No man can teach, but we can all learn.

[Trover]

Truth is a reality in and of itself that will work through us if we do not get in its way by thinking that we can take control of it and become teachers of other men. When we ourselves live our lives in accord with truth, then truth itself cannot do anything but what it is... shine like light. When other men see it, they can learn from it if they have “ears to hear.” But if they are simply “seeking to hear or to tell some new thing,” then they will not actually hear Truth, but be led astray by the intellectual understanding of some new concept about it. They will then exalt themselves to teacher status and perpetuate the unending cycle of "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

“Nothing more hinders a man
from finding the Truth
than thinking he has already found it.”


1Cor.8:2
“If any man thinks he knows any thing,
he knows nothing yet
as he ought to know.”

[qwertyportne]

No man can teach? That's not how I experienced teaching or learning. People have taught me and I have taught others, in personal, professional, spiritual and technical contexts. The evidence is that I was able to do what my teachers taught me, and that my students became able to do what I taught them.

Moreover, I am skeptical of the word truth in any context, with or without a capital T. Truth is like a lizard who runs away leaving its tail in your fingers.

What you might be saying is “The things we learn for keeps are those we experience for ourselves.” If so, I agree. Teaching is creating opportunities for others to explore and discover things in their way, not necessarily ours. Our way is only a launching pad, a model for their learning.

Perhaps you are also saying "When the student is ready, a teacher will come." If so, I agree again, because I experience that over and over again. When I open myself to the possibility of something, I hear synchroncity knocking at my door.

So I hope you are also saying that when the teacher is ready, a student will come. When somebody seeks my advice, for example, I entertain the possibility that am ready to watch what I know travel from my head and hands to theirs.

May I add that we are not ready if we are standing in a pulpit, six feet above contradiction, answering questions nobody is asking. Perhaps I have just done that. If so, in the words of Jim Carrie, “Somebody stop me!”

--Bill

[Andras]

True, spiritual matters are tricky when considering a teacher. If you seek, there will be a way shown to you, but how you perceive those is entirely up to you. In addition; knowledge is not the ultimate to covet. Act, and love; then you will be on the right track. If you do not act upon what you know is righteous, your knowledge will be useless.
I have had a great teacher in person (!), who taught me, what he called the ancient wisdom in the form of Agni Yoga. But I had to and have moved on, as I have learned everything he could give me, which is never enough. It was however a great base to go from.
"When the consciousness is bedimmed, when the higher concepts seem far removed, at least ponder about unity in actions of good.
It is unthinkable to turn away from all that brings strength.
There can be no lasting labor in the name of dissension; unacceptable is dust at the threshold.
When you get ready for the long journey, wipe away all dust in order to leave a clean place behind you.
Thus, in all the manifestations of life let us remember about the Center of Knowledge and Justice — about Brotherhood." from Signs of Agni Yoga - Brotherhood

Originally Posted by Trover

Truth is a reality in and of itself that will work through us if we do not get in its way by thinking that we can take control of it and become teachers of other men. When we ourselves live our lives in accord with truth, then truth itself cannot do anything but what it is... shine like light. When other men see it, they can learn from it if they have “ears to hear.” But if they are simply “seeking to hear or to tell some new thing,” then they will not actually hear Truth, but be led astray by the intellectual understanding of some new concept about it. They will then exalt themselves to teacher status and perpetuate the unending cycle of "ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

“Nothing more hinders a man
from finding the Truth
than thinking he has already found it.”


1Cor.8:2
“If any man thinks he knows any thing,
he knows nothing yet
as he ought to know.”

[Trover]

Originally Posted by qwertyportne

That's not how I experienced teaching


Moreover, I am skeptical of the word truth in any context, with or without a capital T. Truth is like a lizard who runs away leaving its tail in your fingers.

What you might be saying is

Perhaps you are also saying

So I hope you are also saying

--Bill

Yes, as a matter of fact I like the way you said it better! Thank you!

