How do you Define Spirituality??

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Because almost everyone in the world equates 'getting it' with coming to a conceptual conclusion.

Have you ever tried to find something in the fridge you've seen thousands of times and for the life of you couldn't see it even though it was right in front of you? And then someone walks over and points right to it? Not one complex thing about it. Having the person convince you conceptually that it's there in the fridge doesn't do you one bit of good. You have to actually look and usually in a different way and with a different attitude in this case.

So I need to look for myself and stop conceptualizing because it's right under my nose and also change my attitude to see the simple truth?

If you know the simple truth and the truth is simple, why do 'we' not get it?

I had hoped for the simple truth as you know it but you are saying that because of my 'faults' I would not see it. I feel I'm being shown the Emperor's New Clothes.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Beingist

You know, this is so unbelievably weird, but, as one can see in the "What Is, Is" thread, I used to think about Arcanum, myself, as judgmental, however subtle his judgments may have appeared to me (thus my reaction evident in the thread). But, since going through this latest shift, I can see more clearly now, that he is simply more one to cut to the quick, and in our inflated view of ourselves, we react. He's not judging, but as he's said a number of times (even while I was reacting, myself), he's only offering his perspective.

That said, and at risk of you, Maguru, reacting, I can understand exactly what Arcanum's getting at, and it's not that he thinks you're 'at fault' in any way. Rather, it's likely you who think that of yourself, for not 'getting it'. But you'll 'get it'. Of that, I'm fairly confident. But be advised that 'getting it', or at least the process of it, isn't all rainbows and unicorns.

So I don't get it because I want it to fit into a concept when the only way to know this simple truth is to see for myself? Also my question is not sincere because I wish to dismiss the possibility of this simple truth?

You missed my point. This is arcanum's judgement in his words, not mine. This is his perception of me and until that perception is removed then we will never cross this barrier.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Indeed, it's a heart thing, not a mind thing.

If I may ask a question with THAT horrid term in it - how do you define this 'heart thing' to which you refer?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Actually, it's more like trying to convince you that You already simply ARE,

Why would anyone need to be convinced of who they are and why would someone else want to convince me of who I am? It's obvious you are pointing to 'something other' than who we actually are and that's my point. This 'something other' does not live up to the reality of who we are.

Indeed, it's a heart thing, not a mind thing.

Do you really think that by believing we are not who we think we are but are something 'other than' is of any significance?

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I feel I'm being shown the Emperor's New Clothes.

Well, I can't imagine why, yet right now I'd like to give you a huge hug. Consider yourself fortunate to not be within reach.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Do you really think that by believing we are not who we think we are but are something 'other than' is of any significance?

Well it really does, and for a great many reasons. Most of us live out our lives harbouring all kinds of illusions about ourselves. Therefore our enormous appetite for fantasy - to distract our attention from the ever growing inconsistencies in ourselves and the way we relate to the world. Psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, counsellors make millions out of all this confusion wrought through a gross perplexity of misunderstandings with which we all need to deal.

This dynamic in each of us creates a great many problems, arguments, wars, destruction, pain, distress, isolation and the list of ailments can go on forever.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well, I can't imagine why, yet right now I'd like to give you a huge hug. Consider yourself fortunate to not be within reach.

You must have known I needed one.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well it really does, and for a great many reasons. Most of us live out our lives harbouring all kinds of illusions about ourselves. Therefore our enormous appetite for fantasy - to distract our attention from the ever growing inconsistencies in ourselves and the way we relate to the world. Psychologists, psychiatrists, therapists, counsellors make millions out of all this confusion wrought through a gross perplexity of misunderstandings with which we all need to deal.

This dynamic in each of us creates a great many problems, arguments, wars, destruction, pain, distress, isolation and the list of ailments can go on forever.

Yes, this is reality but none of it depends on believing in something 'other' than self, be it god or infinite being, or consciousness or whatever. Quite the contrary I would think. It's a belief in self and not belief in some airy fairy.

My point was on the existence of something 'other' than who we actually are. This "simple truth' of there being 'another' self is non-acceptance. Most will turn away from this judgement and some will rebel and some will see the Emperor's New Clothes.

