The feelings of right and wrong

[Trover]

There are two major groupings of thought on the subject.

One goes something like: “If it feels good do it.”

The other one was given to me by my own grandfather when I was contemplating divorcing my wife because it no longer “felt good” to be married to her. He said: “Do what is right, if it feels good, fine. If it doesn't feel good, keep doing it till it does.”

So we have the two concepts of:
1. morality... do what is right.
2. emotions... do what feels good.

Morality is whatever you make it. Emotions respond to whatever you give them. So, both morality and emotions are a choice.

The bottom line is simply... “I have chosen my moral code, not “because of” but “instead of” my emotions.”

Presently the situations with my God, my wife, my children, my church friends, my business and finances have devastated my emotional being. I am still hanging on to my chosen moral code. Why?

Is this life all there is? Do the choices I make in my life have an affect only on my life and only on this life? Am I therefore nothing more than an animal? Or do the choices I make in this life have an affect on the lives of others and the next life?

I've chosen my moral code, YHWH, bible, etc. not because it is the “right” way to go, but because I have chosen to believe that if I choose to give in to my emotional pressure to just go out and “wine -women- song” my emotions into ecstasy, that the end result of that will not only be that I will be even more miserable in my old age than I am now, but my wife and children and friends will be affected by it in a way that would not be morally or emotionally beneficial for them. And then of course we have the “next life” issue coming up short in the equation.

That's the intellectual side of why I've chosen the moral code that I have chosen.

There is a supernatural side to my choice as well. My experiences with the unseen world leaves me with an inability to deny its existence. Since my mind only has its own experience with which to process communicating these things with other men, at this point, until my experience changes, when someone suggests, “just stop believing in God” that's just not possible for me to do.

That which I perceive “God” to be, just IS. Whatever it is, IT IS. I can't just choose to believe that something that does exist, doesn't exist. I didn't hallucinate the things that I experienced, I experienced them.

When you touch something that is hot, you don't quickly touch it again to see if it is still hot. Why, because you are convinced that you “know” its still hot. Is it therefore still hot? Does “knowing” that it is still hot therefore make it still hot? Does it matter if it is still hot? No, because you're not going to find out because you still “believe” it is still hot. It doesn't matter whether or not it is or is not still hot because the reality of the next 15 minutes of your life is going to be spent in your “belief” that it is hot irrelevant to the “truth” as to whether or not it really is still hot.

I “choose” to “believe” that what “I perceive” “God” to be, “still” exists. I do that for many reasons but I will list three.
1.He/it existed when I admitted that I was a selfish person that was willing to hurt other people for my own gain, and when I did so a new peace, love, and joy like I had never known took the place in my life of the stress, fear, and anger that I had previously known as my life, and a "new" me emerged who was willing to be hurt for the gain of others instead of hurting them for my own gain!
2.He/it existed when He/it exploded that tornado right in front of me.
3.He/it existed when He/it took me out of my body, and being free of all physical limitations experienced a realm that is not known to the natural/carnal experience. Don't ask me explain this one... can't be done.


All three of those events now occupy a place in my life called “then.” I touched the “God” thing and it was very hot then. Back then He revealed Himself to me as YHWH. Today I have a whole new level of pain that I could never have comprehended back then. Is YHWH still hot... “now?”

I am willing to touch again to find out. I just don't know what the “touch” looks like.

At this point, the best I can understand, is that my professed "faith" in "YHWH" is being tested. If "YHWH" did a song and dance tornado spectacle in front of me, while giving me all sorts of nice pleasant emotional/spiritual highs, it wouldn't take a whole lot of "faith" to believe in that "God." But, what if He did all those wonderful things in my youth to simply acknowledge His undeniable existence, and then stepped back to see if I "really believed" or if I was just a religious moocher along for the "free lunch" as long as everything was easy?"



I know that every person who stumbles upon this thread will have deep, passionate, researched convictions about why they think that their understanding would “help” me. I appreciate all of that. Really I do. Its what makes us different than animals. But I have a special request. Before you post any replies, please first answer this question:

“Who or what exploded that tornado right in front of me...
...at the very point where my finger was touching it...
...at the very instant the words “In the name of Jesus you BREAK!” came out of my mouth...
...Who or what "waltzed the heavenlies" with me...
...Who or what transformed the core of my being to be one who is willing to suffer for others rather than letting them suffer for me?”


