Are you an effect or a cause?

[ChristsLight]

Is it you who puts things into motion, or are you merely the effect of something already in motion?

When you do something, are you causing something else to occur, or is that doing arising as an effect of something already in motion?

When you heal someone, are you really healing them, or is the act of healing an effect of the "healing" already being in motion, and simply expressing itself through some medium?

Are there any causes in the world of appearances, or are all effects?

Here is my discussion on the matter: Daily Inspiration #50: You are an Effect, not a Cause

I'm interested in your thoughts.

[Luciddd]

At this very momment I am an effect, otherwise I wouldnt be using a physical vessel.

[Anagogy]

We are both.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

At this very momment I am an effect, otherwise I wouldnt be using a physical vessel.

Care to explain? Of what are you an effect?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

We are both.

In what way? How are you a cause?

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Care to explain? Of what are you an effect?

The me that is writing this post, is an effect. Simply my existence as a human being is the proof, which wouldnt be possible without my body being the effect of my parents mating, or the mind creating a reality.

[FlabRoshi]

In human sense, cause and effect is useful distinction.

In absolute, neither cause or effect.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

In what way? How are you a cause?

If separation is truly an illusion, you can't be one and not the other. Saying you are just an effect reinforces the idea of separation.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

If separation is truly an illusion, you can't be one and not the other. Saying you are just an effect reinforces the idea of separation.

Maybe only one who feels separated will ponder this question. Both question and answer belong to the conceptual realm.

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Maybe only one who feels separated will ponder this question. Both question and answer belong to the conceptual realm.

Indeed, at oneness you wouldnt be cause or effect, you would be nothing and yet everything.

How ironic, that the highest state seems to be the only one that most resemble true "death".

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Is it you who puts things into motion, or are you merely the effect of something already in motion?

When you do something, are you causing something else to occur, or is that doing arising as an effect of something already in motion?

When you heal someone, are you really healing them, or is the act of healing an effect of the "healing" already being in motion, and simply expressing itself through some medium?

Are there any causes in the world of appearances, or are all effects?

Here is my discussion on the matter: Daily Inspiration #50: You are an Effect, not a Cause

I'm interested in your thoughts.

I would have to say both, for when it comes to our humanity, the question itself leaves out the medium - which indeed we are. Yet if I was to be pinned down on one, I'd choose effect, even though I doubt that to be a complete answer.

What I mean is that we are the conduit between the primary cause and effect, so in that sense we are more effect, yet we make choice to act and that action is the reason changes eventuate, so to that extent we are at the same time, the secondary cause.

[Arz Sra]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Is it you who puts things into motion, or are you merely the effect of something already in motion?

When you do something, are you causing something else to occur, or is that doing arising as an effect of something already in motion?

When you heal someone, are you really healing them, or is the act of healing an effect of the "healing" already being in motion, and simply expressing itself through some medium?

Are there any causes in the world of appearances, or are all effects?

Here is my discussion on the matter: Daily Inspiration #50: You are an Effect, not a Cause

I'm interested in your thoughts.

Cause and effect are two inter-dependent events. Without the one in picture the other has no meaning.. You are an effect for sure and you are a cause for sure.. The only thing that varies is --- Cause for = ? , Effect of = ?... Cause-effect is just minds way of interpreting events and it may not provide the big picture.

Personally I think you are just a ring in the cause-effect chain.. This cause-effect chain is nothing but a spontaneous unfolding which we try to understand by marking some points as cause and some as effect ( often both).. cause-effect is an interpretation of this spontaneous unfolding.. Even the interpretation is a part of that same unfolding..

By spontaneous I mean , it JUST IS.. Nothing caused it. It always was.. Logically speaking its not 'possible' that anything can just be there without being put there.. But if there were to be a cause behind everything then what caused the very first thing.. there has to be something that was not CAUSED.. that was always there..

[ChristsLight]

I think I need to clarify that when I say "you" in my OP, I mean the individual "you", the mind/body that appears to identify as a separate self.

I agree that in true oneness there is no cause and effect. But as the appearances arise, I think the individual self looks much more like an effect than a cause.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

The me that is writing this post, is an effect. Simply my existence as a human being is the proof, which wouldnt be possible without my body being the effect of my parents mating, or the mind creating a reality.

By being an effect, I'm saying that you are what you are, not because you chose to be so, but because it is what was arising without you choosing.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

I would have to say both, for when it comes to our humanity, the question itself leaves out the medium - which indeed we are. Yet if I was to be pinned down on one, I'd choose effect, even though I doubt that to be a complete answer.

What I mean is that we are the conduit between the primary cause and effect, so in that sense we are more effect, yet we make choice to act and that action is the reason changes eventuate, so to that extent we are at the same time, the secondary cause.

