What Is, Is

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Okay. But what's the problem, then, if it's just a character playing a role (in this case)? Isn't the fact that a character is leaving everything not depicted in his act up to the imagination, anyway? A character isn't real. He's not playing himself. So what's the problem with imagining him as anything he's not depicting? Do you see my point?

The thing is that you're a character, too. When you are believing in yourself as a person, you're being no more "real" than the character you see.

I never said that projection is a problem. It just isn't very conducive to growth.

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, I've suspected that he hasn't been his real self, which is the very reason I've been reacting. You confirmed my suspicions (though still call that 'projecting', for whatever reason), when you confirmed his admission to playing the "role of hated one," (his phrase) "quite happily."

Seriously, though, I don't feel so bad now, for 'projecting', when all along, he was the one doing the 'projecting' of his 'role as hated one', while everyone else thought I was crazy for suspecting him of anything. Seriously, I feel ... somewhat vindicated.

Beingist, you're running away with your projections again. Read what i said in my earlier post. You are reading into it what you want to see.

I never said that arcanum is trying to be in the role of the "hated one." I said that he is pointing out people's projections, much as I am with you right now. If that results in people hating him, so be it; it is not so unexpected. But everyone here is just pointing out projections. No one's being fake, and no one is deceiving.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well I agree it does at times, yet I think it's been quite a valid, even valuable discussion overall.

Quite possibly, yes.

Whilst this is far and away the best forum I've yet come across, I must say there has still been a little too much ego in a great many posts, which hasn't helped the process of honest sharing in an atmosphere of support and inclusion, which 'ONEness' requires as prerequisit.

Well, it is what it is. Hehe.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

You're seeing precisely what you want to see.

Okay, now just hold on one cotton-pickin' minute.

So, now you're saying, that I've wanted to see something different every time I read something different from him? Or are you saying that all along, I've wanted to see someone "playing the role of 'hated one'", as he put it?

Bear in mind, that I can't literally see any of you. You're all just text on a screen, as am I, drawing characterizations of mental makeups. That's all I can even figuratively "see". So, I take issue with the idea that I (just like you, too, I suppose), "see precisely what I want to see". I suspected deception, and that suspicion has been confirmed. For anyone to be pointing fingers, saying that I "wanted" to be deceived (even if it was for my own benefit), I would think has somewhat of a logic problem.

You've reached the dilemma where what's being said is starting to take shape but the mind can't see over the hill to see if letting go will be safe for you. Since you can't actually determine this, the second option is to verify Arcanum's credibility or lack thereof. This is the very reason Arcanum is not going on about his personal details because it is already known that the mind will panic and look for ways to discredit what's being said by the basis of who's saying it. In the absence of finding someone or something to blame, perhaps then the whole charade may be exposed.

You know, I find it amazing how some people around are so adamant about telling me what's happening with me, even when I don't resonate with what they're telling me. It's like someone trying to convince me that I'm really a horse, and they think that if they tell me often enough that I'm a horse, I'll ultimately believe that I'm a horse.

The fact that you think he's somewhat of a robot is actually kind of funny because it doesn't feel like you've really been living until you let go off all the crap that isn't true.

Well, to be honest, I don't see him as a robot, anymore. Rather, now I see him as a dealer, dealing cards off the bottom for select individuals to win the pot. Now, to be clear (since what I say is so often thrown back at me as meaning something else) I know he's probably not a card dealer. But since he cannot say anything more, even in his defense, I suppose he'll remain a complete mystery, unless he chooses to simply be himself, and quit with the charades.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

The thing is that you're a character, too. When you are believing in yourself as a person, you're being no more "real" than the character you see.

Nope. Disagree. I'm not pretending or trying to be anything, here. I'm not hiding myself. I'm up front. I'm direct. I'm out there. Have at it. Call me character, if you will, but if you do, you must call Arcanum a character of a character. Remember, to him, as he has revealed, nothing is real. Not even him.

I never said that arcanum is trying to be in the role of the "hated one." I said that he is pointing out people's projections, much as I am with you right now. If that results in people hating him, so be it; it is not so unexpected. But everyone here is just pointing out projections. No one's being fake, and no one is deceiving.

Look, from what I must induce (since he won't tell us directly who he is, or what he's doing) as he said himself, he is playing the role of a 'hated one'. You confirmed that, by saying that he does so "happily". Apparently, he is doing it to point out people's projections. And yes, if that results in people hating him, so be it. Well, whether I hate him or is irrelevant, as now the fact is, that unless he reveals who he is and what he's doing, he cannot have credibility (at least with me). I'm on the up-and-up, here, and I would expect at least the same courtesy. Otherwise, good day.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Bear in mind, that I can't literally see any of you. You're all just text on a screen, as am I, drawing characterizations of mental makeups.