Have you ever stood in a fire and watched the skin burn off your bones when you weren't forced to be there? All you had to do was walk out of the fire and it would be over... and you really really wanted to walk out. But you chose to stay there simply because you believed it was “right?”

If you've never done that, then don't presume to “teach” me how to do it.

If you have done it, then don't tell me how I need to do it, tell me how you did it.

If you think it is a stupid thing to do, then you are entitled to your opinion. I see it as being neither a wise thing nor a stupid thing to do. It is simply a thing I have chosen to do. You have every right in the world to tell me why you think it is stupid. I may agree or disagree. But if you presume to tell me that I am wrong simply because your superior status dictates it to be so, you will only accomplish one thing... the loss of my respect.



Seriously, I want to hear everything you want to share, but those are three realities in my experience that "your opinions" are not going to change. So please, give me your answer to my question first... then give me your insights, because I do want to hear them. Thanks.

[SkylightMT]

Its a false dichotomy. You ARE doing what feels good (or at least, feels less bad).

It would cause you great discomfort to go against what you have labeled your moral code. More discomfort than to go with your moral code.

What if YHWH gave you your emotions to guide you into what he wants you to do? And every time you felt discomfort, it meant you weren't listening to him? What if instead of hearing the voice of god you are only listening to the voice makes you feel safe by keeping you in a role that no longer fits? How can you respond to the voice of god when you can't hear it, because you substitute listening with clinging desperately to things like, "its a test" and "I must do what's right."

Instead of, "I must always be listening for the voice of YHWH and doing what I am directed to do" you are stuck in "I must be a moral person."

[Trover]

[QUOTE=SkylightMT;1025995]Its a false dichotomy. QUOTE]

False?



Have you ever stood in a fire and watched the skin burn off your bones when you weren't forced to be there? All you had to do was walk out of the fire and it would be over. But you chose to stay there simply because you believed it was “right?”

If you've never done that, then don't presume to “teach” me how to do it.

If you have done it, then don't tell me how I need to do it, tell me how you did it.

If you think it is a stupid thing to do, then you are entitled to your opinion. I see it as being neither a wise thing nor a stupid thing to do. It is simply a thing I have chosen to do. You have every right in the world to tell me why you think it is stupid. I may agree or disagree. But if you presume to tell me that I am right or wrong you will only accomplish one thing... the loss of my respect.

[taylor]

You hold onto your morality because you have a conscience. That's a good thing.

Conventional Christian morality isn't going to let you "touch God" however unless taken to the extreme like Christ actually taught.

God is within and you experience Him by letting go of your personal self on a very deep and fundamental level. You must die to yourself completely.

The most important commandment is to "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind."

That's not a passive, "don't be a bad person" morality, it's an active constant surrender all the way to the depths of your existence.

If you want to reach God, you must "pray without ceasing" and "be a holy and living sacrifice" and "loose your life."

Forget about what your preacher says and instead read some Mother Teresa, The Gospels without commentary, the accounts of Christian mystics who have actually experienced what you want. Titles like The Way of the Pilgrim, The Practice of the Presence of God, The Cloud of Unknowing, Meister Eckhart, Saint Francis, Teresa of Avila, etc. These are all from people who have been there and not a one of them did so without great surrender.

Or if you're more liberal than I take you for, A Course in Miracles.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by taylor

God is within and you experience Him by letting go of your personal self on a very deep and fundamental level. You must die to yourself completely.

The most important commandment is to "Love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind."

That's not a passive, "don't be a bad person" morality, it's an active constant surrender all the way to the depths of your existence.

I don't even understand what I am saying but somehow I know it is my answer... the fact that I am still hurting is the proof that I am not dead to my "SELF."

How is it possible for me to know and to want to die to self, yet hang on so tightly?

Where is that power that will give me the ability to stand in the fire and stop worrying so much about the loss of all that skin?

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Trover

I don't even understand what I am saying but somehow I know it is my answer... the fact that I am still hurting is the proof that I am not dead to my "SELF."

How is it possible for me to know and to want to die to self, yet hang on so tightly?

Where is that power that will give me the ability to stand in the fire and stop worrying so much about the loss of all that skin?

This comes from constant practice. You can't let go of everything at once.

There are two opposing identifications: ego and Spirit. The more of ego you give up, the more Spirit can influence you. By turning over more and more to God, you gain more and more of His power.

When you currently think you don't have the power, what you're really meaning is that your ego doesn't have the power, which it really doesn't. Instead of you personally as ego trying to do this, you have to increasingly rely on God. It will come with time, constancy, and persistence.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Trover

How is it possible for me to know and to want to die to self, yet hang on so tightly?

