The illusion

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Well you might thank me when you're facing this fear of death if for only that it gives you the slightest microscopic bit of comfort. Realistically though, it doesn't seem to matter how much warning one gets.

CG, is this the "final doorway" Hawkins talks about?

If so, I haven't been through it, yet. The worst it's been for me was my "dark night of the soul" thing, though I've wondered if they're the same thing.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

CG, is this the "final doorway" Hawkins talks about?

If so, I haven't been through it, yet. The worst it's been for me was my "dark night of the soul" thing, though I've wondered if they're the same thing.

I dunno in regards to both Hawkins or the nature of your experience. I can say though that final doorways and melodramatic tales are usually the mind spinning stories. I don't know if you've ever gone from being scared sh*tless to having a deep belly laugh in the next moment but that's probably the best way I can relate it.

[Sponge]

Oh well the scary feeling lasted all of two seconds, mind has a hold of me that's for sure. Do I just persevere?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

mind has a hold of me that's for sure.

Who's 'me'? and what do you see as 'mind'?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I dunno in regards to both Hawkins or the nature of your experience. I can say though that final doorways and melodramatic tales are usually the mind spinning stories. I don't know if you've ever gone from being scared sh*tless to having a deep belly laugh in the next moment but that's probably the best way I can relate it.

Actually, I have gone from scared sh*tless to deep belly laughter, but that was back in my drinking days

Hawkins tale doesn't seem melodramatic to me, but he does talk about living through the experience of dying, and that resonated with me deeply enough to give me the sense that I was destined, myself for such an experience. But, I always figured that if that was going to happen, it will happen when it happens, so I don't worry about. I'm nonetheless still curious about it because, well, I'm the highly curious sort.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Who's 'me'? and what do you see as 'mind'?

Aaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!
Yes. Ok very very subtle but yes...that's all I can say.

[Sponge]

I can say more now - excuse me whilst I ramble as just wanted to write this.
....almost as if my mind has two levels: 1) my chattering thoughts 2) another level that I thought was awareness but was actually more (I would say a bit crafty) mind.
I was able to see why it's not necessay to seek as it's there and understand why it's called an illusion. I 'got' that everything will carry on as before, I'll still have those 'thought' but they won't mean anything like they're happening to someone else. That it's playing out the way it has to.
But strangely I also feel that's it's not as spiritual as I believed but more scientific (weird).
I feel like I want to sit at the beach or something and be with this 'space'. Even the feeling of being scared wasn't real.
But it was like a sneak preview, as soon as it came it was gone for some reason. But enough of an insight and taste. I feel like I can't loose that now, that I know it's there.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Sponge

I can say more now - excuse me whilst I ramble as just wanted to write this.
....almost as if my mind has two levels: 1) my chattering thoughts 2) another level that I thought was awareness but was actually more (I would say a bit crafty) mind.
I was able to see why it's not necessay to seek as it's there and understand why it's called an illusion. I 'got' that everything will carry on as before, I'll still have those 'thought' but they won't mean anything like they're happening to someone else. That it's playing out the way it has to.
But strangely I also feel that's it's not as spiritual as I believed but more scientific (weird).
I feel like I want to sit at the beach or something and be with this 'space'. Even the feeling of being scared wasn't real.
But it was like a sneak preview, as soon as it came it was gone for some reason. But enough of an insight and taste. I feel like I can't loose that now, that I know it's there.

Ah, quite nice. Yes, there becomes an identification with some thoughts and not others. The ones identified with become 'you' and that 'you' may even be an identity formed that believes it is not the mind and is the watcher of the mind thereby keeping the whole illusion safely guarded. The whole thing is phony though so long as thought itself is being identified with. Thought identification gives rise to an evolving, transforming identity in which one may even see themselves advancing spiritually and eliminating their ego. Of course in this situation it is merely the movement of identification with more worldly thoughts to more spiritually oriented thoughts.

Even the mind itself is a thought. There is not actually something you can point to that is the mind nor levels of the mind. The truth is absurdly simple and to one who expects to see something complex it may seem like looking in the refrigerator for the ketchup, staring right at but not actually noticing it. The scientific nature of it is merely a very plain realization of what's actually true in a very matter of fact way. It may also become clear that much of 'spirituality' is just vivid imagination.

