Spiritual Growth Plan - How I went from my head to my heart

[RonSouther]

I just typed this article quickly describing my frustration with my spirituality and how I came to see I am spiritual by nature.

Spiritual Growth Plan

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I just typed this article quickly describing my frustration with my spirituality and how I came to see I am spiritual by nature.

Spiritual Growth Plan

That creative universal presence to me is so clearly God. If I'm created in God's image and God is the Creator and if I see myself authentically and spontaneously eager to create, then how can that not be the presence of God in my life?

Is god sometimes 'not present'?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Is god sometimes 'not present'?

"God" is always present but that doesn't mean we "see" Him.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

"God" is always present but that doesn't mean we "see" Him.

So are you seeing things that are not God?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

So are you seeing things that are not God?

Yup, the illusions I had of life. I also see a destructive humanity. I see our creative nature being used to find better ways to destroy. Let's call that "satan".

We can call creativity "god" and creativity inverted to destroy "satan"

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Yup, the illusions I had of life. I also see a destructive humanity. I see our creative nature being used to find better ways to destroy. Let's call that "satan".

We can call creativity "god" and creativity inverted to destroy "satan"

I can relate to 'creativity' and 'creativity inverted' as being the opposites from a dualistic view point. Do you think god created only the good (love and creativity) and the devil created the bad ( fear and destruction) ?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I can relate to 'creativity' and 'creativity inverted' as being the opposites from a dualistic view point. Do you think god created only the good (love and creativity) and the devil created the bad ( fear and destruction) ?

who created the devil?

[RonSouther]

or who created God and the devil?

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

who created the devil?

Perhaps I should have said Satan? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm referring to the creativity and it's opposite that you termed god and satan. Are you saying that god is love and creativity, and Satan is fear and destruction?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Perhaps I should have said Satan? I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing. I'm referring to the creativity and it's opposite that you termed god and satan. Are you saying that god is love and creativity, and Satan is fear and destruction?

No, what I'm saying is that the force of good is called God and a theology is created around God. And the evil force in life is called Satan and a theology is created for him too.

Both are illusions. The reality it seems to me is that when we are heart centered, life is heaven. When we are logic/mind centered, life is hell. That there is no God to credit for the good and no Satan to blame for the bad.

It's good to live from the heart and bad to live from the mind.

[RonSouther]

The authors of the theologies thought the forces of good and evil were outside self and wrote stories that seemed to explain what they perceived.

But seeing my true qualities and seeing the source of greed, jealousy, possessiveness and selfishness in my life, the theologies are useless to me now.

NOW I see where the mental programming of these theologies created closedmindedness in me whenever someone would say something that was inconsistent with my habitual thinking of my beliefs.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

No, what I'm saying is that the force of good is called God and a theology is created around God. And the evil force in life is called Satan and a theology is created for him too.

Both are illusions. The reality it seems to me is that when we are heart centered, life is heaven. When we are logic/mind centered, life is hell. That there is no God to credit for the good and no Satan to blame for the bad.

I'm really confused. I thought you believed in god being love and creativity?

It's good to live from the heart and bad to live from the mind.

The way I see this, is that the heart is representing good and the mind is representing bad which is just another take on god/satan. It's still represents a battle of good and evil. I'm very familiar with this battle and it's been raging for far too long.

The authors of the theologies thought the forces of good and evil were outside self and wrote stories that seemed to explain what they perceived.

But seeing my true qualities and seeing the source of greed, jealousy, possessiveness and selfishness in my life, the theologies are useless to me now.

NOW I see where the mental programming of these theologies created closedmindedness in me whenever someone would say something that was inconsistent with my habitual thinking of my beliefs.

I do understand about limiting beliefs and in challenging them can bring self-awareness, warts and all. I'm all for it.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

I'm really confused. I thought you believed in god being love and creativity?

The way I see this, is that the heart is representing good and the mind is representing bad which is just another take on god/satan. It's still represents a battle of good and evil. I'm very familiar with this battle and it's been raging for far too long.

I do understand about limiting beliefs and in challenging them can bring self-awareness, warts and all. I'm all for it.

I don't believe in God or disbelief that there is a God. Neither argument means anything to me.

I meant to say that God and Satan are metaphors for heart centered living vs mind centered living.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I don't believe in God or disbelief that there is a God. Neither argument means anything to me.

I meant to say that God and Satan are metaphors for heart centered living vs mind centered living.

Ok, glad to get that out of the way. Now if we could take the versus away from heart and mind and maybe learn to love in the mind too, we might be getting somewhere.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Ok, glad to get that out of the way. Now if we could take the versus away from heart and mind and maybe learn to love in the mind too, we might be getting somewhere.

The mind can help the heart find ways to express love. The mind as a servant is a wonderful servant.

But as the master, the mind acts without any heart....evil...satan....

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Ok, glad to get that out of the way. Now if we could take the versus away from heart and mind and maybe learn to love in the mind too, we might be getting somewhere.

Or perhaps even a step further notice there isn't actually a thing called mind. There's thoughts happening and there's emotions happening. The opposing issue between heart and mind is largely imagined and exaggerated.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Or perhaps even a step further notice there isn't actually a thing called mind. There's thoughts happening and there's emotions happening. The opposing issue between heart and mind is largely imagined and exaggerated.

I think the heart is really just a metaphor as well for a part of the mind.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

The mind can help the heart find ways to express love. The mind as a servant is a wonderful servant.

But as the master, the mind acts without any heart....evil...satan....