The belief that the illusory image of self must be killed, controlled, dismantled or dealt with in any force or struggle is precisely what keeps it in place. Even though it was never truly real, your perception that it was does not make it seem any less so.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The belief that the illusory image of self must be killed, controlled, dismantled or dealt with in any force or struggle is precisely what keeps it in place. Even though it was never truly real, your perception that it was does not make it seem any less so.

By "dying to yourself" Christ isn't referring to attacking something, but letting it go.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by taylor

By "dying to yourself" Christ isn't referring to attacking something, but letting it go.

Tell me about your experience when you first became aware of "letting go."

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by taylor

By "dying to yourself" Christ isn't referring to attacking something, but letting it go.

I do realize that. What I was pointing to was the dilemma Trover seemed to be experiencing as well as the way the vast majority of people tend to end up interpreting it. The process of letting go to the person is never one of gracefully parting ways. It is marked by strife, confusion, terror and often depression and sadness. It can feel quite as real as actually facing death. When the person is done struggling, then perhaps the struggle may be seen to have been quite a humorous ordeal but certainly not during.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I do realize that. What I was pointing to was the dilemma Trover seemed to be experiencing as well as the way the vast majority of people tend to end up interpreting it. The process of letting go to the person is never one of gracefully parting ways. It is marked by strife, confusion, terror and often depression and sadness. It can feel quite as real as actually facing death. When the person is done struggling, then perhaps the struggle may be seen to have been quite a humorous ordeal but certainly not during.

Tell me about your own struggle. When/why/how did you notice that you weren't fighting any more?

[Trover]

Originally Posted by taylor

The more of ego you give up, the more Spirit can influence you.

I want to respond by asking you a question about this, but first, what would be your answer to my question, "Who/what did those three things in my life?"

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Trover

I want to respond by asking you a question about this, but first, what would be your answer to my question, "Who/what did those three things in my life?"

Let's see here

Originally Posted by Trover

“Who or what exploded that tornado right in front of me...
...at the very point where my finger was touching it...
...at the very instant the words “In the name of Jesus you BREAK!” came out of my mouth...
...Who or what "waltzed the heavenlies" with me...
...Who or what transformed the core of my being to be one who is willing to suffer for others rather than letting them suffer for me?”

1. It sounds like a miracle from God
2. I don't know. Are you saying you had a near death experience and there was another being with you in heaven? Many people have had this experience.
3. Again sounds like a miracle from a Higher Power

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Trover

Tell me about your experience when you first became aware of "letting go."

I guess like you, the basic process of saying no to something you want because it's wrong. At first in my spiritual life it was focused on basic behavioral compliance: be nice, go to church, help others, read spiritual books, don't think lustful thoughts, don't curse, etc. When you give up a bad habit, there is this personal clinging, this neediness you have that doesn't want to give it up. That to me is the energy of ego.

Selfishness, basically has a whole lot of cravings that it needs fulfilled to stay alive. We are all addicts in one way or another and to varying degrees. While conventional "nice" behavior teaches you basic surrender, it doesn't go nearly far enough to really get in touch with God. Behavior is external, while real surrender is internal, so changing behavior can only take you so far. The deeper level is giving up judgments, attack thoughts, defenses, personal stakes... parts of your psyche that have that "craving" aspect to them. This is what I would call learning forgiveness, or giving up your personal will about things.

Eventually you realize thinking itself has a craving aspect. You are in love with thinking and addicted to it. Those who go all the way with this learn silent prayer, the surrender of the craving behind thoughts. The more thoughts are surrendered, the more space you make for The Presence to fill. "Enlightenment" or "Eternal Life" or "Kingdom of Heaven" is when your personal ego completely dies, and you are reborn as Spirit or Pure Awareness or "I AM". It takes giving up that thinking energy, which is the foundation of your ego, to reach this. Needless to say, it's very rare to succeed in this dramatic way. I've teetered on the edge twice and failed both times due to fear.

That's the final goal, but leading up to it are all levels of surrender which are great in and of themselves. For example both The Way of the Pilgrim and The Practice of the Presence of God are written by people who never reached the ultimate goal, but who nevertheless had a constant sense of Presence and the joy and peace that this entails. They reached this level of saintly joy you might call it, by the simple practice of always keeping The Presence of God in mind. Simple, just takes constancy.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by taylor

1. It sounds like a miracle from God

That's my take on it!

