Subjective vs. Objective reality

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

The churlish antics in the thinly veiled guise of humour, yet are surely underpinned by an negligent sense of gross superiority on this forum, are becoming exceedingly tedious.

Just saying, is all.

Churlish antics
thinly veiled
guise of humor
superiority forum
Just saying
is all.

[Apopohis Reject]

Another thought...
There is a wonderful movie available from (I believe) BBC called 'The Amazing Brain', which was once available in full on Youtube. Again, there appears to be merely snippets of it now.

Particularly interesting for myself; in this video we can watch actual new-born neurons emerge in turn, and then somehow attach themselves to the precise axon (out of many million choices) and then systematically work it's way along this axon to the precise point at which it will live for the fullness of the life of that brain/fetus/being.

In the movie the scientist explains with awe that this neuron, just a few seconds old, already knows (my explanation)/has already been instructed by the brain (her interpretation) about all the details of what it's to do, and I would add to this: it also already KNOWS all of the details it will EVER need to do.

Well in the process, the scientist is asking the question about HOW this new-born neuron knows, for even though this two second old neuron KNOWS, the scientist; with all here billions of neurons working together and all her years of study and working on these things - somehow does NOT. Now right there for me, is the truly amazing thing. So why?

Why indeed.

Of course she puts it down to instinct (I think she calls it), which for mine was more than enough to forever entirely discount the notion of instinct, by whatever definition.

Here is a portion of this movie, however again it unfortunately does NOT include the section to which I make reference above, and has only the part with poorly dramatised images of the neurons in action .

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Of course she puts it down to instinct (I think she calls it), which for mine was more than enough to forever entirely discount the notion of instinct, by whatever definition.

What do you think they mean when they say it's instinct?

Isn't it just a way of saying that they don't know?

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Beingist

Ah, welcome, Reject, to the Spirituality, Consciousness, & Awareness subforums of Steve Pavlina's Personal Development for Smart People Forums.

Indeed, there are some real characters around here, but we still love 'em, nonetheless.

Generously stated, and thank you my friend.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Reefs

What do you think they mean when they say it's instinct?

Isn't it just a way of saying that they don't know?

Well that may be so, in which case I would have no problem. However for mine, they (scientists) go way past this point, for in their mentality exists a delusion, in that they effectively believe they do know, and can even explain it in totality. And now you ask; 'how do they know?'

Because they can point their finger at - instinct, is how.

For mine, this presents as yet another clear example of the abundance of dissonance with which we all need to deal daily - that is unless we can find a cure for it??? But how are we going to begin looking for a cure if we can't so much as recognise there is a problem in the first instance?

[seeds]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Once this eventuates however, the results (I'm convinced) will put your toothpick/butterfly demonstration and ALG's wall apparition very much in the dark.

Apopohis Reject,

I greatly appreciate your intelligent approach to "the quest," so to speak.

I even appreciate ALG and his extremely insightful and heartfelt beliefs. He is a great source of information and inspiration to many people on this forum, including me.

What I don't think either of you understand (and probably don't really care about ) is the crazy perspective from which my arguments come from.

I believe that you, ALG, ALG's wife, and every other human ever born on the face of this planet, possess within the matrix of your minds, the inherent potential to create an entirely new universe of earths and galaxies (out of your own mental essence) sometime in the context of your eternal lives.

Therefore, the assertion of humans performing such simplistic and trifling "paranormal" feats listed by ALG, is utterly nothing compared to our ultimate abilities.

Does anyone have a problem with me proclaiming that your ultimate and eternal potential is beyond our present ability to understand?

My main contention is that our ultimate potential cannot be fully applied, nor fully realized within the limiting constraints of our present bodies in the context of this universe.


seeds

[arpee]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Another thought...
There is a wonderful movie available from (I believe) BBC called 'The Amazing Brain', which was once available in full on Youtube. Again, there appears to be merely snippets of it now.

I searched for some of it on YouTube and it is amazing and probably it is intuition.

Maybe I'm not following along... but how does this relate a subjective reality?

