What Is, Is

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Beingist

You mean, like, heroes? Buddha? Jesus?

no

I would think glorification would be a form of attachment.

yes

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Adrenaline junkies also do this. In the thrill seeking of a challenging sport for instance. Or maybe just the pure moment of being immersed in the activity.

And then, there are automatic responses going on as well. If, for example, you are an accomplished skier, you probably get into the zone regularly. But you can only do that because you can rely on past experience of skiing, or training.

It would be unlikely to happen if you have never skied and go down a double black diamond!

Although, that too could put one into the single moment peak experience too. Just out of shear survival mode kicking in.

Just about everything people do to feel better or feel alive involves forgetting their illusory image of self. Since most people aren't actually willing to look and see if that image is real they settle for continuous opportunities to drown it out in a bottle or to climb a mountain where the mind goes into survival mode thereby momentarily eliminating all of that.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Just about everything people do to feel better or feel alive involves forgetting their illusory image of self. Since most people aren't actually willing to look and see if that image is real they settle for continuous opportunities to drown it out in a bottle or to climb a mountain where the mind goes into survival mode thereby momentarily eliminating all of that.

I'd like to think climbing a mountain is more noble and maybe not drowning out the image of a self but being healthily engaged in nature.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

I'd like to think climbing a mountain is more noble and maybe not drowning out the image of a self but being healthily engaged in nature.

Yes, I wouldn't disagree. I'm merely trying to point out that the vast majority of activities people do to feel better aside from biological urges (taking a dump for example) is to temporarily find relief from the image of a separate volitional self that seems to poison experience itself.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Yes, I wouldn't disagree. I'm merely trying to point out that the vast majority of activities people do to feel better aside from biological urges (taking a dump for example) is to temporarily find relief from the image of a separate volitional self that seems to poison experience itself.

Yup, being 'in the zone' or the 'adrenaline rush' is a way to be present and selfless without having to acknowledge the absence. IOW, a way for the 'me' to own the experience of no-me. If peeps noticed what was really happening, the illusion might collapse.

[bodi]

'snif' 'snif'
what's that smell?
whatever it is, it stinks.
oh, wait. it's Zen

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by bodi

'snif' 'snif'
what's that smell?
whatever it is, it stinks.
oh, wait. it's Zen

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

I'm guessing he has an issue with Zen Buddhism and sees Zen demons lurking somewhere, but it's just a guess.

[Beingist]

Adyashanti teaches a meditative technique of simply allowing everything to be as it is--which, to me, is another way of accepting 'What Is'.

I can really dig that, and as I do it myself, lately, it really allows for things to flow very nicely.

[bodi]

A wise old Zen master, very near death, lay quietly on his mat with his eyes closed, all his disciples gathered around. Kneeling closest to him was his number one disciple, a longtime practitioner who would succeed the old man as head of the monastery. At one point the old master opened his eyes, and lovingly gazed at each and every one of his disciples assembled in the crowded room. Finally his glance rested on his successor, and he managed to speak his last words to the man: “Ah, my son, you have a very thorough knowledge of the teachings and scriptures, and you have shown great discipline in keeping the precepts. Your behavior has, in fact, been flawless. Yet there is one more thing remaining to be cleared up: you still reek and stink of ‘Zen’!”

"In Zen "the stink of Zen" refers to people who have experienced short moments of enlightenment, or Satori, or seeing the nature of reality. But the ego doesn't cease to exist. It becomes temporarily dorment, only to show it's face again when the memory of the moment recedes. These people will describe themselves too soon and early as "masters" or "guru's" and should be the ones to avoid when seeking guidance with a master."
Here's another definition: "It is what the Zen literature calls “the stink of Zen,” the parading of one’s superior insight under the pretension of humility."
We all do it sometimes more than others ... we start talking about it way too much ... maybe not describing ourselves as "masters" or "teachers" ... but talking like know-it-alls, just the same.

carol, zenforuminternational

The "stink of Zen" also is emitted by those who practice for a short while and then out of the blue, shave their heads, start wearing all black, move exactly the way the teacher moves, and give a knowing smile and a "Zen answer" to all questions.