Originally Posted by taylor

2. I don't know. Are you saying you had a near death experience and there was another being with you in heaven? Many people have had this experience.

No, I was just sitting there praying and all the sudden I was looking down on my body just sitting there and all sorts of fun things started happening. I'd love to discuss the whole thing, and especially how it came to an end, but not here, not now. Only to say that it my understanding that it was the same "Who/what" that caused the other two events, that we both agree must have been that "higher power we so love to call "God."

Originally Posted by taylor

3. Again sounds like a miracle from a Higher Power

That's my take on it!

Thankyou for your straight answer. I get precious few of those around here!

OK, now for my question,

You said, "The more of ego you give up, the more Spirit can influence you."
Is it a normal part of my growing process at this point to simply not know how to let go of my ego, even though I tell myself I really want to?

OK, I lied. I have two questions. Is it really my ego that is the problem?


I know this whole thing is convoluted, but hey, that's why I/we are here... helping one another walk through our convolutions to the other side. Thank you, BTW!

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Trover

You said, "The more of ego you give up, the more Spirit can influence you."
Is it a normal part of my growing process at this point to simply not know how to let go of my ego, even though I tell myself I really want to?

OK, I lied. I have two questions. Is it really my ego that is the problem?


I know this whole thing is convoluted, but hey, that's why I/we are here... helping one another walk through our convolutions to the other side. Thank you, BTW!

Lol "convolutions to the other side."

Yeah, it's normal. I wouldn't have known what I was talking about when I was more conventional behavioral focused. It took practicing some meditations and prayers to "get it." Before then I just did my best.

Yes, ego is the problem. There is nothing but your ego, or you could call it your selfish desires, that stands in the way of Union with God. If you notice the morality Christ taught always involved giving up your personal desires. I don't think this was a coincidence. The saints who report these Divine encounters by giving up to the extreme and my own experiences corroborate this. This selfishness blocks our awareness of The Presence and cuts us off from it. The only way to God then is to let go of these addictions and turn our attention towards Presence, the I AM within everything.

I honestly doubt this will make sense until you start quieting the mind or at least turning over personal will through prayer. The mind is used to giving attention to particular things and thoughts, rather than One all encompassing Divine Presence of light, awareness, beingness.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Trover

Tell me about your own struggle. When/why/how did you notice that you weren't fighting any more?

Quite honestly it was in the midst of the most powerful fear I had ever felt in what I perceived as 'my life'. In what would be three days of sleepless terror, my mind was spinning stories of descending into madness, losing everything, and a general sense that something horrific was going to occur which I couldn't quite put my finger on. Nothing had ever come close to this. I had even known that it might be this way but it didn't make a bit of difference. Then in an instantaneous moment it was simply noticed that these are just thoughts that are happening. There was neither an author of these thoughts nor did they have any actual power unto themselves. There wasn't actually anyone there to believe, choose or struggle with anything. All of the struggle, all of the fear, all of the thoughts were immediately seen to just be passing appearances upon which there had been a 'me' attached to at all times. The fear immediately vanished and a silent emptiness opened up.

Mind you, what I saw as my life was actually quite peaceful leading up to this. There wasn't an overwhelming need to escape anything but there was a very powerful sense that no matter what I did I would not be satisfied until I knew the truth. At a certain point though, desperation did strike quite profoundly and I knew there was no turning back. Of course, all of this now is seen as a story being created and believed in but it nevertheless felt quite real at the time.

The most interesting piece is that much of what I came to realize was already known to me conceptually. In other words, what I saw as my mind could look at fearful thoughts and rationalize that I was not those thoughts and to not worry about it. The process that was consistently being missed was that I was oblivious to my identification with the thoughts themselves that would say variations of 'you are not the mind', which obviously is still just the mind playing games. It had to be seen clearly that absolutely nothing that could be thought was true for the mind identification to break. It had to be seen that knowing who I was was not about struggling to figure anything out. It wasn't about obtaining knowledge. It was about letting go of all knowledge and understanding I had about myself so that what already was could be seen without distortion. It was about seeing that I am that quiet undivided emptiness upon which nothing can harm. You are that freedom, right here right now.

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Trover

So we have the two concepts of:
1. morality... do what is right.
2. emotions... do what feels good.

Morality is whatever you make it. Emotions respond to whatever you give them. So, both morality and emotions are a choice.

Not so fast.