This is what I'm getting at. Do you, can you, make a choice to act?

[FlabRoshi]

Oh, well in the absolute sense there is no free will.

But in the relative sense there is a scale of choice.

Children have very little. Adults have more. And adults who practice various techniques that increase awareness (e.g. meditation, therapy, etc) might gain even more choice.

This is reflected in courts of law. A minor is not considered to be responsible for their own actions in the way an adult is.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by FlabRoshi

Oh, well in the absolute sense there is no free will.

But in the relative sense there is a scale of choice.

Children have very little. Adults have more. And adults who practice various techniques that increase awareness (e.g. meditation, therapy, etc) might gain even more choice.

This is reflected in courts of law. A minor is not considered to be responsible for their own actions in the way an adult is.

How can there be no free will in an absolute sense, yet free will in the relative sense?

Is it really free will, or only the appearance of it?

[RonSouther]

We can be both....if we are floating with life, we express spontaneously ("God's" will) through our natural gifts and desires that we don't decide....we play the hand that existence dealt us.

If we are fighting life (human will), then with our logic we are thinking that doing "this" will achieve "that" and when "that" doesn't happen, we blame anything except our logic.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

We can be both....if we are floating with life, we express spontaneously ("God's" will) through our natural gifts and desires that we don't decide....we play the hand that existence dealt us.

If we are fighting life (human will), then with our logic we are thinking that doing "this" will achieve "that" and when "that" doesn't happen, we blame anything except our logic.

Ron, you are expressing exactly what I am trying to say.

But if we are expressing God's will, are we really causing anything, or are we just and expression of the cause in the world?

The most important question for me is, do we really choose whether we are "floating with life" or whether we are resisting?

I have no answer. It's just interesting.

In one sense one could say that this is the only choice possible. But is it really even a choice?

Did I really choose to believe in what I am saying here? In a sense, I can see how I did not. I can see the line of progressive realization, completely independent of myself. First was the admission that everything is perfect how it is, when I was reading the book Loving What Is. Then was the realization, as I began to practice hoʻoponopono, that we really can't choose, and that choice is made even before it reaches the conscious mind. Then that there is no choice at all, and "we" are only an expression of what is—of what seems to be arising in being.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

In one sense one could say that this is the only choice possible. But is it really even a choice?

Did I really choose to believe in what I am saying here? .

I can see in me that it is not my choice to want to be creative. Seeing the creativity in me and around me in the whole of nature, creativity that aimed at expressing love or making the world better, is how I feel the presence of "God", of the Divine, and it's how I feel truly that I'm part of the whole of existence. I really see that just because my body appears separate, it is totally dependent on the nature and not separate at all. I have to work with my nature and the nature around me to survive. And again, spiritually, "creativity" is the whole manifested in me.

The mind is about "choice" as the mind doesn't know truth and life seems to be about choice when logic is king. "Choice" is simply deciding which guess to go with, which belief to go with. Based on our current understanding of life, the gap in our understanding is filled with multiple guessing as the mind can't predict the future, then choice is about sizing up which logical guess is likely to be successful.

In the true "let-go", we are letting go of logic running our lives. That's not from a choice to let go because logic is the process of "choice". So the true let go will be from the ability to see that you're not "logic" and that logic is a tool, but not a life, and that life is infinite compared to mere logical thoughts. Logic will be seen then as a guess, not a truth, and guesses will be used to help you try to find truth in a continual process of trial and error.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

I can see in me that it is not my choice to want to be creative. Seeing the creativity in me and around me in the whole of nature, creativity that aimed at expressing love or making the world better, is how I feel the presence of "God", of the Divine, and it's how I feel truly that I'm part of the whole of existence. I really see that just because my body appears separate, it is totally dependent on the nature and not separate at all. I have to work with my nature and the nature around me to survive. And again, spiritually, "creativity" is the whole manifested in me.

The mind is about "choice" as the mind doesn't know truth and life seems to be about choice when logic is king. "Choice" is simply deciding which guess to go with, which belief to go with. Based on our current understanding of life, the gap in our understanding is filled with multiple guessing as the mind can't predict the future, then choice is about sizing up which logical guess is likely to be successful.

In the true "let-go", we are letting go of logic running our lives. That's not from a choice to let go because logic is the process of "choice". So the true let go will be from the ability to see that you're not "logic" and that logic is a tool, but not a life, and that life is infinite compared to mere logical thoughts. Logic will be seen then as a guess, not a truth, and guesses will be used to help you try to find truth in a continual process of trial and error.

Can the mind ever really choose, though?