Precisely. Now stop for just moment and recognize that it doesn't matter one way or another what in the world Arcanum, myself or anyone else really is. What are you left with? What is arising in you and can you actually blame what is arising on the text on the screen or is there something deeper to notice? When there is no one and nothing left to blame, what will you do?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Precisely. Now stop for just moment and recognize that it doesn't matter one way or another what in the world Arcanum, myself or anyone else really is. What are you left with? What is arising in you and can you actually blame what is arising on the text on the screen or is there something deeper to notice? When there is no one and nothing left to blame, what will you do?

No, I don't recognize that "it doesn't matter [...] what one really is" (I wasn't talking about that, anyway, but what one can only "see" in this forum).

Yes, there is something deeper--the mental make-up. And my mental make-up blames Arcanum's mental make-up for playing a "role", rather than being himself. That's not love, to me, that's deceitful, for whatever purposes. Frankly, I had given more credit before realizing his M.O. I'm actually disappointed, right now. (Funny, how I'm running through a series of emotions).

As far as "when there is no one and nothing left to blame," I was there, once, already, and they threw me in a mental lockup. FYI.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Now who's doing the "doing?"

Seems to me (which means it's not necessarily true), that the only thing you're doing is avoiding the expression of a reaction. How is that clarity? Isn't that the very thing you've been critical of me for?

What sort of reaction do you want from me? Should I be joyful at the loving kindness being expressed in this thread? Should I feel hurt and insulted? Should I feel inspired? It's just a discussion, and unless some clarity shows up, it's not a particularly useful one.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

What sort of reaction do you want from me? Should I be joyful at the loving kindness being expressed in this thread? Should I feel hurt and insulted? Should I feel inspired? It's just a discussion, and unless some clarity shows up, it's not a particularly useful one.

Interesting how you are invoking clarity, after being revealed as someone playing a 'role'.

Not sure how one can think that clarity can possibly show up after being so ... arcane.

Sorry, that just makes me laugh.

Otherwise, I don't expect any particular reaction from anyone, let alone someone who doesn't even think they're real.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

As far as "when there is no one and nothing left to blame," I was there, once, already, and they threw me in a mental lockup. FYI.

And if you were to stop blaming Arcanum in this moment, where would you be left?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Nope. Disagree. I'm not pretending or trying to be anything, here. I'm not hiding myself. I'm up front. I'm direct. I'm out there. Have at it. Call me character, if you will, but if you do, you must call Arcanum a character of a character. Remember, to him, as he has revealed, nothing is real. Not even him.

You, and everyone that you perceive, are characters. When you let go of all of the characters and stop the blame game, then you'll see the true Self, which is Being itself, and is not a character. So no, you, arcanum, ChristsLight, and everyone else are not "real" as appearances discussing in this forum. You're an appearance blaming an appearance.

Originally Posted by Beingist

Look, from what I must induce (since he won't tell us directly who he is, or what he's doing) as he said himself, he is playing the role of a 'hated one'. You confirmed that, by saying that he does so "happily". Apparently, he is doing it to point out people's projections. And yes, if that results in people hating him, so be it. Well, whether I hate him or is irrelevant, as now the fact is, that unless he reveals who he is and what he's doing, he cannot have credibility (at least with me). I'm on the up-and-up, here, and I would expect at least the same courtesy. Otherwise, good day.

Beingist, I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, but I confirmed no such thing. I confirmed he's more than happy to allow others to see him in that light, because they are going to anyway, so why sweat over it? You are reading into my words what was never there, because you want to see something there to help your cause here. If you can blame arcanum and others, then you don't have to accept responsibility for Beingist and for Beingist's perceptions.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

No one is real. Nothing is real. What's the use, even, for the word, "real?"

And THAT was my point.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

And if you were to stop blaming Arcanum in this moment, where would you be left?

This might take me a bit, yet. I'll let you know.

Right now, it's not so much blame as ... disappointment. I really held him in much higher esteem before I realized what's been going on.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

And THAT was my point.

Yeah, well. Since to you, I'm not real, either, (or, rather, Who I Am), then I don't have much reason to feel really good about myself, or you, if I take you seriously.

To me, there is a Reality that is beyond all the appearances. That is 'what is,' to me. That is real. It is Who I Am (and Who You are, as well). It's just disappointing that you don't recognize it, yourself.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

You, and everyone that you perceive, are characters. When you let go of all of the characters and stop the blame game, then you'll see the true Self, which is Being itself, and is not a character. So no, you, arcanum, ChristsLight, and everyone else are not "real" as appearances discussing in this forum. You're an appearance blaming an appearance.