This realization however, at least here is a continual process of deepening. Like becoming fully immersed in ones nature. Fully immersed in the truth. In this immersion it seems to become more about the heart so to speak. It becomes clear though that the mental knots had to be undone first though before this immersion could take place.

Yes, thoughts continue to appear because you were never the author of the thoughts to begin with. However, much of the energy behind thought collapses and thoughts that kept appearing out of struggle cease. Thoughts of a functional nature never cease. The person doesn't lose the ability to go to work or solve mathematical problems or anything like that but the interest in those things may very well fall away.

Yes, in moments of clarity this space may be noticed. Although it may not seem clear where 'you' stand in relation to that space, it is seductive. It is the pull or the movement towards truth itself that you couldn't back away from even if you wanted to. Your very participation in this discussion was part of that movement and so it carries on.

[Sponge]

Thanks Chris, I certainly needed (and still need) some hand holding. You have an eloquent way about you and I am grateful for this forum and such supportive members as if I tried to talk to most people about this they'd think I was bonkers no doubt. I am sure it's just the begining but I feel lighter today.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Ah, quite nice. Yes, there becomes an identification with some thoughts and not others. The ones identified with become 'you' and that 'you' may even be an identity formed that believes it is not the mind and is the watcher of the mind thereby keeping the whole illusion safely guarded.

Wasn't this what recently happened to me in the 'What Is, Is' thread?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yes, thoughts continue to appear because you were never the author of the thoughts to begin with. However, much of the energy behind thought collapses and thoughts that kept appearing out of struggle cease. Thoughts of a functional nature never cease. The person doesn't lose the ability to go to work or solve mathematical problems or anything like that but the interest in those things may very well fall away.

Makes me realize how long it's been since I worked on a crossword puzzle. I was addicted to those things. Now? Meh.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Sponge

I can say more now - excuse me whilst I ramble as just wanted to write this.
....almost as if my mind has two levels: 1) my chattering thoughts 2) another level that I thought was awareness but was actually more (I would say a bit crafty) mind.
I was able to see why it's not necessay to seek as it's there and understand why it's called an illusion. I 'got' that everything will carry on as before, I'll still have those 'thought' but they won't mean anything like they're happening to someone else. That it's playing out the way it has to.
But strangely I also feel that's it's not as spiritual as I believed but more scientific (weird).
I feel like I want to sit at the beach or something and be with this 'space'. Even the feeling of being scared wasn't real.
But it was like a sneak preview, as soon as it came it was gone for some reason. But enough of an insight and taste. I feel like I can't loose that now, that I know it's there.

Cool. You remind me of my lady Marie. One day she sees something terrifying, and the next day she looks and sees with perfectly clarity. Always fun to talk with such folks.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Cool. You remind me of my lady Marie. One day she sees something terrifying, and the next day she looks and sees with perfectly clarity. Always fun to talk with such folks.

Lol I guess it's so different for different people. I couldn't get it from the 'what am I?' enquiry as my brain just went 'eh?'...same from awareness watching awareness, it just wouldn't work, but with your posts and then Chris' final questioning it just clicked! Albeit subtle.
I'll just sit with this for a few days and see where it goes...

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Wasn't this what recently happened to me in the 'What Is, Is' thread?

Perhaps. It is also what occurred for me as I understood conceptually for a very long time that I was not the mind while still actually being completely identified with the mind.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Perhaps. It is also what occurred for me as I understood conceptually for a very long time that I was not the mind while still actually being completely identified with the mind.

What happened to get you out of that, if I may ask?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

What happened to get you out of that, if I may ask?

As Sponge put it, things just clicked spontaneously. There was actually so much identification though that clarity would not be had without tremendous gut wrenching fear. I had to be willing to die to see what was true. Even the one who had been surrendering everything had to ultimately be surrendered. Clarity is a continual process even now though. It's like instead of moving in a linear way, there's just falling deeper and deeper into clarity and truth itself.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Cool. You remind me of my lady Marie. One day she sees something terrifying, and the next day she looks and sees with perfectly clarity. Always fun to talk with such folks.

Was she always open to discussing these topics with you?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Was she always open to discussing these topics with you?

