How do you Define Spirituality??

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

How do I know? I detected the insincerity in your question, and you verified that when you said you have no interest in what you asked about:



You like to get into trouble, especially with me it seems. Sometimes it helps you. It's okay, I don't mind playing that game. As long as the mods let us play, I'll probly stay and play with you.

My judgement of beliefs is very different from judging you personally and should not be taken personally.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Those who believe they know will always point the finger at those who don't and make us into the problem as they have with you in this thread, and now with me also. It's a good game, no?

There's merely a discussion happening. I haven't for a moment thought of you as a problem but alas we must do that dance anyway.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yes, there's clearly much more willingness to hear what's being said on your part. That's a good thing whether you think it's all BS or not. It's a shame we have to pretend we're all battling each other for a few weeks/months but hey it's kind of like being an actor in a play.

It's very odd, really, to do battle with one's own Self, but I find as long as there is Love, even that absurdity can be productive.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Is that a joke? How can anything be said without conceptualizing?

But you can't conceptualize it, can you? So what's the point?

Huh? Yes, I know. What was your point? Is your point that my judgments are wrong and yours are right?

My point is, you are in no position to pass judgement on me or anyone else. Beliefs are fair game!

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

There's merely a discussion happening. I haven't for a moment thought of you as a problem but alas we must do that dance anyway.

Originally Posted by Maguru

Those who believe they know will always point the finger at those who don't and make us into the problem as they have with you in this thread, and now with me also. It's a good game, no?

Was I referring to you?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

My judgement of beliefs is very different from judging you personally and should not be taken personally.

Nothing is taken or given personally.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Nothing is taken or given personally.

You pass personal remarks all the time. Why do you justify it or deny it?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

But you can't conceptualize it, can you? So what's the point?

The point is for you to look and potentially see, and yet you have no such interest, so there is point in talking about Truth with you, so here we are talking about ego.

My point is, you are in no position to pass judgement on me or anyone else. Beliefs are fair game!

I've never judged you, Ma. I'm pretty sure we've had that conversation before. You judge yourself, and you are quite brutal about it sometimes.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

You pass personal remarks all the time. Why do you justify it or deny it?

Yes, I do. There's no blame, no value judgment involved. That's something you're doing to yourself. That's what we're exploring.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Was I referring to you?

Oops, that was my mistake. In any case, I meant what I said.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I didn't say that anyone "needed to be convinced of who they are," but rather suggested that one needs to realize that they already and simply are.

Yes, sometimes I think people interpret 'truth is already the case' to be metaphorical or a whimsical notion that isn't quite true realistically. I mean it as seriously and soberly as one can mean something. There's no cave to run off to, no Indiana Jones adventure you need to embark on, no complicated new theology to adopt. Tire yourself out with practice, pick imaginary battles for as long as you need at your own peril. But the truth/who you are will be there the whole time just waiting for the silly act to stop. The question all along has merely been, are you ready to drop the act? Every moment begs this question and somewhere deep inside everyone, it can be felt. Will you become catatonic, disconnected with the world, able only to sit in a cave all day? Let these questions come and go. It's like walking through a haunted house with silly characters trying to scare you with corny stories of everything falling apart.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

The point is for you to look and potentially see, and yet you have no such interest, so there is point in talking about Truth with you, so here we are talking about ego.
I've never judged you, Ma. I'm pretty sure we've had that conversation before. You judge yourself, and you are quite brutal about it sometimes.

So because I point out that you are judging me even with the best of intentions, I must be judging myself. I'm pointing out surface behaviour, not something deep and demonic. It is written in words we can see. Have a LOOK!

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

So because I point out that you are judging me even with the best of intentions, I must be judging myself.

No, you judge yourself when you see blame coming from me. When you see me making you wrong, this is you making yourself wrong.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Oops, that was my mistake. In any case, I meant what I said.

Yes I know, even when you have jumped to conclusions.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It's very odd, really, to do battle with one's own Self, but I find as long as there is Love, even that absurdity can be productive.

Yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, I see even the illusory battles as a way for folks to build up their confidence so they feel worthy to eventually take a look. There has to be some sense of practice. Some struggle to make it seem like 'Okay, I fought with this Arcanum dude for 4 months over God knows what. I think I'll take a look now, I've earned it'.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes I know, even when you have jumped to conclusions.

Yes, I'm a conclusion jumping machine. Is this what you want to discuss?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yeah, as I mentioned in another thread, I see even the illusory battles as a way for folks to build up their confidence so they feel worthy to eventually take a look. There has to be some sense of practice. Some struggle to make it seem like 'Okay, I fought with this Arcanum dude for 4 months over God knows what. I think I'll take a look now, I've earned it'.

HA! Yes, after defeating demon Arcanum, surely the way is clear now and God's Grace will shine on me. If that would work, I'd be pleased as punch to be the defeated one.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

No, you judge yourself when you see blame coming from me. When you see me making you wrong, this is you making yourself wrong.

Arcanum,
If I don't see you making me wrong, what then?

You have mentioned before how I, and others, try to make you wrong. I have never thought that of you, so where do you get these impressions from?

[Arcanum]

Maguru to Chris:

I had hoped for the simple truth as you know it but you are saying that because of my 'faults' I would not see it. I feel I'm being shown the Emperor's New Clothes.

Maguru:

Those who believe they know will always point the finger at those who don't and make us into the problem as they have with you in this thread, and now with me also. It's a good game, no?

Chris:

There's merely a discussion happening. I haven't for a moment thought of you as a problem but alas we must do that dance anyway.

Maguru:

Was I referring to you?

Yes, akchuly, it seems you were.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Arcanum,
If I don't see you making me wrong, what then?