Those who believe they know will always point the finger at those who don't and make us into the problem as they have with you in this thread, and now with me also. It's a good game, no?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Maguru

You missed my point. This is arcanum's judgement in his words, not mine. This is his perception of me and until that perception is removed then we will never cross this barrier.

No, I see what's happening, I think. But, I can say no more. This one's your battle (mine was in the 'What Is' thread), and me meddling isn't likely to help.

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

If I may ask a question with THAT horrid term in it - how do you define this 'heart thing' to which you refer?

I think I'm about close to vowing not to define anything, anymore. Take it as you will, AR.

Originally Posted by Maguru

Why would anyone need to be convinced of who they are and why would someone else want to convince me of who I am?

I didn't say that anyone "needed to be convinced of who they are," but rather suggested that one needs to realize that they already and simply are. CG has been alluding to this also, with his analogy of not finding the ketchup in the refrigerator, even though it's right in front of you.

It's obvious you are pointing to 'something other' than who we actually are and that's my point. This 'something other' does not live up to the reality of who we are.

I'm going to respond to this simply, and then leave it alone. Either you'll understand it, or you won't, but I can't understand it for you.

I AM.

Do you really think that by believing we are not who we think we are but are something 'other than' is of any significance?

It's not a matter of belief, but rather acceptance that you are not what you think you are. You begin to accept through the realization that you just are. And yes, I'd say it's of utmost significance. For me, it's what spirituality is all about (not to say anything relevant to the thread topic, or anything ).

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I think I'm about close to vowing not to define anything, anymore. Take it as you will, AR.

I can appreciate how you feel, but again I keep hearing expressions such as "It's a heart thing, not a mind thing.", and am left wondering what the heck does that mean? Yet more importantly; does the purveyor of these warm, comfy feel-good words have any idea of what they are saying?

I mean, are you suggesting that we need to make our heart - that physical blood-pumping organ in our chest appreciate your ethereal conceptions? Is that the trick to which you're referencing?

Or perhaps we may do a little better to now - get real???

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

So I don't get it because I want it to fit into a concept when the only way to know this simple truth is to see for myself? Also my question is not sincere because I wish to dismiss the possibility of this simple truth?

It was a simple question and your answer is 'we don't get it' because we are at fault in some way. How does that help to see the simple truth?

No, my answer was "Because it's not to be found in the concepts."

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Beingist

No, I see what's happening, I think. But, I can say no more. This one's your battle (mine was in the 'What Is' thread), and me meddling isn't likely to help.
I think I'm about close to vowing not to define anything, anymore. Take it as you will, AR.
I didn't say that anyone "needed to be convinced of who they are," but rather suggested that one needs to realize that they already and simply are. CG has been alluding to this also, with his analogy of not finding the ketchup in the refrigerator, even though it's right in front of you.
I'm going to respond to this simply, and then leave it alone. Either you'll understand it, or you won't, but I can't understand it for you.

I AM.
It's not a matter of belief, but rather acceptance that you are not what you think you are.

You just think you are not who you think you are so you must think you are other than who you are which is the great I AM. Halleluya brothers. I can see the ermine on the cloak.

You begin to accept through the realization that you just are. And yes, I'd say it's of utmost significance. For me, it's what spirituality is all about (not to say anything relevant to the thread topic, or anything ).

Yes, you have all said in no uncertain terms that those who 'don't get it' are at fault in some way. I get it though I disagree. However, they are your beliefs and the onus is on you to be understood, not on me to understand it. I am truly apathetic to these beliefs. I consider them pie in the sky, spiritual escapism, fear of reality and I can understand that.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

You know, this is so unbelievably weird, but, as one can see in the "What Is, Is" thread, I used to think about Arcanum, myself, as judgmental, however subtle his judgments may have appeared to me (thus my reaction evident in the thread). But, since going through this latest shift, I can see more clearly now, that he is simply more one to cut to the quick, and in our inflated view of ourselves, we react. He's not judging, but as he's said a number of times (even while I was reacting, myself), he's only offering his perspective.

That said, and at risk of you, Maguru, reacting, I can understand exactly what Arcanum's getting at, and it's not that he thinks you're 'at fault' in any way. Rather, it's likely you who think that of yourself, for not 'getting it'. But you'll 'get it'. Of that, I'm fairly confident. But be advised that 'getting it', or at least the process of it, isn't all rainbows and unicorns.