Hmmm. Then what's the point of discussing anything any further? What's the point of even living, if we're all just appearances?

Beingist, I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, but I confirmed no such thing. I confirmed he's more than happy to allow others to see him in that light, because they are going to anyway, so why sweat over it?

Whoa! Hold the phone! Isn't "they're going to [hate him]anyway" a ... wait, wait, a PROJECTION?!?

You are reading into my words what was never there, because you want to see something there to help your cause here. If you can blame arcanum and others, then you don't have to accept responsibility for Beingist and for Beingist's perceptions.

No, you're confirming it all, even more solidly, CL. Right now, I don't blame anyone for anything. I am only disappointed that he feels that he has to be secretive, for whatever ends, out of fear of "being hated anyway", only to tell me that I'm projecting. I'm more likely to listen to you, CL, telling me the same thing, and you didn't have to be secretive about it.

I'll get over this, I'm sure, but right now, I'm just ... really disappointed.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Hmmm. Then what's the point of discussing anything any further? What's the point of even living, if we're all just appearances?

Because you, as what you truly are, are not an appearance. This is simply Being itself, free of attributions, filters, concepts.

Originally Posted by Beingist

Whoa! Hold the phone! Isn't "they're going to [hate him]anyway" a ... wait, wait, a PROJECTION?!?

Beingist, do you see how you are allowing all of this to distract you? Your mind is running away with its projections of an appearance. Like Chris asked, who would you be without those appearances and the ability to blame them?

Originally Posted by Beingist

No, you're confirming it all, even more solidly, CL. Right now, I don't blame anyone for anything. I am only disappointed that he feels that he has to be secretive, for whatever ends, out of fear of "being hated anyway", only to tell me that I'm projecting. I'm more likely to listen to you, CL, telling me the same thing, and you didn't have to be secretive about it.

I'll get over this, I'm sure, but right now, I'm just ... really disappointed.

I'm not sure why it is so important to you. Again, it seems like a distraction.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Yeah, well. Since to you, I'm not real, either, (or, rather, Who I Am), then I don't have much reason to feel really good about myself, or you, if I take you seriously.

To me, there is a Reality that is beyond all the appearances. That is 'what is,' to me. That is real. It is Who I Am (and Who You are, as well). It's just disappointing that you don't recognize it, yourself.

I agree with you. I don't have an issue with calling that which is beyond all appearances, Reality. What you asked me about was reality and illusion, and I said something to the effect that nothing in physicality (appearances) was more real than anything else. I wasn't talking about what I am beyond appearances. so, no, you can't use that as an excuse to dismiss everything said as being 'unreal' because I'm 'unreal'.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Hmmm. Then what's the point of discussing anything any further? What's the point of even living, if we're all just appearances?

Whoa! Hold the phone! Isn't "they're going to [hate him]anyway" a ... wait, wait, a PROJECTION?!?
No, you're confirming it all, even more solidly, CL. Right now, I don't blame anyone for anything. I am only disappointed that he feels that he has to be secretive, for whatever ends, out of fear of "being hated anyway", only to tell me that I'm projecting. I'm more likely to listen to you, CL, telling me the same thing, and you didn't have to be secretive about it.

I'll get over this, I'm sure, but right now, I'm just ... really disappointed.

So if i get the story right, Arcanum fears being hated and so puts on some kind of deceitful act of secretly pointing out projections, which are really his projections, and you're so disappointed in him, but it makes you feel better about yourself?

That escape hatch really needs to be closed and bolted shut. I never deceived you. From the beginning I've pointed out your contradictions and misperceptions so that we could explore them and see if they were true. They didn't go over well with you and you got sleepy and couldn't actually understand what I was saying, even though i was speaking clearly. Nothing was ever hidden from you and there was no deceit. If you don't believe it, go back and read the posts and try again.

When i said I seem to be playing the role of the hated one, I was half kidding, though I seem to have picked up on your hate. What I meant is that, in the process of trying to discuss these misperceptions of yours, you built up a strong resistance to me. It wasn't intentional though not entirely unexpected. The perception on my part that in retrospect I seem to playing such a role comes from my realization that I'm not running the show and in a way everybody is playing a role unbeknown to them, and that this seems to be mine. I'm happy to take your blame, name calling and condescending remarks if it offers you the opportunity for clarity. It did, in fact, make it clear to you that you cannot simply choose to accept all of your perceptions, and at least opens to the door to the possibility that you're not actually perceiving 'what is', so I have no regrets regardless of the final outcome, which is entirely up to you.