[Trover]

Originally Posted by Andras

True, spiritual matters are tricky when considering a teacher. If you seek, there will be a way shown to you, but how you perceive those is entirely up to you. In addition; knowledge is not the ultimate to covet. Act, and love; then you will be on the right track. If you do not act upon what you know is righteous, your knowledge will be useless.
I have had a great teacher in person (!), who taught me, what he called the ancient wisdom in the form of Agni Yoga. But I had to and have moved on, as I have learned everything he could give me, which is never enough. It was however a great base to go from.
"When the consciousness is bedimmed, when the higher concepts seem far removed, at least ponder about unity in actions of good.
It is unthinkable to turn away from all that brings strength.
There can be no lasting labor in the name of dissension; unacceptable is dust at the threshold.
When you get ready for the long journey, wipe away all dust in order to leave a clean place behind you.
Thus, in all the manifestations of life let us remember about the Center of Knowledge and Justice — about Brotherhood." from Signs of Agni Yoga - Brotherhood

Yes again! That is why I love these forums. To hear those who have, and are, walking the same paths I am and listen to their observations along the way that I missed! Thank you for sharing brother.

[wstein]

Trover, if this is true, why did you post this information?

It appears you do not believe what you wrote.

Teaching is bringing a student to the truth. Learning it is up to them. I have taught and learned in this way.

[ChristsLight]

Who is there to get in the way of Truth?

If there is the appearance of one person teaching and another person learning, does it really mean that someone has taught and someone has learned?

Can Truth really be given or taken away? Can it really be taught or learned?

[Trover]

Originally Posted by wstein

Trover, if this is true, why did you post this information?

It appears you do not believe what you wrote.

Teaching is bringing a student to the truth. Learning it is up to them. I have taught and learned in this way.

I choose to learn from what you wrote, thank you for writing it.

Yes, I am a hypocrite and I hate that. But if I live long enough, maybe I will learn from it... possibly you will be a part of that?

What does it mean to "believe." I think I do believe what I wrote. A more interesting question would be, "what do you think I meant by what I wrote?"

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Who is there to get in the way of Truth?

Since you used "Who" I will say "he" is a spirit inside my thoughts that causes me to think concepts that are contrary to the well being of myself and/or others. "Truth" is a spirit inside my thoughts that always seeks the well being of myself and/or others. Therefore IF I understand what you are asking, I would say that "he" is always in the way of, not Truth per se, but my ability to comprehend Truth.

Remember, you used the word "who." Had you used the word "what" I would have used the word "it." Up to you. So, I ask you, is it a "He" or is it an "it?"

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Can it really be taught or learned?If there is the appearance of one person teaching and another person learning, does it really mean that someone has taught and someone has learned?

That's a good one! And I would like to answer that in my own sophisticated erudite sort of way. Idunno! You asked the question. You know what you were getting at when you asked it. So I would like to hear your opinion of the answer to the question. Does the appearance of learning (whatever that is) really mean that it happened?

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Can Truth really be given or taken away?

Yes! But can I do it? No! Though I am constantly doing it, it cannot be done! IMHO!

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Truth is infinite. As such, it cannot be added from one thing or subtracted from another.

That is pretty much what I am getting at in this whole thread. Truth is what it is irrelevant to what we think it is. The only error is calling our understanding of it the same thing as it. To claim to be able to "teach" it, is to put finite boundries around "it."

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

Since you used "Who" I will say "he" is a spirit inside my thoughts that causes me to think concepts that are contrary to the well being of myself and/or others. "Truth" is a spirit inside my thoughts that always seeks the well being of myself and/or others. Therefore IF I understand what you are asking, I would say that "he" is always in the way of, not Truth per se, but my ability to comprehend Truth.

Remember, you used the word "who." Had you used the word "what" I would have used the word "it." Up to you. So, I ask you, is it a "He" or is it an "it?"

Now we're just concept weaving.
When I meant "who", I was referring to your idea of a person who can get in the way of truth.

But now that we have more concepts to work with, then who is this "he", and how does "he" able to get in the way of truth?

Is it possible for truth to be possessed?

Originally Posted by Trover

That's a good one! And I would like to answer that in my own sophisticated erudite sort of way. Idunno! You asked the question. You know what you were getting at when you asked it. So I would like to hear your opinion of the answer to the question. Does the appearance of learning (whatever that is) really mean that it happened?

Or the mind could turn in upon itself and contemplate the question. Some questions are not meant to be answered, but to be pondered.

So if Trover appears to learn something because someone else has appeared to teach him, does it really follow that someone has taught and Trover has learned?

Originally Posted by Trover

Yes! But can I do it? No! Though I am constantly doing it, it cannot be done! IMHO!