The trust was always there, though not always the willingness to explore. She's aware of the fear arising, and seems to know when to stop the conversation. The key, perhaps, is that she never projects that fear onto me and tries to make me wrong, we just wait until there's a willingness to look. She knows it's not about believing me, and that she needs to see for herself. I dearly love that wide eyed look on her face when she 'sees'. There's a kind of indescribable 'communion' during those moments that often has us both in tears, or at least grinning like cheshire cats.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The trust was always there, though not always the willingness to explore. She's aware of the fear arising, and seems to know when to stop the conversation. The key, perhaps, is that she never projects that fear onto me and tries to make me wrong, we just wait until there's a willingness to look. She knows it's not about believing me, and that she needs to see for herself. I dearly love that wide eyed look on her face when she 'sees'. There's a kind of indescribable 'communion' during those moments that often has us both in tears, or at least grinning like cheshire cats.

Yes, I can relate to the trust without the willingness to explore. My fiance actually seems to be exploring self acceptance in her own unique way. I smile when I see that she recognizes her problems one by one are imagined. She keeps telling me that my laugh has changed and that I now laugh like scooby doo in a very light hearted manner.

Tears of joy seems to be the name of the game. I find myself tearing up at nothing more than the sheer beauty everywhere I look at times. There also seems to be a process of conditioning and suppression being released where it feels extremely cathartic.

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Clarity is a continual process even now though. It's like instead of moving in a linear way, there's just falling deeper and deeper into clarity and truth itself.

Am glad you said this.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The trust was always there, though not always the willingness to explore.

Indeed trust is our original default. A baby has nothing but trust to offer anyone at all for the first few months, perhaps years of it's life. It is trust that is our most basic core, however this trust becomes violated over and again, so effectively, in our pain we deny trust as we gradually focus upon and build walls around us of fear, denial, contempt, rejection. Ultimately these walls crowd us in until the one we distrust, reject most of all is our self.

So even though we don't recognise these dynamics, we continually work to rediscover that original trust, and that becomes an ever decreasing spiral of disillusionment until/unless we first recognise the original problem that generated our pain, being our fears and distrust. From there, we can find n effective means to correct these parameters.

Originally Posted by Arcanum

She's aware of the fear arising, and seems to know when to stop the conversation. The key, perhaps, is that she never projects that fear onto me and tries to make me wrong, we just wait until there's a willingness to look. She knows it's not about believing me, and that she needs to see for herself.

Indeed a woman well worth valuing.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yes, I can relate to the trust without the willingness to explore. My fiance actually seems to be exploring self acceptance in her own unique way. I smile when I see that she recognizes her problems one by one are imagined. She keeps telling me that my laugh has changed and that I now laugh like scooby doo in a very light hearted manner.

Tears of joy seems to be the name of the game. I find myself tearing up at nothing more than the sheer beauty everywhere I look at times. There also seems to be a process of conditioning and suppression being released where it feels extremely cathartic.

Wonderful.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Indeed trust is our original default. A baby has nothing but trust to offer anyone at all for the first few months, perhaps years of it's life. It is trust that is our most basic core, however this trust becomes violated over and again, so effectively, in our pain we deny trust as we gradually focus upon and build walls around us of fear, denial, contempt, rejection. Ultimately these walls crowd us in until the one we distrust, reject most of all is our self.

So even though we don't recognise these dynamics, we continually work to rediscover that original trust, and that becomes an ever decreasing spiral of disillusionment until/unless we first recognise the original problem that generated our pain, being our fears and distrust. From there, we can find n effective means to correct these parameters.

Indeed a woman well worth valuing.

So how would you say these parameters can be corrected?

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

So how would you say these parameters can be corrected?

Oh dear, I see not all of my post actually made it onto the thread for some reason, yet I can't seem to recognise the missing part/s. Be that as it may....

The answer to your question is to be found in what I've been trying to explore on this forum in the dual objective/subjective perceptions we all have. BTW I hadn't so much as made the connection with regards these two when I first joined this site. It was only just prior to the mod splitting another and starting the 'Subjective vs Objective Reality' thread, that I realised the relevance.

In any case, the way I see it is when a baby is newly born, his perspective is (almost) completely objective and therefore trust is the virtual world in which he exists. He trusts all the big humans around him, and as a result of their tender attention to his needs, his trust is reflected back towards a trust in himself. So at this stage of his life, whilst all his objective attention is outward, the possibilities ahead of him are limitless.

