Predestined, co-create, or free choice???

[Pupil]

Hello All, I am new to this forum, but I was hoping you all can help me out. I'm not sure if the title of this thread is even proper, but anyways my question is this.... My mother and I continue to have the debate if everything in life happens for a reason or if we have free choice to create at each moment. Well, I know we have free choice, but I am sooo confused when people say everything happens for a reason. I don't get how everything happens for a reason if we can ultimately control our outcome to some degree. For an example, if I choose to jump off the bridge, then die, that is my free choice to have jumped, but Gods choice to allow me to die, so how possibly could that be happening for a reason? Or was that already predestined to happen? Because God knows all? If the Universe, God, or however you refer to Him...is actually in control of 90% of our outcomes how do we actually have free choice? Or I hear people say the blueprint has already been lead out for us... or we are timeless beings and everything that is suppose to occur has already occurred... then how are we co-creating anything? As you can see I am lost. Hope I did not confuse anyone. Please help me clarify this? Thanks

[Luciddd]

I think all 3 of them are involved to an extent.

We are "predestined" by our past actions in this level or others, through hard earthly work we have a "free choice" of breaking out of a scenario and going into a different route, and then sometimes we just tap into our inner capabilities and we "co-create".

Is it possible to outright take away 1 or 2 and become a totally predestined, free willed or creative person? This would be the interesting question.

[renew]

I believe everything happens for a reason. Every choice you make is for a reason(maybe subconcious), leading up to what you are predestined to do or be in life. It can be pretty complex, but ultimately there is a reason behind everything. Sometimes it can be for us to grow and learn from a "free" choice we've made. Does that make sense?

[zeitgeist]

Big questions my friend. A lot of what happens in our lives is subconscious. Perhaps one way to illustrate this is if you struggle with some form of addiction. You will find that despite your best intentions - during your saner hours - some sort of a robot is taking over. But with incredible willpower and with a lot of love from your environment, you can break yourself free. It is only then that you understand that you can live in freedom, away from these mechanic reactions.

Being a Tao master, that is someone who has broken free completely from the urges of the I, is your journey into freedom. Unfortunately it takes a while, but it is also a lot of fun. Only then becomes God, the Force behind everything, really visible to you. Before you were just a pawn in the devine play of Maya.

Hope this helps,

Zeitgeist

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Pupil

Hello All, I am new to this forum, but I was hoping you all can help me out. I'm not sure if the title of this thread is even asked properly, but anyways. My mother and I continue to have the debate if everything in life happens for a reason or if we have free choice to create at each moment. Well, I know we have free choice, but I am sooo confused when people say everything happens for a reason. I don't get how everything happens for a reason if we can ultimately control our outcome to some degree. For an example, if I choose to jump off the bridge, then die, that is my free choice to have jump, but Gods choice to allow me to die, so how possibly could that be happening for a reason? Or was that already predestined to happen? Because God knows all? If the Universe, God, or however you refer to Him...is actually in control of 90% of our outcomes how do we actually have free choice? Or I hear people say the blueprint has already been lead out for us... or we are timeless beings and everything that is suppose to occur has already occurred... then how are we co-creating anything? As you can see I am lost. Hope I did not confuse anyone. Please help me clarify this? Thanks

Which is more empowering do you think? There is no predestination if that is what you are asking. There are simply the motivations inherent within you, and that momentum has a predictable trajectory which outlines the probability of a future occurrence.

What is meaning anyhow? What makes something meaningful? It is subjective, you see. You makes things meaningful based on your desire surrounding them. The things you appreciate are meaningful to you.

I dropped something a minute ago -- it fell to the ground. It happened for a reason, but a seemingly menial one. I didn't grip it hard enough, and gravity pulled it to the floor. There is cause and effect. You are both cause and effect. There are forces which you have conscious control of and there are forces you do not have conscious control of. We are influencers and we are also influenced.

The reasons why things happen occur at multiple levels of our being. You are responsible for the choices you consciously make.

From my perspective, we are here in this environment to experience growth. In general, the things that happen are there to cause us to grow more. If you choose to jump off a bridge, and die, or live, that is an experience that you will learn something from whether that was your intention or not. All of it expands your real spiritual nature. Both the desirable and undesirable cause expansion. All experiences more clearly define and refine this knowingness. It's not that there are set lessons to learn, it is just that the more experiences you have the more broad this knowingness becomes defined as a natural result.

But you are not a puppet, in my humble opinion.

[QuakerOats]

Originally Posted by zeitgeist

Big questions my friend. A lot of what happens in our lives is subconscious. Perhaps one way to illustrate this is if you struggle with some form of addiction. You will find that despite your best intentions - during your saner hours - some sort of a robot is taking over. But with incredible willpower and with a lot of love from your environment, you can break yourself free. It is only then that you understand that you can live in freedom, away from these mechanic reactions.

Being a Tao master, that is someone who has broken free completely from the urges of the I, is your journey into freedom. Unfortunately it takes a while, but it is also a lot of fun. Only then becomes God, the Force behind everything, really visible to you. Before you were just a pawn in the devine play of Maya.

Hope this helps,

Zeitgeist

what is the devine play of Maya? never heard of such a thing.

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by QuakerOats

what is the devine play of Maya? never heard of such a thing.

When you look at your body for example, what exactly do you see? Modern science would say that once you go into the atomic structure of your body there is nothing but empty space held together by some magnetic force. Yet we humans create our world of symbols visually. The Hindu call this Maya, the cosmic dance of Shiva which is nothing but a movie plot created for you. And once you 'wake up' all this collapses into nothingness.