You have mentioned before how I, and others, try to make you wrong. I have never thought that of you, so where do you get these impressions from?

I didn't say anything about you making me wrong in that post, so where do you get these impressions from? (It's an important question, akchooly)

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I didn't say anything about you making me wrong, so where do you get these impressions from? (It's an important question, akchooly)

You have mentioned it before and I was showing you the mirror. I never thought you were making me wrong. All these notions are yours and have nothing to do with me. I'm not the one who comes up with these ideas of battles, demons, dances, fighting with Arcanum, being defeated etc. etc. I had no idea this was the game you were playing. Do you think I am fighting you? Have you been trying to defeat me? Be honest.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Maguru to Chris:


Maguru:


Chris:

Maguru:

Yes, akchuly, it seems you were.

He recognized himself somewhere in there but I mentioned no-one in particular. He did own the fact that he had jumped to conclusions so why the need to jump to his defense?

[inri]

Originally Posted by Maguru

There you go again. How the hell could you glean all that from my question, which was in response to Chris's post? What's it to you why I'm here discussing it? Oh rhetorical question. You do that all the time and you are so far from the truth. I'll say it once. I have never come on here with the intention or motive of making anyone wrong! I express myself as you do. I don't believe you come with a hidden agenda either but then I see you as my equal. Pity it's not reciprocated.

Yes, Paula, I very much understand what you're saying here, as I'm sure you're aware of, I also often get accused by Arcanum as being 'insincere' when responding to his posts.

When The fact is, we are not 'trying to make him wrong' as he suggests, but instead we are attempting to point out to him that he is engaging in the very same faulty, personal perceptions (looking at a rope and seeing a snake) that he points out in others.

I find it incredibly telling that when he points to the delusions of others he sees himself as being a 'teacher,' yet, when others attempt to point out HIS faulty perceptions, we are attempting to make him 'wrong' and thus, we are being 'insincere'.

Like you, I find it quite stunning that someone would perceive me as being 'insincere' while engaging in these conversations.....I rather feel that I approach these conversations with the utmost of sincerity.

I can certainly say as well that I've never perceived 'game playing' in any of YOUR postings here...in fact, it's always been your uncommon level of sincerity that appeals so much to me.

[Frisky]

Thanks guys, for hijacking my thread with all your squabbling

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

He recognized himself somewhere in there but I mentioned no-one in particular. He did own the fact that he had jumped to conclusions so why the need to jump to his defense?

He doesn't need any defense. I'm suggesting you took the opportunity to make him wrong and then continued to poke him about it even though it appears he was right. It's just contradiction for the sake of argument. Now you want to make it appear that I had a need to 'jump to his defense'. There's a lot of demon creating going on.

[inri]

Originally Posted by Frisky

Thanks guys, for hijacking my thread with all your squabbling

Actually Frisky, I don't think the line of dialogue is off topic at all.

For many it seems, the idea of 'spirituality' involves a delving within...an inquiry into mind and self to honestly assess and question all that we hold to be 'true' about self and reality.

Some it seems are very adept at spotting delusion in others and there is no doubt that if/when one is stuck, this can indeed be a helpful 'spiritual' offering. (I see 'awareness' at the helm of my own definition of what it means to be 'spiritual.')

However, if that ability for assessment only extends outwards to 'others' in my reality and continues to remain limited in terms of my own delving into the recesses of MY mind, then surely In terms of actually 'being' spiritual, I've come up a tad short....?

[inri]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

I'm suggesting you took the opportunity to make him wrong and then continued to poke him about it even though it appears he was right.

And...what is behind the urge that obviously arose within YOU to 'suggest' THIS...?

could it be;

It's just contradiction for the sake of argument.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by inri

Yes, Paula, I very much understand what you're saying here, as I'm sure you're aware of, I also often get accused by Arcanum as being 'insincere' when responding to his posts.

When The fact is, we are not 'trying to make him wrong' as he suggests, but instead we are attempting to point out to him that he is engaging in the very same faulty, personal perceptions (looking at a rope and seeing a snake) that he points out in others.

I find it incredibly telling that when he points to the delusions of others he sees himself as being a 'teacher,' yet, when others attempt to point out HIS faulty perceptions, we are attempting to make him 'wrong' and thus, we are being 'insincere'.

Like you, I find it quite stunning that someone would perceive me as being 'insincere' while engaging in these conversations.....I rather feel that I approach these conversations with the utmost of sincerity.

I can certainly say as well that I've never perceived 'game playing' in any of YOUR postings here...in fact, it's always been your uncommon level of sincerity that appeals so much to me.

Yes, the motivations are unconscious, which is why they're being pointed out. It wouldn't really make any sense to point out something that you're already aware of.

[inri]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yes, the motivations are unconscious, which is why they're being pointed out. It wouldn't really make any sense to point out something that you're already aware of.

And you know this with absolute certainty, how?

Can you see that if you are seeing certain unconscious motivations on the part of another, that you are engaging your own thoughts/beliefs, machinations of mind in order to arrive at the assessment...and as such, you 'could' be wrong?

Can you see that to some of us it also appears as though YOU still remain unconscious to some extent...can you even consider the possibility that this might actually be so?

How it is that all of us consider ourselves to be seeing with a certain amount of clarity but only YOU are REALLY seeing with clarity?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by inri

And...what is behind the urge that obviously arose within YOU to 'suggest' THIS...?

could it be;

Look at the conversation yourself, without your need to make me wrong for calling you insincere months ago, and you'll see what's actually happening. As you imply, a great deal of our spiritual work is about becoming conscious, and this work can't be bypassed.