[elucidate]

I think we are both at different times. How can we help it to not be both? We all do things which cause other stuff to happen, and then we are all at the effect of stuff others have caused to happen. This is a constant thing in life, for everyone. Most don't really consider the mechanics of this though, so they don't really appreciate it.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

Can the mind ever really choose, though?

It IS the choice maker. If you really know, you don't choose, you just do.

Like you're in a room with windows, walls and doors. You want to leave the room. You already know that the door is the easiest way out because of your experience. So you don't choose the door because there is no guess about which to use to leave. You're not confused about whether to go throught the wall...you figured that out a long time ago that it doesn't work well. You've climbed out a window before and you know that it's possible but a lot of trouble and may be dangerous.

So when it's time to leave the room, you head straight for the door.

Now contrast that with being in dark unfamiliar room that you want to leave. You can't see anything. So your mind is left to guess which direction to go first. You won't be going in one direction with a fix belief pattern that this IS the direction dogmatically. You will be in a process of trial and error, learning as you go. With enough persistence, if there really is a way out, then you will find it.

Life is about starting out in the dark and through a process of trial, error, and witnessing, we bring light into the darkness. That's the process of leaving ignorance and becoming intelligence, of leaving fear in favor of joy.

That's the path. Without knowing the method to travel on the path, then life is about guessing which belief is the one to go with....and what does the marketplace do? It offers us a variety of belief systems to be our "light" but that light is false because it didn't come from our own growth. "Light" can't be given, it must be realized. So beliefs are false light and beliefs systems trap us into thinking the light is on when really we are groping in the dark. To have a community of believers in the dark with us makes the dark less scary.

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I think we are both at different times. How can we help it to not be both? We all do things which cause other stuff to happen, and then we are all at the effect of stuff others have caused to happen. This is a constant thing in life, for everyone. Most don't really consider the mechanics of this though, so they don't really appreciate it.

The question is, can you really cause anything to happen?

[ChristsLight]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

It IS the choice maker. If you really know, you don't choose, you just do.

Like you're in a room with windows, walls and doors. You want to leave the room. You already know that the door is the easiest way out because of your experience. So you don't choose the door because there is no guess about which to use to leave. You're not confused about whether to go throught the wall...you figured that out a long time ago that it doesn't work well. You've climbed out a window before and you know that it's possible but a lot of trouble and may be dangerous.

So when it's time to leave the room, you head straight for the door.

Now contrast that with being in dark unfamiliar room that you want to leave. You can't see anything. So your mind is left to guess which direction to go first. You won't be going in one direction with a fix belief pattern that this IS the direction dogmatically. You will be in a process of trial and error, learning as you go. With enough persistence, if there really is a way out, then you will find it.

Life is about starting out in the dark and through a process of trial, error, and witnessing, we bring light into the darkness. That's the process of leaving ignorance and becoming intelligence, of leaving fear in favor of joy.

That's the path. Without knowing the method to travel on the path, then life is about guessing which belief is the one to go with....and what does the marketplace do? It offers us a variety of belief systems to be our "light" but that light is false because it didn't come from our own growth. "Light" can't be given, it must be realized. So beliefs are false light and beliefs systems trap us into thinking the light is on when really we are groping in the dark. To have a community of believers in the dark with us makes the dark less scary.

Is there really a mind with which to choose?

[VinceG]

Neither. I am a meat popsicle.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by ChristsLight

How can there be no free will in an absolute sense, yet free will in the relative sense?

Is it really free will, or only the appearance of it?

What is the difference between fake free will, and real free will, from an experiential standpoint? What would appear different, ChristsLight?

Absolutely nothing. A virtual simulation of separation and free will is just like the real deal in the world of appearances.

Therefore, it is just as valid to say we do have it, as it is to say we don't in my humble opinion.

It's all a game we are playing with our-self. I suppose saying we don't have free will could be a nice realization for someone who has a lot of guilt, and wants to absolve themselves of it.

[jeff3]

Both.

I am the result of all the thoughts and descisions of my past, and before that I was the result of the thoughts and actions of my parents and to some extent others in my enviroment.

I am a cause so long as I continue to think and do.

I think

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Maybe only one who feels separated will ponder this question. Both question and answer belong to the conceptual realm.

Exactly. Reconciling the issue of free will is entirely bound to the identification as a separate self. The difficulty is if someone still identifies as a separate self but has conceptually convinced themselves that they are not separate. Being able to 'get it' logically is not actually helpful but serves to create even more confusion and dissonance. A satisfactory ending to this perceived problem will never be reached within the realm of the mind. However free will appears to one should merely be accepted as is. Even if there is much confusion about it.

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Being able to 'get it' logically is not actually helpful but serves to create even more confusion and dissonance.

What a wonderful way to rationalize not thinking. But thinking is bad, right?