This stink can also be emitted by those who have been practicing for a while but in more subtle ways, such as pretending that they have deep understanding after reading a bunch of books, impersonating a teacher by copying their speech and manners, or by setting themselves up as an authority with neither spiritual nor academic credentials behind them.

Nonin
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA

Of course, to speak of 'the stink of Zen' doesn't mean it has to be Zen.

One can also stink of Christianity, Taoism, Yoga, Science, Philosophy or just about any other Way.

It's all about the pretentious putting forth of oneself as an expert or authority in any of these, even if you actually do know a little or even a lot. We all do it from time to time, esp. in these kinds of forums. I know I've sure been guilty of it.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by bodi

Of course, to speak of 'the stink of Zen' doesn't mean it has to be Zen.

One can also stink of Christianity, Taoism, Yoga, Science, Philosophy or just about any other Way.

It's all about the pretentious putting forth of oneself as an expert or authority in any of these, even if you actually do know a little or even a lot. We all do it from time to time, esp. in these kinds of forums. I know I've sure been guilty of it.

Yep. Me, too, actually.

Thanks for the explanation. That was worth the read.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by bodi

It's all about the pretentious putting forth of oneself as an expert or authority in any of these, even if you actually do know a little or even a lot. We all do it from time to time, esp. in these kinds of forums. I know I've sure been guilty of it.

I’ll confess to that also, I think it’s part of the process; one usually squabbles during the jnana stage of sorting through things until realizing there is nothing worth sorting through, that's why no matter the means in the end it must also dissolve. Appreciation of religion, philosophy, science etc. will give one freedom from the same.

[Arcanum]

Quote:
"In Zen "the stink of Zen" refers to people who have experienced short moments of enlightenment, or Satori, or seeing the nature of reality. But the ego doesn't cease to exist. It becomes temporarily dorment, only to show it's face again when the memory of the moment recedes. These people will describe themselves too soon and early as "masters" or "guru's" and should be the ones to avoid when seeking guidance with a master."
Here's another definition: "It is what the Zen literature calls “the stink of Zen,” the parading of one’s superior insight under the pretension of humility."
We all do it sometimes more than others ... we start talking about it way too much ... maybe not describing ourselves as "masters" or "teachers" ... but talking like know-it-alls, just the same.

carol, zenforuminternational
Quote:
The "stink of Zen" also is emitted by those who practice for a short while and then out of the blue, shave their heads, start wearing all black, move exactly the way the teacher moves, and give a knowing smile and a "Zen answer" to all questions.

This stink can also be emitted by those who have been practicing for a while but in more subtle ways, such as pretending that they have deep understanding after reading a bunch of books, impersonating a teacher by copying their speech and manners, or by setting themselves up as an authority with neither spiritual nor academic credentials behind them.

Nonin
Soto Zen Buddhist Priest. Transmitted Dharma Heir of Dainin Katagiri Roshi.
Abbot and Head Teacher, Nebraska Zen Center / Heartland Temple, Omaha, Nebraska, USA
Of course, to speak of 'the stink of Zen' doesn't mean it has to be Zen.

One can also stink of Christianity, Taoism, Yoga, Science, Philosophy or just about any other Way.

It's all about the pretentious putting forth of oneself as an expert or authority in any of these, even if you actually do know a little or even a lot. We all do it from time to time, esp. in these kinds of forums. I know I've sure been guilty of it.
__________________

So, the 'stink' morphs from "describing themselves too soon and early as "masters" or "guru's"" to "the parading of one’s superior insight under the pretension of humility." to " talking about it way too much" to "talking like know-it-alls" to "pretending that they have deep understanding" to "the pretentious putting forth of oneself as an expert or authority in any of these, even if you actually do know a little or even a lot.", followed by the conclusion that "We all do it from time to time".

Of course 'we all do it from time to time' because you just included every possible form of egoic resistance to anything anyone says. You just said that everybody stinks when we don't like what someone has to say. And from my perspective, though it will stink to high heaven (hehe) others here just fell into your trap by shuffling their feet and admitting guilt to your straw stinker.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

others here just fell into your trap by shuffling their feet and admitting guilt to your straw stinker.