Thanks, B. I'd say that's right on.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

No, my answer was "Because it's not to be found in the concepts."

Originally Posted by Arcanum
Because it's not to be found in the concepts. You have to see for yourself. This has been said many, many times. I don't even think your question is sincere. I think it's your way of dismissing the possibility.

oh yeh.


You guys have conceptualized yourselves into a corner and every time it comes down to the nitty gritty of reality, you shift the focus onto the ones who 'don't get it'. Doesn't that ring a bell at all?

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes, this is reality but none of it depends on believing in something 'other' than self, be it god or infinite being, or consciousness or whatever. Quite the contrary I would think. It's a belief in self and not belief in some airy fairy.

You are saying the same thing - almost. To believe in 'self' with any authenticity, any clarity, we really need to appreciate that 'self', and that requires a very painful stripping away of all the facades we've placed over 'self' through the years.

I like to look at it this way; when we were first born, we were simply 'me/self', yet much pain, fear, distress, desires to 'fit in', losses etc. later, we've lost that 'self' somewhere deep inside the 'self' that we present at any time to ourselves at first, then the world around. This is a very convincing facade we've place over 'self' of late, yet it effectively cover the previous and thhat one, the previous.

So to just be 'self', we really need to strip away all these facades until the actual, authentic 'self' - the newborn baby 'self' is exposed. Any other way of relating to 'self' is a fabrication. Yet the process of stripping away all these facades is an extremely painful one, so most try the short-cut route and therefore delude themselves and preach to others with empty slogans like 'it's a heart thing' or 'you either get it or you don't". Why? Because they have no idea how to explain it. Why? Because they merely believe in their own delusion and have no way of explaining it, or more specifically admitting it.

Originally Posted by Maguru

My point was on the existence of something 'other' than who we actually are. This "simple truth' of there being 'another' self is non-acceptance. Most will turn away from this judgement and some will rebel and some will see the Emperor's New Clothes.

Those who believe they know will always point the finger at those who don't and make us into the problem as they have with you in this thread, and now with me also. It's a good game, no?

I'm used to it. Water off a duck's back. But you know what? They can't begin to see the dynamics of the game they play. It's incredibly narcissistic with quite a twist of sublimation.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Those who believe they know will always point the finger at those who don't and make us into the problem as they have with you in this thread, and now with me also. It's a good game, no?

Well, in a way we all do that as we disagree in these discussions, as you're doing now. You're making it the fault of others with their judgments and 'Emperors New Clothes" and making others wrong and such.

It seems like you're being a bit over sensitive, which I guess you'll see as a horrible judgment that I'll have to make right before we can ever get past it.

You ask why what some of us are pointing to can't be seen by you if it's so simple, and we say because it can't be conveyed conceptually in spite of it's simplicity. This is the truth, it's not an accusing waggling finger pointing at your nose. It's the problem spiritual seekers have had to deal with for thousands of years. Why would you take it as a blame game?

I (gently, I thought) tried to offer an explanation to Spongebob as to why there seems to be a communications barrier between himself and some of us. If I'm right, there's the possibility of improving this communication, and that's why it was mentioned. I didn't say it to sneer and point and spit and play games.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

You are saying the same thing - almost. To believe in 'self' with any authenticity, any clarity, we really need to appreciate that 'self', and that requires a very painful stripping away of all the facades we've placed over 'self' through the years.

I like to look at it this way; when we were first born, we were simply 'me/self', yet much pain, fear, distress, desires to 'fit in', losses etc. later, we've lost that 'self' somewhere deep inside the 'self' that we present at any time to ourselves at first, then the world around. This is a very convincing facade we've place over 'self' of late, yet it effectively cover the previous and thhat one, the previous.

So to just be 'self', we really need to strip away all these facades until the actual, authentic 'self' - the newborn baby 'self' is exposed. Any other way of relating to 'self' is a fabrication.

Yes, that's one perspective but what if we were meant to be who we have become? What if we cannot sustain the new born self? It can seem like a fabrication but it's not really. We are all a product of our life experiences and we can change this product if you're willing to go to hell and back. Most will not, especially not for some idea of a true self or something other. Even when you do, you are still a person with a personality. It cannot be totally removed without becoming catatonic.