First a fine point, morality is only what you make of it IF you actually chose it. Many just accept what they are told and never bother to question it.

Emotions are a summary of your current state. Biology reinforces behavior that led to ‘positive’ emotions and discourages behavior that leads to ‘negative’ emotions. The ‘problem’ is that emotions are in the now and often do not direct us to the best long term or overall outcome. That high-calorie fat filled dessert sure is tasty, but not very healthy for you. Emotions are biological invention to guide organisms in their behavior. As such, they are NOT a choice, just a state of being. Acting on those emotions is choice. Education, experience, or conditioning can influence and modify your emotional response. Watch children to observe this process.

Originally Posted by Trover

The bottom line is simply... “I have chosen my moral code, not “because of” but “instead of” my emotions.”

I believe that you have chosen your moral code. Choosing a moral code that denies emotions is certainly possible but probably not recommended. Not all situations have a clear moral right or wrong. Example: your favorite color. Emotions are usually better guides than guessing. True, emotions can mislead your moral choices but they can also inform them. Most would say that consistent ‘bad’ feelings are letting you know that you ought to take better care of yourself. I suggest allowing both by making moral choices based on all available input including your emotions.

Most moral codes include respect for life and for individuals (people at least). From a moral point of view it is acceptable to allow yourself to come to harm only if you are preventing others from coming to more harm (sacrifice). Under these terms allowing yourself to be diminished solely because of your ongoing choice does not qualify as moral. It’s easy to start down the road of sacrifice but hard to recognize when you are failing to respect yourself. You are just as worthy as anyone else.

Originally Posted by Trover

Is this life all there is? Do the choices I make in my life have an affect only on my life and only on this life? Am I therefore nothing more than an animal? Or do the choices I make in this life have an effect on the lives of others and the next life?

I've chosen my moral code, YHWH, bible, etc. not because it is the “right” way to go, but because I have chosen to believe that if I choose to give in to my emotional pressure to just go out and “wine -women- song” my emotions into ecstasy, that the end result of that will not only be that I will be even more miserable in my old age than I am now, but my wife and children and friends will be affected by it in a way that would not be morally or emotionally beneficial for them. And then of course we have the “next life” issue coming up short in the equation.

That's the intellectual side of why I've chosen the moral code that I have chosen.

There is a supernatural side to my choice as well. My experiences with the unseen world leaves me with an inability to deny its existence. Since my mind only has its own experience with which to process communicating these things with other men, at this point, until my experience changes, when someone suggests, “just stop believing in God” that's just not possible for me to do.

Questions as to your ultimate fate have been argued for eons. Since no one has proven anything, it comes down to your experience and your beliefs. If you are unsettled about these issues, the most successful strategy is to seek more experience, specifically seek those that might address your doubts. If your intuition does not tell you where to look, start with where other tell you they looked and found help.

Originally Posted by Trover

That which I perceive “God” to be, just IS. Whatever it is, IT IS. I can't just choose to believe that something that does exist, doesn't exist. I didn't hallucinate the things that I experienced, I experienced them.

Your experiences are as real as you are.

Originally Posted by Trover

When you touch something that is hot, you don't quickly touch it again to see if it is still hot. Why, because you are convinced that you “know” its still hot. Is it therefore still hot? Does “knowing” that it is still hot therefore make it still hot? Does it matter if it is still hot? No, because you're not going to find out because you still “believe” it is still hot. It doesn't matter whether or not it is or is not still hot because the reality of the next 15 minutes of your life is going to be spent in your “belief” that it is hot irrelevant to the “truth” as to whether or not it really is still hot.

Actually some people do reach out again and even the first time already knowing its hot. I had a girlfriend that so liked pizza, she would not wait for it to cool before taking a bite. Almost every time she burned her mouth. As soon as the mouthful cooled enough to swallow it, she took another bite. Sometimes this meant she further burned her mouth.

Having experienced that something was hot means you know it WAS hot, not that it IS hot (now). Experience tells us that hot things tend to stay hot so most of us choose to cautious over being burned again.

Originally Posted by Trover

All three of those events now occupy a place in my life called “then.” I touched the “God” thing and it was very hot then. Back then He revealed Himself to me as YHWH. Today I have a whole new level of pain that I could never have comprehended back then. Is YHWH still hot... “now?”

I am willing to touch again to find out. I just don't know what the “touch” looks like.