Now we're speaking paradoxes. How can you do it, yet it cannot be done by you? Who is giving and who is taking away? How is it possible for truth to be dealt in such a way?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

That is pretty much what I am getting at in this whole thread. Truth is what it is irrelevant to what we think it is. The only error is calling our understanding of it the same thing as it. To claim to be able to "teach" it, is to put finite boundries around "it."

And yet, you somehow believe that someone can get in the way of infinite truth, and that it can be given and taken away. What is the difference between giving truth, and teaching it?

Also, my quote says in its second statement "it cannot be added to one thing or subtracted from another." If truth can be given, is this not the same as "adding" it to someone who did not previously possess it?

[Frisky]

Originally Posted by Trover

“Nothing more hinders a man
from finding the Truth
than thinking he has already found it.”


1Cor.8:2
“If any man thinks he knows any thing,
he knows nothing yet
as he ought to know.”

Ludicrous, none of these verses say you cant teach others.

All they allude to is not to get too arrogant, or to rest on your laurels

[FlabRoshi]

It's fine to argue and pontificate so long as you maintain a consistent, effective daily practice.

In time, the practice will reduce the need to mentate over these things, or not.

In short, do the practice and then go about your life.

And if your life is arguing about dross like this, well so be it.

May your arguing be mindful, inspired, and joyful!

[wstein]

Originally Posted by Trover

Yes, I am a hypocrite and I hate that. But if I live long enough, maybe I will learn from it... possibly you will be a part of that?

We are about to see.

Originally Posted by Trover

What does it mean to "believe." I think I do believe what I wrote.

I think the title is close to what you believe. You probably believe what you wrote about the ‘truth’ being a thing in and of itself available to all but only accessible to those who are ready and able to receive it.

Originally Posted by Trover

A more interesting question would be, "what do you think I meant by what I wrote?"

I think you meant that you are getting frustrated by the truth eluding you. Further you are fed up with education and teachers that are unable to help you with this situation. The quotes seem to be an attempt to reveal the identity of the teachers that are most problematic in your life currently.

You have not revealed enough to be real specific as to your actual issue. The Bible quote suggests that you are struggling with your faith as it does not reveal the truth you want to know.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by Frisky

Ludicrous, none of these verses say you cant teach others.

All they allude to is not to get too arrogant, or to rest on your laurels

I do need to appologize for not making it clear that I was referring only to teaching Truth.

If you take what I say in that context, you can agree or disagree, but it is not ludicrus. I am trying to focus on the futility of man thinking that he can teach "Truth."

I am not saying that man cannot teach anything. Men can teach what they know. It works really well in math, science, trade skills etc. Since man cannot know truth, only make observations of it, then he cannot teach it. He can only share his unique understanding of it with others.

John Calvin thought he was teaching Truth. So did Jacob Herman (Arminianism). So have endless Christian preachers. But were they all teaching Truth? Were all of them wrong, except one, and that one guy had it all together? Or were they all simply doing the best they could with a finite mind having limited resources? I think they were teaching their perceptions of Truth that they erroniously claimed to be Truth.

If a man's claim of Truth happens to have mixed within it a few concepts that in fact do not square with actual Truth, then when he calls his teaching "Truth" he is in fact calling the lies within his teaching "Truth."

Its not what we know that is "wrong" per se, it is presuming to know more than we do, and calling it something that it is not that always works destruction in the lives of everyone that makes that presumption... either the teacher or the student.

Truth is capable of doing what it has always done on its own. It doesn't need our "help."

[Trover]

Originally Posted by wstein

I think the title is close to what you believe. You probably believe what you wrote about the ‘truth’ being a thing in and of itself available to all but only accessible to those who are ready and able to receive it.

Wow, did I say that? It sounds so much better when you say it.

Originally Posted by wstein

I think you meant that you are getting frustrated by the truth eluding you. Further you are fed up with education and teachers that are unable to help you with this situation. The quotes seem to be an attempt to reveal the identity of the teachers that are most problematic in your life currently.

You're damn straight on that one!

Originally Posted by wstein

You have not revealed enough to be real specific as to your actual issue.

Give me time. I fear the temptation of "revealing" too much.

Originally Posted by wstein

The Bible quote suggests that you are struggling with your faith as it does not reveal the truth you want to know.