Yet the process of stripping away all these facades is an extremely painful one, so most try the short-cut route and therefore delude themselves and preach to others with empty slogans like 'it's a heart thing' or 'you either get it or you don't". Why? Because they have no idea how to explain it. Why? Because they merely believe in their own delusion and have no way of explaining it, or more specifically admitting it.

I'm used to it. Water off a duck's back. But you know what? They can't begin to see the dynamics of the game they play. It's incredibly narcissistic with quite a twist of sublimation.

Ditto!

[Apopohis Reject]

A short note to previous post; of all those I've yet come across on this forum with whom I don't always see eye to eye, Beingist and Arc, present as the most reasonable in my opinion.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

You just think you are not who you think you are so you must think you are other than who you are which is the great I AM. Halleluya brothers. I can see the ermine on the cloak.



Yes, you have all said in no uncertain terms that those who 'don't get it' are at fault in some way. I get it though I disagree. However, they are your beliefs and the onus is on you to be understood, not on me to understand it. I am truly apathetic to these beliefs. I consider them pie in the sky, spiritual escapism, fear of reality and I can understand that.

This is what I meant by the 'insincerity' comment that Spongebob thought was unnecessary. You began this conversation with no intention of trying to understand anything, and yet you ask a question about why you can't understand it, as though you're the slightest bit interested in trying. Since you aren't, why are you even here discussing it? The answer is because you want to make us wrong, which is what you accuse us of doing.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

oh yeh.


You guys have conceptualized yourselves into a corner and every time it comes down to the nitty gritty of reality, you shift the focus onto the ones who 'don't get it'. Doesn't that ring a bell at all?

You can never kill your demons off as long as you keep creating them, Paula.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Well, in a way we all do that as we disagree in these discussions, as you're doing now. You're making it the fault of others with their judgments and 'Emperors New Clothes" and making others wrong and such.

It seems like you're being a bit over sensitive,

Who is being over sensitive with the "Emperor's New Clothes?" You are judging others, Arcanum. That's the only judgement I've made of you because I am the object of your judgement and I respond.

which I guess you'll see as a horrible judgment that I'll have to make right before we can ever get past it.

Well Stop It then.

You ask why what some of us are pointing to can't be seen by you if it's so simple, and we say because it can't be conveyed conceptually in spite of it's simplicity.

I don't ask you to conceptualize it. I ask you directly what it is and you cannot say. Hmmmph!

This is the truth, it's not an accusing waggling finger pointing at your nose. It's the problem spiritual seekers have had to deal with for thousands of years. Why would you take it as a blame game?

I haven't. I just said a game.

Arcanum, read your own words. I haven't mentioned you being insincere or dismissing the possibility or you needing to change your attitude or you making everything into concepts. They are your observation through your perceptions and you think they are true.

I (gently, I thought) tried to offer an explanation to Spongebob as to why there seems to be a communications barrier between himself and some of us. If I'm right, there's the possibility of improving this communication, and that's why it was mentioned. I didn't say it to sneer and point and spit and play games.

Now I've sincerely not a clue what you are on about. Where on earth is your thinking?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

This is what I meant by the 'insincerity' comment that Spongebob thought was unnecessary. You began this conversation with no intention of trying to understand anything, and yet you ask a question about why you can't understand it, as though you're the slightest bit interested in trying. Since you aren't, why are you even here discussing it? The answer is because you want to make us wrong, which is what you accuse us of doing.

There you go again. How the hell could you glean all that from my question, which was in response to Chris's post? What's it to you why I'm here discussing it? Oh rhetorical question. You do that all the time and you are so far from the truth. I'll say it once. I have never come on here with the intention or motive of making anyone wrong! I express myself as you do. I don't believe you come with a hidden agenda either but then I see you as my equal. Pity it's not reciprocated.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

You are saying the same thing - almost. To believe in 'self' with any authenticity, any clarity, we really need to appreciate that 'self', and that requires a very painful stripping away of all the facades we've placed over 'self' through the years.

I like to look at it this way; when we were first born, we were simply 'me/self', yet much pain, fear, distress, desires to 'fit in', losses etc. later, we've lost that 'self' somewhere deep inside the 'self' that we present at any time to ourselves at first, then the world around. This is a very convincing facade we've place over 'self' of late, yet it effectively cover the previous and thhat one, the previous.