There isn't some M.O. to hide and act and protect myself out of fear and project stuff onto you. You're making all that up to make yourself feel better, and make you right and me wrong, and feel all noble about being disappointed in me. Trash all that nonsense. What CL is calling projections is right on, and is exactly what I was referring to. The stories get bigger and better and are totally bogus attempts to avoid questioning your own perceptions, which on some level you came here to question, so do it and stop looking for a way out.

No, you didn't push any buttons and this is not a rant, but it's not in your best interest to find an escape route right now, so I DO mean to close that door.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Beingist

This might take me a bit, yet. I'll let you know.

Right now, it's not so much blame as ... disappointment. I really held him in much higher esteem before I realized what's been going on.

Your image of him whether it was in high esteem, a deceitful traitor or a robot were all made up. At some point in the process of clarity this is seen. You're currently trading one projection for another and it's being said that you can just drop all of them and have the courage to look at what's actually true.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Your image of him whether it was in high esteem, a deceitful traitor or a robot were all made up. At some point in the process of clarity this is seen. You're currently trading one projection for another and it's being said that you can just drop all of them and have the courage to look at what's actually true.

And what's actually true, CG?

Anybody? What's actually true? Three of you keep telling me that I'm projecting. What's NOT a projection in a world of appearances?

Secondly, what about you three--do you not also project? Or do you all claim to be perfectly enlightened beings come to save me from all my supposed projections?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

It did, in fact, make it clear to you that you cannot simply choose to accept all of your perceptions, and at least opens to the door to the possibility that you're not actually perceiving 'what is', so I have no regrets regardless of the final outcome, which is entirely up to you.

Well, actually, it's not in the OP, but all anyone can really do is BE 'what is', so in accepting 'what is,' one is not (or at least I am not) accepting perceptions or appearances. But, usually, that goes a bit too far for most people, and I wasn't thinking that at the time, so it got left out. I'm wondering now, if that might not be part of any miscommunication.

Otherwise, thanks, Arcanum, for finally speaking up about yourself.

[VinceG]

I used to care about projection, a long, long time ago. Who was projecting and who was "truthin'," who was getting it right and who was just running around in circles inside his own head.

Now I see there's no point in making this distinction, because whatever anybody says about anybody else is completely true because we are all the same. We are sinners and saints. We are murderers and heros. The only difference is circumstances and perceptions. And a perception is just as true as a circumstance. If the law perceives me to be a murderer, that's exactly the same as me actually being a murderer. I can try to change the perception, and it will be similarly difficult whether I actually am a murderer or not.

Now I see that saying someone is "projecting" is just a little bit of defensive fluff. They don't want to understand another's perception, so they claim that their accuser is running around inside their own head. Silliness, because the vast majority of the cases, the people talking have about the same perceptive skills, i.e. they see the same proportion of themselves and other people in the world. Pot calling the kettle black.

There's only one way to alter that proportion, through hard work trying to understand someone else. Not something someone crying "projection" is apt to do.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Because you, as what you truly are, are not an appearance. This is simply Being itself, free of attributions, filters, concepts.

Well, I know this, CL, it's just that people keep telling me I'm making projections, and that everything is illusions. If I were to believe what people were telling me, I'd have no reason to live. So why listen to people who are telling me that all is illusion? I don't accept that, anyway. Oh, but I'm projecting.

Seriously, nothing you guys say makes any sense anymore. Maybe that's a good thing.

Beingist, do you see how you are allowing all of this to distract you? Your mind is running away with its projections of an appearance. Like Chris asked, who would you be without those appearances and the ability to blame them?

Okay, well, there I go, projecting, again, I guess. Such is the nature of illusions to project, I suppose.

I'm not sure why it is so important to you. Again, it seems like a distraction.

Frankly, I thought everything was alright before people started harping on me about projecting and creating 'distractions'. I was perfectly content to just Being Who I am. But then you three came along, and started telling me that 'what is' is a projection, and this and that is a projection, and honestly, I don't know what to think, anymore.

Am I supposed to follow you guys anywhere you lead? Do you expect me to put all my faith in what you're telling me? Not sure where you're leading me, but I really don't grasp a lot of what you guys are saying or doing. That's not at all clear. But, well, I suppose I'll follow you, anyway. Blind faith and all. Three guys saying the same thing, must mean something. You all seem to know what's going on, and I don't.

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

What CL is calling projections is right on, and is exactly what I was referring to. The stories get bigger and better and are totally bogus attempts to avoid questioning your own perceptions, which on some level you came here to question, so do it and stop looking for a way out.

