments, so perhaps it's loosening it's grip (I know what you're going to say:'what is?' but somehow we have to try to describe things).

And yet I've just been in a situation where someone was a bit rude and 'I felt offended'. Now that I've thought about it, it's comical. How can an illusion upset another illusion?...and yet I'm still annoyed.

Side Note:
(my waking up thoughts..)
I was thinking today, why on earth did we become our thoughts in the first place? How weird! Then I realised we had to, to function for a while, otherwise we'd have just sat there doing very little and things would be, well boring, and we have to then discover we're not our thoughts...

What happened before language developed?

I also really felt that Jesus really did suffer to tell us this message in the language of that time.

Another feeling is that I've felt this before, when I was younger I looked. But then forgot again.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

There actually isn't an ego and there is nothing to hold on to.
I'm getting lots of aha moments, so perhaps it's loosening it's grip (I know what you're going to say:'what is?' but somehow we have to try to describe things).
And yet I've just been in a situation where someone was a bit rude and 'I felt offended'. Now that I've thought about it, it's comical. How can an illusion upset another illusion?...and yet I'm still annoyed.

When we manipulate concepts, it can be confusing. What is annoyed is the belief in the separate self. That there isn't a separate self is an idea that is NOT believed.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

When we manipulate concepts, it can be confusing. What is annoyed is the belief in the separate self. That there isn't a separate self is an idea that is NOT believed.

Only when I stop still do I understand this. I look forward to a permanent belief in it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

Only when I stop still do I understand this. I look forward to a permanent belief in it.

I would say that a belief won't do, as it must be seen with absolute clarity 'beyond mind'. Mind will introduce doubt into everything since mind just shuffles ideas around, and at some level it is known that nothing can be known beyond doubt within the framework of mind; that there is no solid foundation to mind's ideas.

That which watches mind can see through beliefs. It cannot conceptualize or know some knowledge to be true. It reveals the illusory nature of what mind is grasping. You can see that the idea that you are a separate volitional person is not more than an idea, and you can see this absolutely. This seeing is not subject to mind's doubt. Unless you then defer to mind's opinion on the matter, you will then know beyond belief. This is not difficult, but there must be the willingness to see. That's the challenge for most.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

There actually isn't an ego and there is nothing to hold on to.
I'm getting lots of aha moments, so perhaps it's loosening it's grip (I know what you're going to say:'what is?' but somehow we have to try to describe things).

Yes I know what you mean. It's a bit like waking up in the morning still half asleep and half awake. Except we're talking more in weeks, months or even years in this case. There's many pitfalls along the way though and one of them is to simply dream about waking up so to speak. Becoming the non-person person who can conceptually understand it and believe it.

Originally Posted by Sponge

And yet I've just been in a situation where someone was a bit rude and 'I felt offended'. Now that I've thought about it, it's comical. How can an illusion upset another illusion?...and yet I'm still annoyed.

Eh, don't get hung up on it. The truth isn't a prescription for a way to live your life. There's still a very powerful belief in separation for you and so it plays out as such. It's not out of order or something to suppress or mentally ruminate on how annoyance could possibly be occurring. That internal struggle just keeps things nicely in place.

Originally Posted by Sponge

Side Note:
(my waking up thoughts..)
I was thinking today, why on earth did we become our thoughts in the first place? How weird! Then I realised we had to, to function for a while, otherwise we'd have just sat there doing very little and things would be, well boring, and we have to then discover we're not our thoughts...

What happened before language developed?

I also really felt that Jesus really did suffer to tell us this message in the language of that time.

Another feeling is that I've felt this before, when I was younger I looked. But then forgot again.

We never had to identify with thoughts to do anything. It becomes clearly apparent that it's all happening without any identification. It could be said that God isn't leaving any leaf unturned. He's falling deeply unconscious in his own dream of separation only to awaken time and again to the truth that even he can not permanently hide from. It's an elaborate game of hide and seek with God playing all the roles.

[Placebo23]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You cannot go beyond what?

Beyond mind of course, beyond the idea of being a seperate person.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

How is it that you know there is no sense of self? How can you be puzzled by a blank nothingness if you weren't there for the blank nothingness? This is why I say it can't be missed, and isn't missed. Here you are talking about what you missed. Did you really miss it?