Hope this made some sense to you. All the best,

Zeitgeist

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Pupil

Hello All, I am new to this forum, but I was hoping you all can help me out. I'm not sure if the title of this thread is even proper, but anyways my question is this.... My mother and I continue to have the debate if everything in life happens for a reason or if we have free choice to create at each moment. Well, I know we have free choice, but I am sooo confused when people say everything happens for a reason. I don't get how everything happens for a reason if we can ultimately control our outcome to some degree. For an example, if I choose to jump off the bridge, then die, that is my free choice to have jumped, but Gods choice to allow me to die, so how possibly could that be happening for a reason?

If your choice is to jump off a bridge, there was a culmination of factors making this event come about, including all the thinking or emotions behind it all.

Or was that already predestined to happen? Because God knows all? If the Universe, God, or however you refer to Him...is actually in control of 90% of our outcomes how do we actually have free choice? Or I hear people say the blueprint has already been lead out for us... or we are timeless beings and everything that is suppose to occur has already occurred... then how are we co-creating anything?

you have to pick a view point but not mix them. on one grand scheme of things there is only now and nothing really happens and nothing is happening in some sort of sequence of causes and effects. It is only now and nothing else. But from a viewpoint within time that we have, it seems like events are going on.

what we create, perhaps is the viewpoint.

what we think we have control over is only part of our conditioning. we learned a belief in that. that we can decide what to have for breakfast. and it feels like we choose all sorts of things.

if you really look at your choices you will notice you make the best one you can based on all the info you have.

where did all the info come from? your path in time, or your viewpoint of now. you were influenced and choose what makes sense to do so.

is that really free will? or influenced actions based on what you gathered about life so far?

how can you possibly choose something that is not based on influences?

As you can see I am lost. Hope I did not confuse anyone. Please help me clarify this? Thanks

ok probably not too clarifying.

[abcbac]

People that say "everything happens for as reason" want to find some type of consolation or reassurance from whatever happened in their lives. If someone loses a loved on, they will say stuff like that so they can receive satisfaction in that they know why it happened . But I don't think it works like that. It is up to us to create our own destiny without thinking that something in the sky telling you what to do. Humans need a justification for anything and they will go great lengths to do so.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by abcbac

People that say "everything happens for as reason" want to find some type of consolation or reassurance from whatever happened in their lives. If someone loses a loved on, they will say stuff like that so they can receive satisfaction in that they know why it happened . But I don't think it works like that. It is up to us to create our own destiny

What kind of destiny are you going to create?

What makes your particular version of life goals be what they are?

without thinking that something in the sky telling you what to do. Humans need a justification for anything and they will go great lengths to do so.

it's not something else in the sky. it's all your thinking, what you have gathered along the way. who you listened to. what you parents said to you. what society says is good. and all your reactions to all that are motivated choices that at a particular instance gave rise to a conclusion that you will believe something to either get something or avoid something that you learned would be good to have.

[abcbac]

Wolfgang: I totally agree with you. What you have picked along in life makes a huge impact on your choice. The unconscious affects greatly in decision making. But that doesn't constitute life as pre-determined if that is what you are getting at

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by abcbac

Wolfgang: I totally agree with you. What you have picked along in life makes a huge impact on your choice. The unconscious affects greatly in decision making. But that doesn't constitute life as pre-determined if that is what you are getting at

yeah probably not...

[zeitgeist]

Originally Posted by abcbac

People that say "everything happens for as reason" want to find some type of consolation or reassurance from whatever happened in their lives. If someone loses a loved on, they will say stuff like that so they can receive satisfaction in that they know why it happened . But I don't think it works like that. It is up to us to create our own destiny without thinking that something in the sky telling you what to do. Humans need a justification for anything and they will go great lengths to do so.

Life is a multiple equilibrium happens to be my conjecture. If you say that the universe is totally random it will be so. If you say that everything in this universe has meaning, even the lower left article on page 4 of the NY Times that was already published before I wrote this, it will be so as well. The latter theory you can only prove to yourself if you make the Tao or God your mission statement in life. But you will know in the end.

[Pupil]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Which is more empowering do you think? There is no predestination if that is what you are asking. There are simply the motivations inherent within you, and that momentum has a predictable trajectory which outlines the probability of a future occurrence.

What is meaning anyhow? What makes something meaningful? It is subjective, you see. You makes things meaningful based on your desire surrounding them. The things you appreciate are meaningful to you.

I dropped something a minute ago -- it fell to the ground. It happened for a reason, but a seemingly menial one. I didn't grip it hard enough, and gravity pulled it to the floor. There is cause and effect. You are both cause and effect. There are forces which you have conscious control of and there are forces you do not have conscious control of. We are influencers and we are also influenced.

The reasons why things happen occur at multiple levels of our being. You are responsible for the choices you consciously make.

From my perspective, we are here in this environment to experience growth. In general, the things that happen are there to cause us to grow more. If you choose to jump off a bridge, and die, or live, that is an experience that you will learn something from whether that was your intention or not. All of it expands your real spiritual nature. Both the desirable and undesirable cause expansion. All experiences more clearly define and refine this knowingness. It's not that there are set lessons to learn, it is just that the more experiences you have the more broad this knowingness becomes defined as a natural result.

But you are not a puppet, in my humble opinion.

Thanks! I am still a little confused, but what you said has definitely clarifield it a lot more. So we do have a choice, but the outcome is not up to us which means, life is not predestined but we are, I guess, co-creators so to speak? I think I got that!!