Fine. Tell me, then, what perceptions to question, and then tell me exactly what it means to 'question perceptions,' so I know how to do that, okay?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Now I see that saying someone is "projecting" is just a little bit of defensive fluff. They don't want to understand another's perception, so they claim that their accuser is running around inside their own head. Silliness, because the vast majority of the cases, the people talking have about the same perceptive skills, i.e. they see the same proportion of themselves and other people in the world. Pot calling the kettle black.

Well, I used to see it the same way--"defensive fluff". But, now I've got three guys all telling me I'm projecting, so I guess it's not really "defensive fluff" (unless they're defensively ganging up on me, which they've already said is a 'projection').

After all the brewhaha, I guess I have no choice but to play along.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Beingist

And what's actually true, CG?

Anybody? What's actually true? Three of you keep telling me that I'm projecting. What's NOT a projection in a world of appearances?

Truth is Being—unfiltered Being. We've said this over and over.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, I used to see it the same way--"defensive fluff". But, now I've got three guys all telling me I'm projecting, so I guess it's not really "defensive fluff" (unless they're defensively ganging up on me, which they've already said is a 'projection').

After all the brewhaha, I guess I have no choice but to play along.

When somebody tells me I'm projecting, I simply drop the subject. Defensiveness is not worth trying to get around or power through. I have far better uses for my time.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Well, I know this, CL, it's just that people keep telling me I'm making projections, and that everything is illusions. If I were to believe what people were telling me, I'd have no reason to live. So why listen to people who are telling me that all is illusion? I don't accept that, anyway. Oh, but I'm projecting.

Seriously, nothing you guys say makes any sense anymore. Maybe that's a good thing.

Everything is an illusion; I have no point of disagreement there. I am pointing to a Truth that lies beyond the illusion and all of the appearances. To be sure, if you continue to wonder whether you are real or you are projecting, you are not seeing that Truth, and are still playing around in the dream. I can only point to the Truth; I can't show it to you.

Your mind likely feels threatened, which is why it's coming up with all of these stories of untrustworthy and deceitful emotionless psychiatrists and whatever else. It's because you're approaching the edge of your comfort zone—of your little web of illusions you have spun around yourself, however unintentionally. The good news is that if you are able to look beyond the story, as we're all asking you to do, then you may very well break through to the other side.

Originally Posted by Beingist

Okay, well, there I go, projecting, again, I guess. Such is the nature of illusions to project, I suppose.
Frankly, I thought everything was alright before people started harping on me about projecting and creating 'distractions'. I was perfectly content to just Being Who I am. But then you three came along, and started telling me that 'what is' is a projection, and this and that is a projection, and honestly, I don't know what to think, anymore.

Am I supposed to follow you guys anywhere you lead? Do you expect me to put all my faith in what you're telling me? Not sure where you're leading me, but I really don't grasp a lot of what you guys are saying or doing. That's not at all clear. But, well, I suppose I'll follow you, anyway. Blind faith and all. Three guys saying the same thing, must mean something. You all seem to know what's going on, and I don't.

You do know. You just haven't seen it.

No one's asking for faith or following anyone. Just to drop the stories and take a look beyond.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Fine. Tell me, then, what perceptions to question, and then tell me exactly what it means to 'question perceptions,' so I know how to do that, okay?

All of them.

You said you were here to get rid of all of your beliefs. Here's your chance.

Questioning your perceptions would be questioning your interpretation of "what is," and all of the problems you create around it, or the non-problems that you have to "transcend."

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Everything is an illusion; I have no point of disagreement there. I am pointing to a Truth that lies beyond the illusion and all of the appearances. To be sure, if you continue to wonder whether you are real or you are projecting, you are not seeing that Truth, and are still playing around in the dream. I can only point to the Truth; I can't show it to you.

Look, when you say everything is an illusion, that means Truth is also an illusion. So, you're pointing to illusion.

Your mind likely feels threatened, which is why it's coming up with all of these stories of untrustworthy and deceitful emotionless psychiatrists and whatever else. It's because you're approaching the edge of your comfort zone—of your little web of illusions you have spun around yourself, however unintentionally. The good news is that if you are able to look beyond the story, as we're all asking you to do, then you may very well break through to the other side.

Fine. How do I do that? And why should I do that, if all I'm going to find is more illusion?

[Beingist]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

All of them.

You said you were here to get rid of all of your beliefs. Here's your chance.

Questioning your perceptions would be questioning your interpretation of "what is," and all of the problems you create around it, or the non-problems that you have to "transcend."

Then, there is no Truth, no Being, nothing. It's all an illusion, as you said.

Okay. I think I'm gonna go jump in front of a train, now.