Wouldn't that mean that the brain is perceiving of an objective world?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well that may be so, in which case I would have no problem. However for mine, they (scientists) go way past this point, for in their mentality exists a delusion, in that they effectively believe they do know, and can even explain it in totality. And now you ask; 'how do they know?'

Because they can point their finger at - instinct, is how.

For mine, this presents as yet another clear example of the abundance of dissonance with which we all need to deal daily - that is unless we can find a cure for it??? But how are we going to begin looking for a cure if we can't so much as recognise there is a problem in the first instance?

It's an absolutely awesome example about the neuron, and about the way scientists make their conclusions.
Yes, where to start from? We cannot make a single step without drowning in the unknown. Only Oneness, meditations, things like that can keep us on the surface. Just my 0.02.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by seeds

Apopohis Reject,

I greatly appreciate your intelligent approach to "the quest," so to speak.

I even appreciate ALG and his extremely insightful and heartfelt beliefs. He is a great source of information and inspiration to many people on this forum, including me.

What I don't think either of you understand (and probably don't really care about ) is the crazy perspective from which my arguments come from.

I believe that you, ALG, ALG's wife, and every other human ever born on the face of this planet, possess within the matrix of your minds, the inherent potential to create an entirely new universe of earths and galaxies (out of your own mental essence) sometime in the context of your eternal lives.

Therefore, the assertion of humans performing such simplistic and trifling "paranormal" feats listed by ALG, is utterly nothing compared to our ultimate abilities.

Does anyone have a problem with me proclaiming that your ultimate and eternal potential is beyond our present ability to understand?

My main contention is that our ultimate potential cannot be fully applied, nor fully realized within the limiting constraints of our present bodies in the context of this universe.


seeds

But how do you know that the potential is eternal? how to believe those fairy tales until we have our own experience? I have information from the first hand that there will be only Black Nothingness, instead of eternity.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well that may be so, in which case I would have no problem. However for mine, they (scientists) go way past this point, for in their mentality exists a delusion, in that they effectively believe they do know, and can even explain it in totality. And now you ask; 'how do they know?'

Because they can point their finger at - instinct, is how.

Right.

For mine, this presents as yet another clear example of the abundance of dissonance with which we all need to deal daily - that is unless we can find a cure for it??? But how are we going to begin looking for a cure if we can't so much as recognise there is a problem in the first instance?

If you don't see the dissonance you don't feel the need to cure the dissonance.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by seeds

Does anyone have a problem with me proclaiming that your ultimate and eternal potential is beyond our present ability to understand? My main contention is that our ultimate potential cannot be fully applied, nor fully realized within the limiting constraints of our present bodies in the context of this universe.

So you are basically saying that you don't know and cannot know what you are talking about and proclaiming here?

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by arpee

I searched for some of it on YouTube and it is amazing and probably it is intuition.

Maybe I'm not following along... but how does this relate a subjective reality?

Wouldn't that mean that the brain is perceiving of an objective world?

I think it is perceiving it, but doesn't want to share the secret.

Seriously, there were the researches made.Natalia Bekhtereva who is the leading specialists in brain investigation in Russia came to the conclusion that the origin of thought is beyond the brain, and beyond the human. She wrote a book "Magic of the Brain". She was the Head of the main scientific Institute which was doing brain studies in Russia at the time when atheism was the main "religion" , and to be the Head of such an Institute a person was supposed to be an atheist, communist, and so on. However she, using scientific methods, had to admit that the results of the investigations prove the fact that the source of thought is beyond the human brain and human body.

So, the brain perceives its own thoughts from the outside of the brain, it has been proved by science, and we can do nothing about it.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by seeds

Apopohis Reject,

I greatly appreciate your intelligent approach to "the quest," so to speak.

I even appreciate ALG and his extremely insightful and heartfelt beliefs. He is a great source of information and inspiration to many people on this forum, including me.

What I don't think either of you understand (and probably don't really care about ) is the crazy perspective from which my arguments come from.