At least I have no memories of it. So I cannot be sure about what is really happening in deep sleep. Perhaps it is full of bliss and peace, but for the reason that the mind is absence it is unable to form memories of it.

But let me ask you one question: How will God know himself, when he not put a mirror in front of him. As 'he' can only perceive, how will he know that he exist ? Only by putting the mirror in front of him (falling into a dream and see himself split up in seperate objects) can he know that he exist or is awareness aware of itself ?

The sense of self comes and goes with consciousness, and you know this, so you are not consciousness or that sense of self. Something remains even in deep sleep where there is no mind, and it sounds like you know this too, so what you are doesn't depend on consciousness or mind. What you are never appears, so obviously it can't disappear, and yet you are here. You know you can't identify yourself, and I think you know why. You will never become an object of your own seeing, which would place that object before you and you would have to start turning around real quick again to see who is seeing.

In the waking state my memories are full of gaps, everytime I'm falling asleep a new gap in memory is created. Of course I recognize that there was an interruption to the waking state. But this interrupt is only the gap in mind, so I can only know in the waking state of a possible non-existence in sleep.

What I want to explain with this is: I cannot see the arising of consciousness and its absence from a higher point of view, I can only recognize it from the waking state, not before the waking state.

That which watches mind can see through beliefs. It cannot conceptualize or know some knowledge to be true. It reveals the illusory nature of what mind is grasping. You can see that the idea that you are a separate volitional person is not more than an idea, and you can see this absolutely. This seeing is not subject to mind's doubt. Unless you then defer to mind's opinion on the matter, you will then know beyond belief. This is not difficult, but there must be the willingness to see. That's the challenge for most.

How does it reveal the illusory nature of what mind is grasping ? That which watches can only and will only perceive all ongoing perceptions of concepts and so on. It can only see the unrolling of the movie, nothing more. Even when there is the recognition that the mind is seen, this recognition-concept is seen in mind only. You cannot see a truly distance between you and the mind. Every distance appearing is a new concept in mind.
A thorne will be removed with a thorne.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Placebo23

How does it reveal the illusory nature of what mind is grasping ? That which watches can only and will only perceive all ongoing perceptions of concepts and so on. It can only see the unrolling of the movie, nothing more. Even when there is the recognition that the mind is seen, this recognition-concept is seen in mind only. You cannot see a truly distance between you and the mind. Every distance appearing is a new concept in mind.
A thorne will be removed with a thorne.

The movie analogy is useful, but it's more like Plato's cave. Yes, you're facing the movie screen but the projector is also in the room. When we say, 'what mind is grasping' we really mean what has captured your attention on the screen. There isn't something called mind, we mean your involvement with the movie. There is something else in the theater besides the movie. So there is the potential to metaphorically turn around and notice that the movie is a play of light being projected by the projector. To push the analogy further, you are the projector.

In as practical terms as possible, you can see that you are the one making up the ideas and then grasping them and taking them to be true. You may be inclined to dismiss this seeing as just something else appearing on the screen; more appearances in mind, but you are not limited to mind and it's appearances. You are also the source, the projector, the one imagining all these ideas into apparent existence, and this can be realized, not as another appearance on the screen, but by looking around the theater and noticing what's going on.

This noticing is quite subtle, of course. You don't actually perceive a projector, there's simply the realization that what appears on the screen has no real foundation; that in a sense, the events aren't even happening at all. This isn't the same as more knowledge appearing on the screen, it's the realization that nothing happening is actually true. It's the loss of the knowledge that something is actually happening 'out there', or that there is an 'out there'.

Some ideas, such as good and bad, are highly subjective and it's easy to see you are making them up because you identify with the subjective person who apparently personally formed those ideas, but when you stop identifying with one of the characters on the screen for a moment, you notice that you're making up all the characters, and the scenery and everything else that appears on the screen. You, however, do not appear on the screen.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The movie analogy is useful, but it's more like Plato's cave.

Yes Jed McKenna did a similar synopsis on the movie idea, simplified and updated version of Plato’s cave in one of his books.

And for those who like diagrams click here, page 12: http://www.sriramanamaharshi.org/dow...lf_enquiry.zip