Or were we trying to say the same thing in so called “gentler” terms.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Or were we trying to say the same thing in so called “gentler” terms.

Maybe. I dunno. I'm not really an authority on such things. Hehe.

[bodi]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

So, the 'stink' morphs from "describing themselves too soon and early as "masters" or "guru's"" to "the parading of one’s superior insight under the pretension of humility." to " talking about it way too much" to "talking like know-it-alls" to "pretending that they have deep understanding" to "the pretentious putting forth of oneself as an expert or authority in any of these, even if you actually do know a little or even a lot.",

morphs? I don't think there's any morphing going on here. Besides, "I" didn't say any of this...

Originally Posted by Arcanum

You just said that everybody stinks when we don't like what someone has to say.

No. That's not what I'm saying.

[bodi]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Maybe. I dunno. I'm not really an authority on such things. Hehe.

You sure sound like you think you are...

[bodi]

do you think you know something that you need to pass on, arc?

[ChrisGinsburg]

Is there a discussion you were looking to have bodi?

[Arcanum]

Bodi, why not start a thread to talk about the stink of Zen and spiritual arrogance?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

And from my perspective, though it will stink to high heaven (hehe) others here just fell into your trap by shuffling their feet and admitting guilt to your straw stinker.

Funny, I don't feel as though I was trapped.

[bodi]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Is there a discussion you were looking to have bodi?

I'm having it

[bodi]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Bodi, why not start a thread to talk about the stink of Zen and spiritual arrogance?

What is, is.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Bodi, why not start a thread to talk about the stink of Zen and spiritual arrogance?

Originally Posted by bodi

What is, is.

Are you suggesting that this thread "stinks of Zen?"

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Are you suggesting that this thread "stinks of Zen?"

FWIW, and from my perspective, of course, the difference between having a discussion of differences with you, B, and with Bodi is that your heart remains open regardless of where the mind goes. Essentially what it means is that there is always the openness to understanding. It's one of the things I love about Marie. Never is the willingness exhausted.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

FWIW, and from my perspective, of course, the difference between having a discussion of differences with you, B, and with Bodi is that your heart remains open regardless of where the mind goes. Essentially what it means is that there is always the openness to understanding. It's one of the things I love about Marie. Never is the willingness exhausted.

Thanks, Arc. I feel blessed that you recognize that. Had I not allowed myself to be at least a little open, I would likely have killed myself some time ago.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Thanks, Arc. I feel blessed that you recognize that. Had I not allowed myself to be at least a little open, I would likely have killed myself some time ago.

Yep, life can either shut us down or open us up. The first one can get extremely painful.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Yep, life can either shut us down or open us up. The first one can get extremely painful.

And you know, the funniest thing is that the most effective way to get yourself out of committing suicide is to be open to the prospect of death.

Seriously, the whole death thing is one, MASSIVE, counterintuitive concept. Painful as all hell to face, but once you do, you'll never be the same. In fact, that's when you start really living.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

And you know, the funniest thing is that the most effective way to get yourself out of committing suicide is to be open to the prospect of death.

Seriously, the whole death thing is one, MASSIVE, counterintuitive concept. Painful as all hell to face, but once you do, you'll never be the same. In fact, that's when you start really living.

Yeah, some would say the whole seeking process is driven by the fear of death, and so we can see why there must be death. As with any fear, when it's fully embraced, it ceases to be, since it is driven by resistance.
Momento mori, eh?

[Sponge]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

FWIW, and from my perspective, of course, the difference between having a discussion of differences with you, B, and with Bodi is that your heart remains open regardless of where the mind goes. Essentially what it means is that there is always the openness to understanding. It's one of the things I love about Marie. Never is the willingness exhausted.

And I like your patience with people like me! At the end of the day, you either have an interest in this subject (non duality) or you don't. If you do then people like Arc and Chris and others on here are great to help you along. Saves you the cost of a retreat to India. Rather nice of them to help I think. If you don't have any interest or disagree just leave it, there are plenty of other discussion threads to get involved in.