I believe that you, ALG, ALG's wife, and every other human ever born on the face of this planet, possess within the matrix of your minds, the inherent potential to create an entirely new universe of earths and galaxies (out of your own mental essence) sometime in the context of your eternal lives.

Therefore, the assertion of humans performing such simplistic and trifling "paranormal" feats listed by ALG, is utterly nothing compared to our ultimate abilities.

Does anyone have a problem with me proclaiming that your ultimate and eternal potential is beyond our present ability to understand?

My main contention is that our ultimate potential cannot be fully applied, nor fully realized within the limiting constraints of our present bodies in the context of this universe.


seeds

Now seeds, please explain why you reference a reply to my post, which in turn was expressing PRECISELY the same thoughts as the one in which you tell me I don't understand?

I'll tell it to you plainly - I do NOT understand everything - as yet! Neither does anyone - as yet!

That is NOT to say that the potential to do so is not already written in every atom of our being, for it is my assertion that this is the very case. As you are well aware, I currently call this 'The Universal/Eternal Warehouse of Objective Perception', you might simply call it (no HIM) 'INTELLIGENCE' and yet another might call HIM - LIFE!

Further I will state the following; INTELLIGENCE is in itself INTELLIGENT, is not a 'thing' that happens spontaneously like we tend to assume in ignorance. Also LIFE is INTELLIGENT, that is - HE KNOWS! And this is precisely why the neuron KNOWS onto which axon to attach itself, and already KNOWS how far to move along that axon, and already KNOWS where to stop for the rest of the life of that brain, and already KNOWS everything it will ever need to KNOW, and also - why we also have an innate ability to KNOW! Well kinda, so far.

When we work out how to tap into this universal 'KNOWING', we will then - KNOW, and the amazing potential of which you speak, will surely be unleashed.

Of this I am certain, yet until such time as we work out this reality in self, we continue to live in a condition of inherent disease, abounding dissonance, choking fear and unavoidable death.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Reefs

If you don't see the dissonance you don't feel the need to cure the dissonance.

And therein lies the problemo!

[Luciddd]

Seems like Seeds is the James Randi of the forum, I would never have imagined it really.

Originally Posted by seeds

Apopohis Reject,

I greatly appreciate your intelligent approach to "the quest," so to speak.

I even appreciate ALG and his extremely insightful and heartfelt beliefs. He is a great source of information and inspiration to many people on this forum, including me.

What I don't think either of you understand (and probably don't really care about ) is the crazy perspective from which my arguments come from.

I believe that you, ALG, ALG's wife, and every other human ever born on the face of this planet, possess within the matrix of your minds, the inherent potential to create an entirely new universe of earths and galaxies (out of your own mental essence) sometime in the context of your eternal lives.

Therefore, the assertion of humans performing such simplistic and trifling "paranormal" feats listed by ALG, is utterly nothing compared to our ultimate abilities.

Does anyone have a problem with me proclaiming that your ultimate and eternal potential is beyond our present ability to understand?

My main contention is that our ultimate potential cannot be fully applied, nor fully realized within the limiting constraints of our present bodies in the context of this universe.


seeds

Oh I didnt saw it, well this is basically what I believe too. But then if you believe in that potential, what is wrong with being able to affect the physical reality?

I dont know if true, but my cousing claimed to have actually shattered telekinetically a glass by uttering a sentence. Holographic Universe is filled with those accounts.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

And therein lies the problemo!

Well, you seeing dissonance doesn't mean that there actually IS dissonance (for others). Couldn't that be the problemo mas grande?

[Arcanum]

Originally Posted by Irisha

Oh, I AM interested. If you could be so kind as to tell more about it here, or PM me too, I'd appreciate.

Maybe I'll start a thread on it so that we don't get arrested by the off-topic police.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Arcanum

Maybe I'll start a thread on it so that we don't get arrested by the off-topic police.

Forum history shows that as long as you put in some woo woo you are safe.

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Luciddd

But then if you believe in that potential, what is wrong with being able to affect the physical reality?.