Even so, there is a hidden loaded dynamic in this relationship, for his sense of self worth, his trust in himself is dependent upon the outside universe, and when that universe violates his trust as it will, his objectivity incrementally morphs towards subjectivity. His focus will gradually turn inwards, his thoughts and choices will become more emotions controlled. His fear of 'out there' will grow and distrust will replace trust, and the possibilities available to his future, will diminish.

Now since this evolving dynamic is based upon his sense of self worth being dependent upon the value of others, and the level of trust being reflected back to him, he will gradually come to the conclusion that his trust in others is his biggest problem. Yet at the same time, to get along in this world, he's still required to display trust. So trust morphs into a tradable commodity of deception, an extremely poor substitute for the authentic original he once enjoyed.

The longer this goes on and the more extreme it becomes, the more subjective will be his view of reality. And the less trust he will have in his decisions and himself. Trust will be replaced with a level of loathing or worse. He can even reach a place where he reasons the biggest problem the world has, is his own existence. I've been right here myself.

So to finally respond your query; the short answer is he needs to find a systemic methodology to focus incrementally upon a more objective perspective, to develop on outward focus rather than inward. In effect he needs to cease relating to everything that eventuates around him and even to him personally, as being 'about me', which in turn will again afford him licence to descend into that subjective black hole of blame, rejection and distrust, indeed ultimately in himself.

To emerge from this long-standing black hole will clearly take time, patience, and a steadily evolving understanding. In the end, he will be able to say, as I do - "I'm so thankful for all those deep, dark, depressing, emotional, subjective times I've been through, for such experiences define the immense value in an objective perspective, and the trust in me I now enjoy".

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

So to finally respond your query; the short answer is he needs to find a systemic methodology to focus incrementally upon a more objective perspective, to develop on outward focus rather than inward. In effect he needs to cease relating to everything that eventuates around him and even to him personally, as being 'about me', which in turn will again afford him licence to descend into that subjective black hole of blame, rejection and distrust, indeed ultimately in himself.

I would think that he just needed a little Love.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I would think that he just needed a little Love.

Well my friend, I believe you would be so incredibly poignant right there. And this is precisely what this entire point is founded upon.

We misunderstand what love is, and therefore expect, demand it from 'out there', yet the ONLY authentic source of love comes from within. For love is our most basic essence, and from an objective perspective MUST flow outwards. Once an expectation enters our default reasoning for it to be a flow inwards (towards 'me') from another, then we have again descended into a mindset per subjectivity.

You can witness this default dynamic all around, especially when people face the law courts for their actions according their demanding love in some form or other - the way they relate to the term, at least.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well my friend, I believe you would be so incredibly poignant right there. And this is precisely what this entire point is founded upon.

We misunderstand what love is, and therefore expect, demand it from 'out there', yet the ONLY authentic source of love comes from within. For love is our most basic essence, and from an objective perspective MUST flow outwards. Once an expectation enters our default reasoning for it to be a flow inwards (towards 'me') from another, then we have again descended into a mindset per subjectivity.

You can witness this default dynamic all around, especially when people face the law courts for their actions according their demanding love in some form or other - the way they relate to the term, at least.

I'm likely to agree with you, Reject, but I was talking about your hypothetical infant.

Try explaining to an infant that love comes from within. Go on. I dare you

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I'm likely to agree with you, Reject, but I was talking about your hypothetical infant.

Try explaining to an infant that love comes from within. Go on. I dare you

Well I wasn't sure, but my expectation was a referencing of the subjective adult in pain.

As for explaining all this love thing to an infant, well I'm not sure he would understand my words, no matter how carefully I chose them, huh? In any case, he wouldn't need it explained, for he exists in a universe that is by it's very nature love - for a time, at least.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

As for explaining all this love thing to an infant, well I'm not sure he would understand my words, no matter how carefully I chose them, huh? In any case, he wouldn't need it explained, for he exists in a universe that is by it's very nature love - for a time, at least.

Not gonna disagree there. Seems to me that such a universe is what we as adults need to get back to.

[Sponge]

Slightly off topic but I was hoping Reefs would reply only to just discover he was banned!!! No way!!!
Just for the record wanted to state here that he was instrumental in my interest in non-duality. I didn't always like some of his responses but the majority were vital for me to ask questions and find out more. Anyway I feel a bit of a loss there so that's why I wanted to mention it here and thank him (even though he can't obviously read this).