I assume you believe that YHWH is everywhere?? If so, start by looking inside yourself to see where you end and YHWH begins. If you can look deep enough you will recognize him. Having the experience of divine (God) being inside you is one of those profound things that you will always know. Everyone I talked to who has done this says it greatly improved the quality of their lives.

Originally Posted by Trover

At this point, the best I can understand, is that my professed "faith" in "YHWH" is being tested. If "YHWH" did a song and dance tornado spectacle in front of me, while giving me all sorts of nice pleasant emotional/spiritual highs, it wouldn't take a whole lot of "faith" to believe in that "God." But, what if He did all those wonderful things in my youth to simply acknowledge His undeniable existence, and then stepped back to see if I "really believed" or if I was just a religious moocher along for the "free lunch" as long as everything was easy?"

It not your faith in YHWH being tested, it’s your faith in yourself. Do you believe that you are worthy?

Originally Posted by Trover

Have you ever stood in a fire and watched the skin burn off your bones when you weren't forced to be there? All you had to do was walk out of the fire and it would be over... and you really really wanted to walk out. But you chose to stay there simply because you believed it was “right?”

Not quite that extreme, but yes. It was necessary in the larger picture to get where I wanted/needed to go.

Finally: Do not allow what you know to get in the way of who you are.

[raykilleen]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

The fear immediately vanished and a silent emptiness opened up.

Cool, the ultimate defense mechanism, Truth.

[raykilleen]

Is there a God? Is there a me? Then who are we and what is going on?

[bodi]

Originally Posted by raykilleen

Cool, the ultimate defense mechanism, Truth.

Yeah. You know, I haven't been too sure about you up to now, Chris, (based on the (very) little of your posts I have read in passing) but brother, that sure sounds like kensho to me. I will look more closely at your posts in the future.

To address the OP. It is my opinion that all of the experiences you describe could be attributed to latent, unrecognized psychic powers in humans just as easily as to "God".

Peace and love when you admit your a schmuck? Of course. Nobody likes a schmuck.

Everybody wants to fit in and have community with other humans. We are social creatures, after all, from a biological perspective. Just like bees and ants. We need each other.

Your subconscious knew you were screwing up your chances of being happy (outside of a cave by yourself, because nobody likes a schmuck) and was naturally relieved when you admitted it.

Not to mention those psi vibes from the collective field for a positive connection to help the endorphin's along.

The tornado? You believed (belief in anything works, if its strong enough) enough to activate psychokinesis. Maybe you did it.

The realm outside physical limitations? Astral projection.

Have you ever stood in a fire and watched the skin burn off your bones when you weren't forced to be there? All you had to do was walk out of the fire and it would be over... and you really really wanted to walk out. But you chose to stay there simply because you believed it was “right?”

Literally? No.
Metaphorically? Yes.

How? Strong, strong motivation. Wouldn't you walk through fire to save your child? Or lift a car off them?

[Trover]

Originally Posted by taylor

Needless to say, it's very rare to succeed in this dramatic way. I've teetered on the edge twice and failed both times due to fear.

That's the kind of honesty I am looking for and can relate to. The advise is great, and I am still pondering it and am sure I will continue. But at this moment I just want to say thankyou for the realness. I am not alone.

I think I can understand what you are saying by "teetered but failed" but l can only understand you to the degree my experience compares to yours. Part of the reason I am so baffled by what I am going through now, is because five years ago I thought I was ready to die because I had attained that state of perfect peace to the point that I didn't think there could be anything better.

It was in that state of humbled brokeness that I saw the remainder of my "carnal life" (that part of me that still did the thinking) for the corrupt pile of trash that it really was.

That is when I expressed my desire to be free of all of it. I had no clue at the time what I was contemplating, but He did!

I still have no clue as to what is really going on with me, I only have my perceptions of it.

Originally Posted by taylor

That's the final goal, but leading up to it are all levels of surrender which are great in and of themselves.

Do you think that the "high calling" that the apostle Paul was referring to and your '"final goal" are adressing the same thing?


As far as my perceptions of myself go, I only know that I have not attained anything that could be called "the highest calling" or the "final goal." Unless it is something that you walk in at times and not other times. Because that which I have walked in felt like "the high calling" at the time I was walking in it.

Deep down, I believe that when I am ready, I will pass this one, as I have passed the last ones. Its just that this one blows the socks off the pain, fear, anger, bitter scale.