So to just be 'self', we really need to strip away all these facades until the actual, authentic 'self' - the newborn baby 'self' is exposed. Any other way of relating to 'self' is a fabrication. Yet the process of stripping away all these facades is an extremely painful one, so most try the short-cut route and therefore delude themselves and preach to others with empty slogans like 'it's a heart thing' or 'you either get it or you don't". Why? Because they have no idea how to explain it. Why? Because they merely believe in their own delusion and have no way of explaining it, or more specifically admitting it.

I'm used to it. Water off a duck's back. But you know what? They can't begin to see the dynamics of the game they play. It's incredibly narcissistic with quite a twist of sublimation.

The process you talk about here is absolutely valid, and is part of what the rest of us (on the other side of the imaginary battle line) are saying. However, mostly we're talking about what is beyond that uncovering of the 'authentic personal self' that you're talking about, which I would call ego work, or what I sometimes refer to as becoming conscious. Yes, it's a painful process, and frankly you bring pain to everyone around you as they help you go through that process, but it's okay. Truth realization is something else entirely, and there's no reason at all for you or Maguru to be interested in that, but there's also no reason for you to struggle with it.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You can never kill your demons off as long as you keep creating them, Paula.

Now you can see my demons? The perceptions are coming thick and fast. I'm sorry to say this but it's you, not me. with love

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

A short note to previous post; of all those I've yet come across on this forum with whom I don't always see eye to eye, Beingist and Arc, present as the most reasonable in my opinion.

Yes, Chris too. Very intelligent and a strong sense of self.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I don't ask you to conceptualize it. I ask you directly what it is and you cannot say. Hmmmph!

Is that a joke? How can anything be said without conceptualizing?

Arcanum, read your own words. I haven't mentioned you being insincere or dismissing the possibility or you needing to change your attitude or you making everything into concepts. They are your observation through your perceptions and you think they are true.

Huh? Yes, I know. What was your point? Is your point that my judgments are wrong and yours are right?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

There you go again. How the hell could you glean all that from my question, which was in response to Chris's post? What's it to you why I'm here discussing it? Oh rhetorical question. You do that all the time and you are so far from the truth. I'll say it once. I have never come on here with the intention or motive of making anyone wrong! I express myself as you do. I don't believe you come with a hidden agenda either but then I see you as my equal. Pity it's not reciprocated.

How do I know? I detected the insincerity in your question, and you verified that when you said you have no interest in what you asked about:

they are your beliefs and the onus is on you to be understood, not on me to understand it. I am truly apathetic to these beliefs. I consider them pie in the sky, spiritual escapism, fear of reality and I can understand that.

You like to get into trouble, especially with me it seems. Sometimes it helps you. It's okay, I don't mind playing that game. As long as the mods let us play, I'll probly stay and play with you.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Even when you do, you are still a person with a personality. It cannot be totally removed without becoming catatonic.

Is becoming catatonic something you fear when you look at what's being said?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Now you can see my demons? The perceptions are coming thick and fast. I'm sorry to say this but it's you, not me. with love

Yes, I'm one of your demons. (insert demonic demon smiley here)

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

You know, this is so unbelievably weird, but, as one can see in the "What Is, Is" thread, I used to think about Arcanum, myself, as judgmental, however subtle his judgments may have appeared to me (thus my reaction evident in the thread). But, since going through this latest shift, I can see more clearly now, that he is simply more one to cut to the quick, and in our inflated view of ourselves, we react. He's not judging, but as he's said a number of times (even while I was reacting, myself), he's only offering his perspective.

That said, and at risk of you, Maguru, reacting, I can understand exactly what Arcanum's getting at, and it's not that he thinks you're 'at fault' in any way. Rather, it's likely you who think that of yourself, for not 'getting it'. But you'll 'get it'. Of that, I'm fairly confident. But be advised that 'getting it', or at least the process of it, isn't all rainbows and unicorns.

Yes, there's clearly much more willingness to hear what's being said on your part. That's a good thing whether you think it's all BS or not. It's a shame we have to pretend we're all battling each other for a few weeks/months but hey it's kind of like being an actor in a play.