"Very perceptive my dear wstein"

I really hope that you do not perceive me to be arrogant and "snippy." I am really enjoying the banter

[Trover]

Originally Posted by FlabRoshi

It's fine to argue and pontificate so long as you maintain a consistent, effective daily practice.

In time, the practice will reduce the need to mentate over these things, or not.

In short, do the practice and then go about your life.

And if your life is arguing about dross like this, well so be it.

May your arguing be mindful, inspired, and joyful!

There I was enjoying your pontificating and then you called my pontification dross! Man, you are really making it tough on me when I'm thinking that I agree with you and then you call my thinking "dross."

Ne'r the less, thank you for the blessing and please, feel free to stop by any time and drop a little dross on my pontifications of the mindful and/or mindless mentating of these meaniful mutations of Truth.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

And yet, you somehow believe that someone can get in the way of infinite truth, and that it can be given and taken away. What is the difference between giving truth, and teaching it?

Also, my quote says in its second statement "it cannot be added to one thing or subtracted from another." If truth can be given, is this not the same as "adding" it to someone who did not previously possess it?

You really just have fun saying things that don't really say anything they just make people spend time trying to figure out what the heck it was that you just said. And you really don't care if they figure out what you said or not, because it wasn't your intent to say anything in the first place. All you wanted was for them to spend some time figuring what it is that they actually believe themselves.

How close am I?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

You really just have fun saying things that don't really say anything they just make people spend time trying to figure out what the heck it was that you just said. And you really don't care if they figure out what you said or not, because it wasn't your intent to say anything in the first place. All you wanted was for them to spend some time figuring what it is that they actually believe themselves.

How close am I?

Close. My job is to deconstruct your beliefs, and show you that you never really knew them to be true in the first place, and that they are just holding you back from perceiving the Truth.

So most things I say will simply reflect your beliefs back on yourself and invite you to question whether they are really true or if you can move beyond them.

[FlabRoshi]

Originally Posted by Trover

There I was enjoying your pontificating and then you called my pontification dross! Man, you are really making it tough on me when I'm thinking that I agree with you and then you call my thinking "dross."

Ne'r the less, thank you for the blessing and please, feel free to stop by any time and drop a little dross on my pontifications of the mindful and/or mindless mentating of these meaniful mutations of Truth.

I know it.

Well recovered.

I've had a similar suspicion about some of ChristsLight's posts.

EDIT: damn it, now I've used the word "suspicion" which could contextualise ChristLight as insincere or shady. These language games are getting the better of me.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Close. My job is to deconstruct your beliefs, and show you that you never really knew them to be true in the first place, and that they are just holding you back from perceiving the Truth.

So most things I say will simply reflect your beliefs back on yourself and invite you to question whether they are really true or if you can move beyond them.

People like me must make your job pretty easy!

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

People like me must make your job pretty easy!

The job is always easy. Everyone's beliefs are mere houses of glass masquerading as impermeable fortresses.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

The job is always easy. Everyone's beliefs are mere houses of glass masquerading as impermeable fortresses.

I think I understand what you are saying in that, but one question... if that is true, how do you know that your understanding of it is correct?


OK, I do, I really really do enjoy reading your posts, and they are beneficial to my life, but I have to know something. From your own perception of yourself, do you see yourself as having a duty, goal, calling, or mission to help others understand something correctly that you have already come to the correct understanding of, or do you see yourself as having nothing else to do on a sunday evening so you decided to entertain yourself by pontificating your own personal opinion on a subject that you know very little about, and the real entertainment would come if someone were to actually get something out of all that dribble that actually benefited their life?

If they did get something out of it, would you respond to that in your own mind with, “just goes to show what a great teacher I am.” Or would you say, “shoot fire, I can't believe that they actually got anything out of all that nonsense... hm, guess there is a god after all!!!”

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

I think I understand what you are saying in that, but one question... if that is true, how do you know that your understanding of it is correct?


OK, I do, I really really do enjoy reading your posts, and they are beneficial to my life, but I have to know something. From your own perception of yourself, do you see yourself as having a duty, goal, calling, or mission to help others understand something correctly that you have already come to the correct understanding of, or do you see yourself as having nothing else to do on a sunday evening so you decided to entertain yourself by pontificating your own personal opinion on a subject that you know very little about, and the real entertainment would come if someone were to actually get something out of all that dribble that actually benefited their life?