To affect the physical reality in the way that is beyond your current potential violates some subtle structures of the Universe, which will have to restore its harmony anyway,- so it may be not to your benefits, and is not recommended.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Irisha

So, the brain perceives its own thoughts from the outside of the brain, it has been proved by science, and we can do nothing about it.

Ah, but right there is the very point Irisha - we ARE doing something about it constantly. What's more, without any doubt, we have it in our power to cease doing what we are.

Once we cease doing what we are doing, the entire universe of unlimited knowledge and potential, will surely open up for our consciousness and experience.

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Well, you seeing dissonance doesn't mean that there actually IS dissonance (for others). Couldn't that be the problemo mas grande?

Well you haven't read all my posts on this then, have you? Or at the very least, you haven't understood them.

But then why would you? After all you spend most of your time trying to tickle up anyone with whom you don't feel comfortable.

So in the famous words of another forum member - carry on!

[Irisha]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Ah, but right there is the very point Irisha - we ARE doing something about it constantly. What's more, without any doubt, we have it in our power to cease doing what we are.

Once we cease doing what we are doing, the entire universe of unlimited knowledge and potential, will surely open up for our consciousness and experience.

You just are not able to NOTICE that your thoughts arrive in mind 0.000000005 sec. after they have been projected into your brain.
Have been proved by Benjamin Libet, the recent research.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well you haven't read all my posts on this then, have you? Or at the very least, you haven't understood them.

But then why would you? After all you spend most of your time trying to tickle up anyone with whom you don't feel comfortable.

As I said, you seeing dissonance doesn't mean that I do.

So in the famous words of another forum member - carry on!

That's Orca!

[Luciddd]

Originally Posted by Irisha

To affect the physical reality in the way that is beyond your current potential violates some subtle structures of the Universe, which will have to restore its harmony anyway,- so it may be not to your benefits, and is not recommended.

Again, I understand, however I am simply saying about the possibility of it. It is not new, Holographic Universe, etc. Again being possible, disputing the other part of your claim.

[arpee]

Originally Posted by Irisha

I think it is perceiving it, but doesn't want to share the secret.

Seriously, there were the researches made.Natalia Bekhtereva who is the leading specialists in brain investigation in Russia came to the conclusion that the origin of thought is beyond the brain, and beyond the human. She wrote a book "Magic of the Brain". She was the Head of the main scientific Institute which was doing brain studies in Russia at the time when atheism was the main "religion" , and to be the Head of such an Institute a person was supposed to be an atheist, communist, and so on. However she, using scientific methods, had to admit that the results of the investigations prove the fact that the source of thought is beyond the human brain and human body.

So, the brain perceives its own thoughts from the outside of the brain, it has been proved by science, and we can do nothing about it.

Interesting. Some scientist believe in the quamtum field. That there is a field which is connecting everything. Einstein believed too but called it "quantum foam"


This would mean that we are all energy and eternal beings. I already believe this, but is thought really affecting the reality?

I saw a rice experiment and they had 3 jars of rice with water, they said "Love" "Hate" and ignored the other.

Those words did indeed have an effect, proving that our words have energy, but are they really "affecting" the reality?

Or is it just sending energy/emotion?

If a person were to say to the water "become ice" can they really do this regardless of the temperature?

I believe in energy/emotion/spirit but I'm unsure of how much we can effect the reality now... so I'm not sure if it's 100% subjective...

[Irisha]

We, words, reality,- are all the same. All is inseparable. Sure, we affect the reality with words, and the reality through these words is affecting us at the same time, simultaneously with our affecting it.
Sending energy, emotions is also affecting the reality, even in a stronger way than words if we are viewing it being humans living on the Earth.
Freezing the water is as easy as making the water to boil for those who can do it.

[Reefs]

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

Well you haven't read all my posts on this then, have you? Or at the very least, you haven't understood them.

But then why would you? After all you spend most of your time trying to tickle up anyone with whom you don't feel comfortable.

So in the famous words of another forum member - carry on!