The thing that is just difficult for me to process is that I can handle a lot of what some of you guys are saying,but only in the intellect. It's like I can stand there and see it just in front of me, but when I take a step towards it four semi trucks loaded with pain have a four-way collision on my head. As much as I understand that I am not that pain, and I just need to walk away from it... are you ready for this??? I can't!

I hate myself for saying it, but something is missing at the point of my opportunity to just let go and be. Instead, I hang on to the pain, and it crushes my hope, my joy, my peace and I just stand there ashamed at what a looser I am. Why can I not just let go.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Trover

Why can I not just let go.

Because you are not the cause of letting go. It just happens. Trying to make yourself let go is accomplishing the opposite.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by Trover

Do you think that the "high calling" that the apostle Paul was referring to and your '"final goal" are adressing the same thing?

I can only guess what Paul was talking about there in Philippians. Was he referring to salvation after physical death, or enlightenment, or both. I find it hard to tell because he is both very practical in trying to help people keep the faith and good behavior, and at the same time he hints at his own mystical experience which runs deeper.

Originally Posted by Trover

I hate myself for saying it, but something is missing at the point of my opportunity to just let go and be. Instead, I hang on to the pain, and it crushes my hope, my joy, my peace and I just stand there ashamed at what a looser I am. Why can I not just let go.

Don't beat yourself up. There are just certain things that you still identify with. For example you say "I am not that pain" and then you say you need to walk away from it. A Buddhist would tell you rather than trying to get rid of the pain, basically just let it be there. "It hurts. So what?" That I think is the more detached perspective you would have if you really weren't identified with it.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Quite honestly it was in the midst of the most powerful fear I had ever felt ... three days of sleepless terror... my mind was spinning stories of descending into madness, losing everything, and a general sense that something horrific was going to occur.....

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

It was about seeing that I am that quiet undivided emptiness upon which nothing can harm. You are that freedom, right here right now.

Thank you for the time you spent to share that with me. I've read it several times and felt like you were in the room with me and I wanted to put my arm around you and share the pain that you were describing. I am encouraged beyond what I can tell you to know that you broke through it and have found peace. Keep a spot ready for me, I'm coming there too!

You want to hear something funny? The first time I felt that about you was in SaborWolf's thread when Mr. “I go to church and know Jesus so I know all the answers to everyone's problems” said something really embarassingly dumb, and you said, “gathers popcorn and waits for the show.” Funny as hell, but at that moment I laughed out loud and said, “that's my brother!”

I've already read what you wrote in response to my questions a couple of times. There are some things in there that I know are speaking to me, I just can't quite hear them yet. But I will read them again until I do.

This might seem odd, but do you consider that “quiet undivided emptiness” to be the “final goal” of life, or do you consider it to be the only pure garden in which real life can begin to grow?

I will listen to, and honestly consider every word you share with me. I want to communicate back and forth with you but let me tell you how I do it. When I read a letter from someone who took the time to respond to me, I try to put all the other letters out of my mind and completely dedicate my communication with just that one person. There is one thing at this point that will help me to relate to you as a real person, rather than just trying to make up some imagined meaning behind your cyber words...

Please try to give me as simple and as straight forward answer as possible to my question as to “Who/what do you believe it was that did those three things in my life that now cause me to believe that there is something more out there than a personalityless puff of Truth, but causes me to believe that there is in fact a conscious, thinking spirit entity that seeks to have a personal relationship with me?”

[Trover]

Originally Posted by wstein

Under these terms allowing yourself to be diminished solely because of your ongoing choice does not qualify as moral. It’s easy to start down the road of sacrifice but hard to recognize when you are failing to respect yourself. You are just as worthy as anyone else..

I am so glad you brought that up! I have thought about this, yet it is not a cut and dried analogy I have given you. Let me try again. Any relationship requires a certain level of sacrifice if it is going to be a true loving relationship, as “sacrifice” is inherent in “love.” But can you tell me where to draw the line when one of those persons in the relationship is doing all the giving and the other does not return the gift? How long does one continue to give without receiving (sacrifice) before it changes from “love” to self diminishing? I know this is a hard one because each relationship is 100% unique, but the principle that has to be processed is, “if a little sacrifice is love, then why isn't a lot of sacrifice a lot of love?”

Originally Posted by wstein

It not your faith in YHWH being tested, it’s your faith in yourself. Do you believe that you are worthy?.

I think that I do see your point, and if so, I agree with it. I think you are saying that faith has little to do with YHWH's worthiness to receive it, or His need to prove anything, but in my ability to put my full confidence and trust in that which He has already proven Himself to be. Is that what you were getting at?