If they did get something out of it, would you respond to that in your own mind with, “just goes to show what a great teacher I am.” Or would you say, “shoot fire, I can't believe that they actually got anything out of all that nonsense... hm, guess there is a god after all!!!”

Neither of those really. The motivation has arisen in the life of ChristsLight to help people to see beyond their beliefs (see What is Christ's Light?), so in that way it is similar to the first one.

But the more I do the work I feel called to do, the more I know that it is not I who does it. As I do this, and as I write on my Web site, and as I write my book on healing, something simply comes through me. You can call it inspiration, you can call it intuition, you can call it Holy Spirit for Christians. But the source is not the person called ChristsLight (Brandon in real life).

So when someone gets it, I do not think, "What a great teacher I am," but I think, "Thank you for using me." I take no credit for anything because that would simply be wrong, because I do nothing of my own.

[Trover]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Neither of those really. The motivation has arisen in the life of ChristsLight to help people to see beyond their beliefs (see What is Christ's Light?), so in that way it is similar to the first one.

But the more I do the work I feel called to do, the more I know that it is not I who does it. As I do this, and as I write on my Web site, and as I write my book on healing, something simply comes through me. You can call it inspiration, you can call it intuition, you can call it Holy Spirit for Christians. But the source is not the person called ChristsLight (Brandon in real life).

So when someone gets it, I do not think, "What a great teacher I am," but I think, "Thank you for using me." I take no credit for anything because that would simply be wrong, because I do nothing of my own.

Well, respectfully, I am convinced that you are convinced of something, I'm just not yet convinced of what it is! But I'm still listening.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Trover

Well, respectfully, I am convinced that you are convinced of something, I'm just not yet convinced of what it is! But I'm still listening.

I am convinced that there is no one to be convinced of anything.

[Apopohis Reject]

I'm not sure if the following could be called a belief, but I'm absolutely darn certain of it as a fact.

We are all here right now and we are all engaging each other on some truly awaesome discussions, and we are all here - together by a superior DESIGN, and we are all (ok I can only speak for myself by rights) learning about some truly new realities about ourselves and humanity in general, and even though we can become a little heated and testy at times, we are all waking out of a slumber - TOGETHER, helping each other wake up from a sleep of which some (probably most) of us didn't so much as have awareness previously.

What does that indicate for me? Well, we are at an exceptionally pivotal point in history - THE PIVOTAL POINT in fact, about which we generally aren't even aware. Indeed this probation period of our human existence is about to close. The door is about to shut tight, which will usher in an entirely new era in which exists no time whatsoever, for it will surely be ETERNAL. In the Hebrew scriptures it is called 'The time of the end' (look it up), and we, yes indeed WE presently stand on this very doorstop - right now.

This has NOTHING to do with religion and NOTHING to do with fear, and NOTHING to do with how we've related to ourselves - ever in the past, or indeed even to existence. So what is happening for us on this site, within us individually, and for folk further afield? Well, REALITY is happening - the unbridled, objective universe is revealing HIMSELF, unveiling HIS secrets to us through these discussions. Be excited, be humbled, be thankful, be eager for more, for there surely is so much more unveiling still to happen for us.

I am personally, more than well aware that this will be a little hard to swallow for some, so believe it or not, but do NOT mock, do NOT ignore, do NOT sneer as some are inclined, for your future and those of your loved ones depends upon your mind staying open, eager, thankful - to continue receiving the awesome unveling, of which such as Buddha, Gandhi, Eienstein, Aristotle and the like would have desired to be a part, yet they missed out - on what we are shortly about to experience.

Hey Brandon, when next conversing with Jesus, I suggest you ask him directly about this post.

[Apopohis Reject]

Further to the above, and be advised I've not read this post (#106 - Subjectivity vs Objectivity) as yet, but thought it looked very exciting just after posting the above...

Here!

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

I'm not sure if the following could be called a belief, but I'm absolutely darn certain of it as a fact.

We are all here right now and we are all engaging each other on some truly awaesome discussions, and we are all here - together by a superior DESIGN, and we are all (ok I can only speak for myself by rights) learning about some truly new realities about ourselves and humanity in general, and even though we can become a little heated and testy at times, we are all waking out of a slumber - TOGETHER, helping each other wake up from a sleep of which some (probably most) of us didn't so much as have awareness previously.

I've never heard you utter a truer word.

Not sure about the rest, but I agree with this.