Originally Posted by Apopohis Reject

As far as other forums, I spent a couple of years writing, but I was not very welcome, especially by one contributor who it seemed was permitted to be silly with me, so I gave up over a year ago, I believe it was.

Seems you have some blind spots and revive your past wherever you go. That's the problemo!

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by arpee

I searched for some of it on YouTube and it is amazing and probably it is intuition.

Maybe I'm not following along... but how does this relate a subjective reality?

Wouldn't that mean that the brain is perceiving of an objective world?

A worthy question from one who clearly hasn't been following this discussion for so long. So the much-too-short response to the question arpee, goes like this ...

We have two perceptions of the world and ourselves, indeed of existence in general - per our mentality. These being our subjective perception and our objective perception - the name of this thread.

These two perceptions relate us to two entirely differing ways of looking at things; again objective and subjective. Below I will try my hand at an illustrative list of the characteristics of each of these, but in the meantime what I'd like to say is that BOTH of these perceptions are absolutely necessary for us in order to A. KNOW what it is at which we are looking, and B. Experience at what we are looking; for ourselves.

If we knew at what we are looking but had no idea how to experience it, then we wouldn't do so. If we had awareness of how to experience it (which in such circumstances would be impossible), but didn't know at what we were looking, then again nothing.

Now one of these perceptions; the subjective comes into our consciousness entirely from within our physicality, this being through our emotions, in turn fed by our senses and memory. However the other perception (objective) is universal, indeed it (actually HE) is omniscient and omnipresent. HE is also eternal. HE comes to our consciousness from EVERYWHERE.

So we have both potentials already within our capacity, however we favour one, honour one, recognise one, worship one, serve one. But neglect, dishonour, ignore, disfavour and enslave the other.

The biggest problem with this now, is that we serve the one which is severely limiting, profoundly transient and entirely capricious towards us, but we reject and ignore the one which incorporates, has in ready-to-use storage; all the unlimited potential available in the universe - eternally.

We actually do this by default, through ignorance and under somnolence. So the cure to this dilemma is to wake up to the problem, cease entertaining ignorance, and make choice to discover and incorporate the ONLY solution, and subsequently the universe will have no hindrances to opening up HIS doors to reveal all knowledge in existence - for our purposes.

I hope the above goes some way to explaining it for you. Now here is that list of the nature of each of these perceptions.

SUBJECTIVE;Transient, highly limited, severely limiting, reactionary, (in our default state) repeatedly refers us to fear, generates the perception of isolation, fragmentation, death.

OBJECTIVE; Eternal, infinite, liberating, activating, all about LOVE, oneness, life

You will notice the above two lists of course, are complete opposites. And even though the second is an infinitely better choice, yet in our ignorance about these things, we nonetheless remain under subjection to the first.

I think Hosea said it best, with; "My people are being destroyed for their lacking in knowledge"

[arpee]

That makes a lot of sense, but how do you know that it's a "he" and not a "she"? And how do you know that it is love?

[Apopohis Reject]

Originally Posted by Reefs

Seems you have some blind spots and revive your past wherever you go. That's the problemo!

Well how honourable of you. To attempt to use something against me that I NEVER so much as offerred to you, but rather to another. Oh well so be it....

In that pm TO ANOTHER, I was referring to my past (and continuing membership on thescienceforum.com, in which I tried repeatedly to delve into these matters - even though they were a long way short in my understanding nowadays.

In any case, I came up against a member - something like yourself in fact, who was a belligerent pain in the ass, who constantly worked to disrupt my delving and research. It might surprise you at this point, that in sharing concepts such as this, I myself am learning with each post, with each sentence, with each observation of and from others. For instance; when I first joined this forum, I had not yet made the connection in all of this, with perception, being the two ways we relate to things.

So I actually have another member of this forum to thank for the penny dropping in that regard. I'll have to go back and re-discover who it was and now do that.

Hey maybe it was even yourself, huh? In which case, I will thank you twice - once for a few weeks ago, and secondly for your post to which comes this response. I hope you don't use the first of these dishonourably - ie. if it isn't meant for you.