It causes a great divide in terms of master and servant. Our hearts and our minds both belong to us and by keeping them in opposition, the battle will continue.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Maguru

It causes a great divide in terms of master and servant. Our hearts and our minds both belong to us and by keeping them in opposition, the battle will continue.

When you know something, you don't think about it, right? You want to leave your room, you get up and leave, you don't think about it.

We think about what we don't know. The servant called the mind is called into think logically about the question presented to it.

The heart contains our longings and our mind is tasked with fulfilling them, expressing them. When each part does it's job, there's a harmony in the being.

But put the mind in charge of stuff it can't even see like freedom, love, truth, etc...and the mind takes us on a destructive wild goose chase called "the pursuit of happiness".

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Or perhaps even a step further notice there isn't actually a thing called mind. There's thoughts happening and there's emotions happening. The opposing issue between heart and mind is largely imagined and exaggerated.

Yes I would agree with everything you say but they are just words to describe what is experienced. I would add also that the 'idea' we have of a heart isn't actually a thing that feels good. It's just in the area of the heart, as we feel the mind in our head area.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

No, what I'm saying is that the force of good is called God and a theology is created around God. And the evil force in life is called Satan and a theology is created for him too.

Both are illusions. The reality it seems to me is that when we are heart centered, life is heaven. When we are logic/mind centered, life is hell. That there is no God to credit for the good and no Satan to blame for the bad.

It's good to live from the heart and bad to live from the mind.

Could you say what it means to live from the heart? I'm not disagreeing, just don't know what it means to you.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Yes I would agree with everything you say but they are just words to describe what is experienced. I would add also that the 'idea' we have of a heart isn't actually a thing that feels good. It's just in the area of the heart, as we feel the mind in our head area.

They are indeed just words. The difficulty is that those same harmless words believed in begin to alter and distort. In other words, it seems harmless enough to assign the term 'mind' to the process of thinking but very quickly and often subtly, the mind begins to take shape as a real entity we must deal with, cope with, master etc.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Could you say what it means to live from the heart? I'm not disagreeing, just don't know what it means to you.

Each of us is unique...I don't think anyone would dispute that.

The heart would be my unique way of creatively expressing my innate joy for life.

It would be doing what I love to do....where in doing, I'm still in the moment. Where I'm be-ing and do-ing simultaneously.

Speaking or typing is do-ing so it can be expressing myself in words.

Ultimately, it's me just being me.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

They are indeed just words. The difficulty is that those same harmless words believed in begin to alter and distort. In other words, it seems harmless enough to assign the term 'mind' to the process of thinking but very quickly and often subtly, the mind begins to take shape as a real entity we must deal with, cope with, master etc.

Mind isn't static though, so it does seems to have a life of its own.

Language is really difficult...constantly tripping us up.

I can't say "I" without talking egotistically but what word = the silence of the being? So we are stuck.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

When you know something, you don't think about it, right? You want to leave your room, you get up and leave, you don't think about it.

We think about what we don't know. The servant called the mind is called into think logically about the question presented to it.

The heart contains our longings and our mind is tasked with fulfilling them, expressing them. When each part does it's job, there's a harmony in the being.

But put the mind in charge of stuff it can't even see like freedom, love, truth, etc...and the mind takes us on a destructive wild goose chase called "the pursuit of happiness".

Doesn't the heart take you on a wild goose chase too? Who is in charge of the mind when it takes you on a wild goose chase? It may seem to have a mind of it's own but it doesn't exist apart from you, no more then the 'heart'. I think you have to give them equal value to bring both, and ourselves, into balance.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Each of us is unique...I don't think anyone would dispute that.

The heart would be my unique way of creatively expressing my innate joy for life.

It would be doing what I love to do....where in doing, I'm still in the moment. Where I'm be-ing and do-ing simultaneously.

Speaking or typing is do-ing so it can be expressing myself in words.

Ultimately, it's me just being me.

Okay, we've done away with 'God' and 'heart' as metaphors, which I see as good thingy. Now we're saying 'living from the heart' means me being me. And you're really saying in order for me to be me, some beliefs have to be dropped. Is that the essence of it?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Mind isn't static though, so it does seems to have a life of its own.

Language is really difficult...constantly tripping us up.

I can't say "I" without talking egotistically but what word = the silence of the being? So we are stuck.

Mind isn't static because it means 'thoughts in motion'; thinking happening. I say it would be a mistake to assign that thought process it's own life since it seems to turn it into an entity that we can identify with or be in opposition to.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

They are indeed just words. The difficulty is that those same harmless words believed in begin to alter and distort. In other words, it seems harmless enough to assign the term 'mind' to the process of thinking but very quickly and often subtly, the mind begins to take shape as a real entity we must deal with, cope with, master etc.

Yes it does, so much so that we even dis-own it.

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Doesn't the heart take you on a wild goose chase too?

If what we mean by heart includes feelings and desires, then yes, it certainly does. In fact, it's not thought that has us on the wild goosey chase of the pursuit of happiness. The entire pursuit is driven by 'heart' and as Ron says, the mind just carries out the plan. So it's not about living from thought or feeling, both of which will lead us astray.

[Maguru]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

If what we mean by heart includes feelings and desires, then yes, it certainly does. In fact, it's not thought that has us on the wild goosey chase of the pursuit of happiness. The entire pursuit is driven by 'heart' and as Ron says, the mind just carries out the plan. So it's not about living from thought or feeling, both of which will lead us astray.

We're pretty much all screwed then. Is there an alternative?