But then you asked, “do you believe that you are worthy?” That one stopped me for a minute. I had to ask, do I feel worthy? No. But I can intellectually say that of course I am worthy because I am no different than any man, and YHWH created all mankind for His pleasure. So if He thinks I am worthy, then I just want to get to the place where my feelings no longer block the worthiness that already dwells within me, so that it will both satisfy me, and please Him.

Originally Posted by wstein

Finally: Do not allow what you know to get in the way of who you are.

Please elaborate on that one. It hits my brain just like, “Would you please hand me that piano?”

Sharing words with someone you don't know is, in essecense still having a relationship with yourself. Because, when I don't know you, your words only mean what I decide to make them mean. But when you have a relationship with someone, their words become gifts of their life to yours.

I am trying to make all of these words that you are offering me do that, but there is something that you can do to help me do my part of building a real relationship between us. You are obviously very deep thinker but I want to know not just the thoughts, but the life that is behind them. Will you do me a favor, and try to answer my question about “Who or what do you believe is that “force or spirit or whatever” that did those things that caused me to believe that there is a personal God?”

[Apopohis Reject]

Trover: Why can I not just let go.

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Because you are not the cause of letting go. It just happens. Trying to make yourself let go is accomplishing the opposite.

That's an interesting point right there. We think it's a struggle to let go, but in reality it's the opposite that is going on. We are struggling to hang on whilst trying hard to convince ourselves we don't want to.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

That's an interesting point right there. We think it's a struggle to let go, but in reality it's the opposite that is going on. We are struggling to hang on whilst trying hard to convince ourselves we don't want to.

Indeed. The struggle is the struggle to keep the obvious from being obvious as long as possible. Letting go is nothing more than ceasing to project ones own delusion upon what already is. When will this stop for any particular person? Nobody can say, so just enjoy the ride. This is what is meant by there is nothing you can do. Not that the person needs to tie their hands up and go stare at the wall.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by bodi

To address the OP. It is my opinion that all of the experiences you describe could be attributed to latent, unrecognized psychic powers in humans just as easily as to "God".

First of all, thank you for answering my question first. I appreciate that. Now we need to work on my end of the “communcation” process. You are saying it, but I'm not getting it. You are using some big words that may in fact connect with some concepts that I already understand, but at this point I can't be sure. If I do understand them already, great, we can go from there. If not, you'll have to spend some time explaining what you mean to me by your use of “latent unrecognized psychic powers.”

Originally Posted by bodi

Your subconscious knew you were screwing up your chances of being happy (outside of a cave by yourself, because nobody likes a schmuck) and was naturally relieved when you admitted it.

I am totally serious here so don't think I'm being snippy, but is this really a direct response to something I said, or is it something that just fits the situation in your own mind? I don't even understand how to respond to it yet. But I would like to.

Originally Posted by bodi

Not to mention those psi vibes from the collective field for a positive connection to help the endorphin's along.

OK, let's just say I scored zero on this one.

Originally Posted by bodi

The tornado? You believed (belief in anything works, if its strong enough) enough to activate psychokinesis. Maybe you did it.

There's those big words again. But I don't care how big the word is, I find it hard to believe that I can conjure the forces of reality to make a tornado explode. Did I “photokenissifywhatever” that tornado because I believed so strongly that I could? No. As a matter of fact I wish I could tell you the whole story of the twelve hours before that incidense so you could see that a very smart mind greater than my own, coriographed the whole thing for the specific purpose of showing ME the difference between MY faith, and the real power behind EVERYTHING... including photokawhatever and all the other words you smart guys know put together! IMHO

Originally Posted by bodi

The realm outside physical limitations? Astral projection.

OK, maybe. If this had been an isolated event in my life, I might be very open to hear about Astral projection. However, it is not possible for me to do that, because that experience does not dwell in my consciousness alone. The fact that it happened to ME, as well as the tornado happened to ME, as well as my personality change happened to ME, ALL while devoting my heart, my soul, my strength, and my mind to seeking to understand this guy called YHWH, its pretty hard to believe that one event didn't, in some way, fit into the whole package of my life.

Originally Posted by bodi

If you think you're enlightened....you're not....

AMEN brother! Preach that one from the mountain tops!!!

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Because you are not the cause of letting go. It just happens. Trying to make yourself let go is accomplishing the opposite.

Great point! Makes sense, but sense don't make ability.